99 réponses à ce sujet

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

ElectricZ wrote...

Intax wrote...

I saved Sidonis on one playthough. All others he dies. Its just silly to let him live, if any one of my 'squad' did the same thing to me that Sidonis did to Garrus I would hunt them down too. It wouldn't be quick and painless like a shot to the head though.

My sentiments exactly, and for the same reason. Put yourself in Garrus' place. You leave the Normandy on a mission. You come back and Tali, Garrus, Mordin, Samara, Grunt, Miranda, Jacob, Jack, Zaeed, Legion, Kasumi and and Thane are all bullet-ridden corpses lying in the mess when you get back. All of them are dead, and nothing is going to bring them back. One of the crew is responsible, someone you trusted, and they got away.

Are you going to let that person go? Regardless of who it is, or why they did it? Would Anderson be able to talk you out of it, or Kaiden, Wrex, Ash or Liara? Would anyone be able to? Would you rest until they were avenged?

I said it in another thread and I say it again... In this case, Garrus wasn't following me on my mission, I was following him on his. If he wanted Sidonis dead for his betrayal, I wasn't going to question him after everything I'd asked him to do on faith alone.

Who woulndn't listen to Wrex? Besides, Sidonis said how he got scared of what the merc bands might do to him, now put yourself in his shoes. Shows how much you care about your squad.

[chapa3]

We are all living beings, capable of discerning our idea of right and wrong. Both Sidonis and Garrus are responsible for their actions.

[Nightwriter]

chapa3 wrote...

We are all living beings, capable of discerning our idea of right and wrong. Both Sidonis and Garrus are responsible for their actions.

A friend intervenes.

A friend wants what is best for you, even if it means saving you from your own consequences.

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

Nightwriter wrote...

chapa3 wrote...

We are all living beings, capable of discerning our idea of right and wrong. Both Sidonis and Garrus are responsible for their actions.

A friend intervenes.

A friend wants what is best for you, even if it means saving you from your own consequences.

Exactly.

[chapa3]

Garrus did not seem that he needed intervention. He dwelled on this for months, enough time for rational thought to form. Garrus is Garrus, a turian vigilante. Changing him would be as changing a krogan warlord to be a pacifist.

[ElectricZ]

Nightwriter wrote...

And supposing you'd discovered it was Garrus who had betrayed the team and gone on the run?

Sometimes, the person who's view of the situation is not compromised or maddened by grief is the person who has the best perspective of the situation, and who can show the most wisdom.

Maddened by grief, we are willing to make decisions that may not be good for us, and not care that it is not good.

Do you honestly envision any situation where Garrus would betray Shepard and kill all of his friends? Put in that position of saving himself or save his friends, I think Garrus would take the bullet. Sidonis made a different choice.

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

Who woulndn't listen to Wrex?
Besides, Sidonis said how he got scared of what the merc bands might do
to him, now put yourself in his shoes. Shows how much you care about your squad.

Of all the ME1 crew, if Wrex was still alive he survived Virmire. He'd have Shepard's back, I'm pretty sure.

Again, Sidonis made a choice. The fact that he claims he didn't know the outcome of his betrayal makes no difference. His friends died. Omega's chance for peace died. If it were me and my entire crew got wiped out because I sold them out... I think I'd welcome death.

But Garrus is the real issue. What's best for him? "This isn't you, either..."  I thought the scene in the aircar before the sniping scene was the most powerful in the game. I would have said all the same things. I didn't want him to make a mistake here. But in the end, and the bottom line... I trusted Garrus. He knew what he needed to get closure. I wasn't going to stand in his way.

[Mallissin]

I didn't work my ass off in ME1 making Garrus a Paragon for him to just go and throw it all away by murdering a coward.



That's Samara's job.

[Onyx Jaguar]

^yep

[Spartas Husky]

Mallissin wrote...

I didn't work my ass off in ME1 making Garrus a Paragon for him to just go and throw it all away by murdering a coward.

That's Samara's job.

HA.

I just pictured sheppherd smacking garrus in the back of the head, on the cab heading to the meeting with Sidonus

" I dont expect you to understand, he is a damn cowa....SMACK"

quoting Milisin:
"listen to me you clibration addict, I didn't work my ass off during mass effect 1 as a paragon to have you just throw all that away, now your gona let him go, or so help me god, ......"

didn't know of a nice snappy funny way to end it, anyone is welcome to try

[Nightwriter]

ElectricZ wrote...

Do you honestly envision any situation where Garrus would betray Shepard and kill all of his friends? Put in that position of saving himself or save his friends, I think Garrus would take the bullet. Sidonis made a different choice.

Well, the example set it up like Shepard walks in to find the whole crew murdered by some outside person.

I thought the analogy needed a little nudge in the accuracy department. It says "one of the crew" did it, but that's not enough. You have to make it someone you know and trust, you have to give a name, make it personal. A shock.

Not so simple then. Just like this situation is not so simple.

[Cheese Elemental]

chapa3 wrote...

Garrus did not seem that he needed intervention. He dwelled on this for months, enough time for rational thought to form.

Enough time to stew in his own rage.
Enough time to be blinded by the desire for revenge.
Enough time to go mad.

[Intax]

Mallissin wrote...

I didn't work my ass off in ME1 making Garrus a Paragon for him to just go and throw it all away by murdering a coward.

That's Samara's job.

The thing is, you didn't make Garrus a paragon. He's Renegade through and through.

He left C-Sec because the lawful brand of justice didn't serve him as he expected.

He tried to become a Spectre so he could serve out justice as he sees fit.

He goes to hunt down a mad scientist with the intention of killing him. You can talk him out of it but he still is not convinced that justice is served.

No sooner do you find him in ME2 he has more brutal justice to dish out.

A leapord can't change its spots.

[ElectricZ]

Nightwriter wrote...

ElectricZ wrote...

Do you honestly envision any situation where Garrus would betray Shepard and kill all of his friends? Put in that position of saving himself or save his friends, I think Garrus would take the bullet. Sidonis made a different choice.

Well, the example set it up like Shepard walks in to find the whole crew murdered by some outside person.

I thought the analogy needed a little nudge in the accuracy department. It says "one of the crew" did it, but that's not enough. You have to make it someone you know and trust, you have to give a name, make it personal. A shock.

Not so simple then. Just like this situation is not so simple.

Let's take it one step further then,

You, as Shepard are captured by Enemy X. Enemy X has the upper hand, and will kill you unless you give up the Normandy crew.

So like Sidonis, you do it to save yourself, and all but one of the team gets wiped out. Pick the survivor: Garrus, Tali, Thane, Miranda, whoever. What do you say to them when they find you? Because none of the ME1 or ME2 crew would be likely to let it go... They're pointing a gun in your face. Do you see Shepard begging for forgiveness? Saying "I didn't know what would happen?" "I'm sorry." "It wasn't my fault." "I did what I had to do to survive."
 
Or do you see yourself, as Shepard, telling your captors to take a flying leap, because you'd die before letting any of your friends suffer before saving yourself.

I think Garrus is that kind of guy. He thought Sidonis was that kind of guy, and was wrong. I don't think I have any rigjht to impose my morals on a trusted, respected friend who believed in me and had my back in everything we'd been through. Random stranger, about to execute another random stranger, I'd intervene and want to get the facts. Garrus Vakarian tells my Shepard this guy needs killing, he's going down.

Now, it's important to note that we're talking about circumstances in a video game where we have the luxury of a save game where we can go back and see the outcome of each decision... But for me this was my feeling through my first playthrough and that's the one I'm sticking with.

And my Shepard, in my own ME universe, would accept the consequences of his actions, unlike Sidonis....

Modifié par ElectricZ, 29 juillet 2010 - 04:23 .

[chapa3]

"Enough time to stew in his own rage.

Enough time to be blinded by the desire for revenge.

Enough time to go mad."



I never knew you were his psychologist.

[Spartas Husky]

Shandepared wrote...

I don't see how wanting vengeance against a man who betrayed you and murdered your friends is 'crazy'.

Not crazy at all, really. But had Garrus not become so dark, and turned so violent, I would have glady let him put a round in Sidonis skull...scales....w/e turians call it lol.

Killing him is right on my books, but just because Garrus has gone down so much he is starting to change.

Besides, Sidonis is suffering as it is... feel so nice he is seeing ghosts.... so nice. Suffer you damn coward.

[FuturePasTimeCE]

who's sidonis?

[chapa3]

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

who's sidonis?

He's Joe the Plumber.

[Inquisitor Recon]

I let Garrus take the shot. I can't say I wouldn't take my revenge in the same position. Out of all of your squad in ME2, I'd have to say that Garrus is one of the most trust-worthy, I kinda feel like Shepard owes him taking out Sidonis.

[Spartas Husky]

chapa3 wrote...

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

who's sidonis?

He's Joe the Plumber.

??? who is Joe the Plumber?

that little kids cartoon guy? who has construction equipment as friends?....

[chapa3]

Joe the Plumber is some guy that popped up in the previous US Presidential Election. Basically, he's a ... plumber that supported McCain and then got caught for tax evasion.

[Inquisitor Recon]

chapa3 wrote...
Joe the Plumber is some guy that popped up in the previous US Presidential Election. Basically, he's a ... plumber that supported McCain and then got caught for tax evasion.

And naturally he caught more flak over it than United States Senators who are guilty of the same crime.

[chapa3]

Heh, actually he became a topic for the page 8 of the liberal newspapers, where they devote small paragraphs, and then he faded away after a few days.

[ElectricZ]

Additional question for ME1 players... Did anyone let Garrus kill Dr. Saleon who stopped him from killing Sidonis in ME2? Or the other way around?



I let him take down both... Maybe I'm just a vindictive bastard.



BTW-- for the record, I think the Sidonis situation poses the most interesting moral question in the game and that my answers are no more valid than anyone else's.

[Spartas Husky]

ReconTeam wrote...

chapa3 wrote...
Joe the
Plumber is some guy that popped up in the previous US Presidential
Election. Basically, he's a ... plumber that supported McCain and then
got caught for tax evasion.

And naturally he caught more flak over it than United States Senators who are guilty of the same crime.

chapa3 wrote...

Heh, actually he became a topic for the page 8 of the liberal newspapers, where they devote small paragraphs, and then he faded away after a few days.

OH... ok I got it. yeah the baldy guy... lol he got more press than that senator who went to argentina to meet up his mistress.. lol

ah the national media... nice piece of work they are on both sides.