Since this has come up on numerous occasions recently, I'd
like start a discussion on the topic of how to best benefit the
player base of this game and still protect the rights of custom
content creators. My one ground rule for the discussion is this:
leave your personal feelings for the Open House group and
certain fellow members of community that you do not like out
of the discussion; if you can't discuss this without bringing
how you believe they acted in other modding communities
into this, please don't post.
I'll start the discussion by saying that this topic has far wider
reaching implications than you may think, though just how far
reaching they are I am not at liberty to say at the moment. I
also will say that I have asked in the past if I can use
someone's content and will likely continue to do so in the
future; this is not contingent on them having specific rules
about using their content, it's more how I was raised. I can
also understand that not everyone will either want to freely
share content or want to use content that has usage
restrictions. What I want to ask are the following questions:
why is the idea of freely sharing your work so frightening to
some of you? Is restricting who uses it really good for the
modding community, when a lot of modders struggle at doing
things that you are good at and could really use the resources
you've created? Are public confrontations between modders
with differing opinions really good for the community? I can
respect the point of view that some have about having put
your heart into something and wanting to be given credit for
creating it, but is restricting the use really the way to ensure
you get credit?
Custom content: restricted or freely shared?
Débuté par
ladydesire
, juil. 29 2010 02:16
Retour en haut
#2
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 02:59
Kesaru
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It's mostly a matter of respect to make sure the person is willing to let you use their work first.
I can't articulate the reason right now that well, except to give you this example.
Imagine you were in a band and had taken months to write a really awesome song, then some other local band comes out of nowhere playing a song nearly identical to yours just with many of lyrics switched around. No discussion or anything, you just see them one day playing a ripoff of your own song, claiming it as their own and getting cheers and possibly even making money off it.
I personally never care if others use my mods for anything as long as they give me credit for it, but I can't speak for others.
I can't articulate the reason right now that well, except to give you this example.
Imagine you were in a band and had taken months to write a really awesome song, then some other local band comes out of nowhere playing a song nearly identical to yours just with many of lyrics switched around. No discussion or anything, you just see them one day playing a ripoff of your own song, claiming it as their own and getting cheers and possibly even making money off it.
I personally never care if others use my mods for anything as long as they give me credit for it, but I can't speak for others.
Modifié par Kesaru, 29 juillet 2010 - 03:06 .
#3
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 03:03
Challseus
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As a user of TONS of custom content for my NWN mods, I'll say right out of the gate, I've never asked permission to use any of it. It wasn't a conscious decision to do something malicious, I just assumed that anything posted to NWVault (the host of all things NWN) was to be used by others.
All of that said, if I now know someone will want my permission to use their content, I'll ask first. Sure, I could just use it, and they can't say anything to me... I guess it's a common courtesy thing? Who knows...
So, to answer the question - Custom content: restricted or freely shared? Probably not the answer people are looking, but I just don't really care. I have one clear goal here: Make the best mod possible. How I obtain custom content needed for it will be handled on a case by case basis. If it's posted to this site, without the author saying I need to ask permission for it, I'll use it, and give them their proper credit. If they want me to ask before using, or have some other rules, I'll abide by it.
I deal with enough politics in my life, just to come home to deal with them here. I'm probably missing the big picture (which I'm sure someone will rightfully point out), but that's my perspective on it.
All of that said, if I now know someone will want my permission to use their content, I'll ask first. Sure, I could just use it, and they can't say anything to me... I guess it's a common courtesy thing? Who knows...
So, to answer the question - Custom content: restricted or freely shared? Probably not the answer people are looking, but I just don't really care. I have one clear goal here: Make the best mod possible. How I obtain custom content needed for it will be handled on a case by case basis. If it's posted to this site, without the author saying I need to ask permission for it, I'll use it, and give them their proper credit. If they want me to ask before using, or have some other rules, I'll abide by it.
I deal with enough politics in my life, just to come home to deal with them here. I'm probably missing the big picture (which I'm sure someone will rightfully point out), but that's my perspective on it.
#4
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 04:46
DarthParametric
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I suspect the main thing people are after is twofold. First, that they are duly credited for any of their work that gets used in other mods. Second, that the author/s of such mods contact them first to ask permission. I'm not sure why this is such a contentious issue here. Surely it's just a matter of common courtesy?
It seems to me that most of the vocal proponents of the "everything made public is fair game" approach have some history with NWN. I can only assume then that the NWN modding community operated in a completely different fashion than any other modding community that I have ever been involved in. Permission and attribution are the norm in my experience, not the exception. As an example, if you joined the KOTOR modding community over at Lucas Forums and released a mod using other people's work without asking permission or crediting them and that was discovered, you would be banned. Many modding communities are rife with individuals that happily rip off other people's work and pass it off as their own. Those of us that have had experience with such things tend to be a little touchy about this subject. I think it's simply a case of authors that make mods freely available to the community not wanting to be dictated to about the manner in which they provide them.
For mods completely comprised of the vanilla DA resources, there is perhaps an argument that their work was never theirs to begin with. Although even in those cases, there will still be some element of completely custom content. Alley of Murders, for example, uses vanilla areas and models, yet the dialogue is all custom recorded. For mods with completely custom content however, models etc, I fail to see how someone can claim that just because it is released publicly for people to enjoy and use in their game, that it is suddenly fair game for other modders to dissect and use in their own publicly released mods without even so much as an acknowledgement.
It seems to me that most of the vocal proponents of the "everything made public is fair game" approach have some history with NWN. I can only assume then that the NWN modding community operated in a completely different fashion than any other modding community that I have ever been involved in. Permission and attribution are the norm in my experience, not the exception. As an example, if you joined the KOTOR modding community over at Lucas Forums and released a mod using other people's work without asking permission or crediting them and that was discovered, you would be banned. Many modding communities are rife with individuals that happily rip off other people's work and pass it off as their own. Those of us that have had experience with such things tend to be a little touchy about this subject. I think it's simply a case of authors that make mods freely available to the community not wanting to be dictated to about the manner in which they provide them.
For mods completely comprised of the vanilla DA resources, there is perhaps an argument that their work was never theirs to begin with. Although even in those cases, there will still be some element of completely custom content. Alley of Murders, for example, uses vanilla areas and models, yet the dialogue is all custom recorded. For mods with completely custom content however, models etc, I fail to see how someone can claim that just because it is released publicly for people to enjoy and use in their game, that it is suddenly fair game for other modders to dissect and use in their own publicly released mods without even so much as an acknowledgement.
#5
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 06:33
FollowTheGourd
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I don't think anybody's ever proposed being able to just take work without accrediting its source. Maybe it is more a NWN thing, but at least in NWN there were plenty of story mods versus mostly just things adding on to the main campaign/extension/DLC, so it's not like everybody was taking custom content for the sake of tweaking it and then calling it their own - although I'm sure that happened like it could anywhere. For example, here's a NWN2 story mod that I recall using a heavy amount of CC (and half the description is attributions): http://nwvault.ign.c...h.Detail&id=310. Of course not everything in NWN was unrestricted either and DA:O isn't NWN etc etc.
And maybe it's still too early (and I know some are still in progress), but extra adventures are in /relative/ short supply as far as I can tell, so it's probably not even a very convincing argument for people to release their stuff for the purpose of reusing it in adventure mods - at least if or when that picks up more.
That's just my slant on it anyway... since then at least there's the extra motivation to have people reuse your work, which is probably somewhat lacking right now in DA.
And maybe it's still too early (and I know some are still in progress), but extra adventures are in /relative/ short supply as far as I can tell, so it's probably not even a very convincing argument for people to release their stuff for the purpose of reusing it in adventure mods - at least if or when that picks up more.
That's just my slant on it anyway... since then at least there's the extra motivation to have people reuse your work, which is probably somewhat lacking right now in DA.
Modifié par FollowTheGourd, 29 juillet 2010 - 06:44 .
#6
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 07:37
Arttis
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Well I could care less what happens to my work unless I make something truly special.Which is unlikely,but if it does happen I would like only that I be mentioned.
If I do not get mentioned and someone steals my work,I cannot say I will be mad or anything.I think its just best to see it as your work being spread around for free.They may even make improvements that I can steal and tweak the original some more.
Best not to get too attached imo.
If I do not get mentioned and someone steals my work,I cannot say I will be mad or anything.I think its just best to see it as your work being spread around for free.They may even make improvements that I can steal and tweak the original some more.
Best not to get too attached imo.
#7
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 07:54
Mengtzu
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And maybe it's still too early (and I know some are still in progress), but extra adventures are in /relative/ short supply as far as I can tell, so it's probably not even a very convincing argument for people to release their stuff for the purpose of reusing it in adventure mods - at least if or when that picks up more.
Wouldn't it seem more likely that lack of community content is a contributing factor to a lack of adventure modules than vice versa?
#8
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 08:21
DarthParametric
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I can't see why it would. What sort of generic "open source" custom content could you even really use in an adventure module that doesn't already exist? To my mind if you are going to create a custom module you have two routes to follow. Either use vanilla assets a la Alley of Murders, or create everything you need from scratch.
#9
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 08:58
Phaenan
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I'll jump once again on the "Open stealing House" train, if you allow me. And even if you don't.
Their index is supposed to be a list of content people can freely adapt, redistribute, and so on. A good idea but a poor and rakish realisation. As a matter of fact, they are not just including "open content". That'd be to much work to properly build that index, mind you. Instead, they are simply including every possible module in their list. Proleric, of course, will swear they do not wish to encourage content stealing yet that automatic opt-in is exactly about that : encouraging stealing.
Moreover, they don't seem that keen about removing restricted content from their index, and play mafioso when they are asked. How ? Simple, they meet removal requests with exigence, as if they had any right to impose themselves :
I don't need someone "reassuring" me I'm understanding wrong. I just don't want anyone claiming my work can be modified, ripped, stealed, repackaged, when I clearly state in my project description that I do not wish to see TWF forked or modded. Been there, suffered that, thanks.
Which all fall back to this thread, really.
"Custom content: restricted or freely shared?", you ask. Don't you dare decide for others. Some modders will freely share all of their work, others will restrict some work, others will just don't care whatever happens to their work. But that's their decision and you folks from the Open House have to start acting like you get it. Get a clue and stop trying to force your views down others throat.
As far as I'm concerned, I give you 24h to remove The Winter Forge and all my other works from your "open content" index without any outstanding condition otherwise I will give you the reputation you long for using my players base.
Their index is supposed to be a list of content people can freely adapt, redistribute, and so on. A good idea but a poor and rakish realisation. As a matter of fact, they are not just including "open content". That'd be to much work to properly build that index, mind you. Instead, they are simply including every possible module in their list. Proleric, of course, will swear they do not wish to encourage content stealing yet that automatic opt-in is exactly about that : encouraging stealing.
Moreover, they don't seem that keen about removing restricted content from their index, and play mafioso when they are asked. How ? Simple, they meet removal requests with exigence, as if they had any right to impose themselves :
Who the heck do you think you are ? Trying to tell me what I ought to do with my work just because you feel whatever you think clever to feel ? Trying to force me changing my stuff according to your tastes, as if you could suddenly impose a new standard upon me ? Do you really think you're the Judge Dread of DA content ? Get over yourselves.Proleric wrote...
Let me reassure you that we absolutely don't want to list your work if it's restricted.
In order to be systematic, and hence fair to everyone, my suggestion is that you change your module description to make your wishes clear.
When you advise me that you've done that, I'll update the index (which is still unpublished).
I don't need someone "reassuring" me I'm understanding wrong. I just don't want anyone claiming my work can be modified, ripped, stealed, repackaged, when I clearly state in my project description that I do not wish to see TWF forked or modded. Been there, suffered that, thanks.
Which all fall back to this thread, really.
"Custom content: restricted or freely shared?", you ask. Don't you dare decide for others. Some modders will freely share all of their work, others will restrict some work, others will just don't care whatever happens to their work. But that's their decision and you folks from the Open House have to start acting like you get it. Get a clue and stop trying to force your views down others throat.
As far as I'm concerned, I give you 24h to remove The Winter Forge and all my other works from your "open content" index without any outstanding condition otherwise I will give you the reputation you long for using my players base.
Modifié par Phaenan, 29 juillet 2010 - 09:25 .
#10
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 09:43
Elvhen Veluthil
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Your logical conclusions are at least faulty. I can't understand how do you jump to the conclusion that the index encourages stealing. It's implied by this site terms of use, and more importantly by the previous legacy of NWN/NWN2 community that when people posts their creation in here, especially resources, they post them so other modders can use them. Thanks-giving, credits, and all other things are in place of course. That's the default situation IMHO. If someone have another plan for their creations, maybe it's better to say so to avoid misunderstandings.
The discussion first must be around the frame the OP has set, then of course we can discuss Open House and it's future. I am not btw representative of Open House or anything like that, but I find the whole concept very much to my liking. Thus my opinion must be taken as my own only and not that of Open House, since Open House is a collective body and all their views are displayed and debated at their proper place, in the page of the project.
The discussion first must be around the frame the OP has set, then of course we can discuss Open House and it's future. I am not btw representative of Open House or anything like that, but I find the whole concept very much to my liking. Thus my opinion must be taken as my own only and not that of Open House, since Open House is a collective body and all their views are displayed and debated at their proper place, in the page of the project.
#11
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 09:58
ChewyGumball
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Correct me if I am wrong, but this quote from your description: " I am only providing my source to allow people understand how I did things. I do not provide it to see TWF forked or translated behind my back." says to me that you are indeed offering whats on your project page as open content. As you stated yourself, it won't compile, and its to help others learn, so I don't see why you object to it being on the index.
I think that the whole issue is about getting credit for your work. There isn't any protection from higher authorities in this community, so people (try to) do it themselves if they feel they won't get proper credit.
Really though, the open house index can serve a secondary purpose. As a community run index, you can REQUEST something be removed or altered and you have a pretty darn good chance of being heard.
I think that the whole issue is about getting credit for your work. There isn't any protection from higher authorities in this community, so people (try to) do it themselves if they feel they won't get proper credit.
Really though, the open house index can serve a secondary purpose. As a community run index, you can REQUEST something be removed or altered and you have a pretty darn good chance of being heard.
Modifié par ChewyGumball, 29 juillet 2010 - 09:59 .
#12
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 10:08
Phaenan
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Don't mac me off like a two bob mate, just remove my content from your index.Elvhen Veluthil wrote...
Excuses excuses excuses excuses, all I hear is stealing endorsing excuses
I don't care about your views, your open sharing dream, or anything, and I certainly didn't wait for the Open House revelation before I started sharing anything DA related. Which is by the way more than many of you Open House folks.
Well, here you go : that's wrong. TWF is not open, and won't ever be open. Some of my other works are (and yet I don't want them on the Open Stealing House either ; screw me twice shame on me) but not TWF. I'm pretty nice and understanding when people contact me looking for a way to integrate TWF with their module or addon - my EEA system was actually designed for that - but that's on a case to case basis and certainly not a rule I want to see forced upon me by the Open House folks. Let them be generous with their own work.ChewyGumball wrote...
Correct me if I am wrong, but this
quote from your description says to me that you are indeed
offering whats on your project page as open content
I did request and got the shaft, with some illegitimate conditions spreaded on it. And for your information, others are still waiting for Proleric to deign take the removal requests into consideration, no matter what he may publicly affirm with his "let me reassure you" lines. If you want the community consideration, you may want to start by some house cleaning about your "our way or the highway" evident policy.As a community run index, you can REQUEST something be removed or altered and you have a pretty darn good chance of being heard.
Edit :
There, I made it very clear. Thanks to you people not acceding to my legitimate request before I start raising my voice, I updated my projects description as follows :
I do not endorse the "Open House" group, do not want to be associated with their dishonest content stealing propaganda, hence The Winter Forge shall not be added to their index of so-called "open content".
You can thank your reluctance for that. Hopefully, only a few thousands players will be able to see that note each passing month. Of course, I can still make it clearer - on the BSN and Nexus - if my work isn't removed from your index by tomorrow morning.
Modifié par Phaenan, 29 juillet 2010 - 10:36 .
#13
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 10:33
Arttis
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Whats the point of open house anyway?BW site allows anyone with a BW account to go download.and modify anything they want anyway.Going on forums having people scream about how you steal there work encourages fear within people who are not completely aware of the situation or do not really care to find out, so they try to protect their mods.
I can see how community contest would be good as it encourages sharing with competition and rewards.Well whatever I have made a pointless group so I guess I can not say much.
I can see how community contest would be good as it encourages sharing with competition and rewards.Well whatever I have made a pointless group so I guess I can not say much.
Modifié par Arttis, 29 juillet 2010 - 10:34 .
#14
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 10:47
Talisander
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Arttis: Exactly. Open House is doing more harm than good, because it is giving people something to shout at.
I've joined open house because even if I don't agree with Proleric's tone, I absolutely want to encourage sharing within this community (not currently working apparently) and even more importantly, have a system for organizing content for builders, which is better than the current unsorted spam graveyard of the social site.
Phaenan: The only reason I find Proleric's posts more painful to read than your current ones is that I agree with the fundamental value of gaining strength from each other by sharing our work, which none of us are going to profit from anyway, just as Bioware has shared their work with us. And so seeing him anger people hurts more. I'm not sure what your stake is in all this, but here you're yelling at perfectly reasonable people and starting to sound like more of a zealot than Proleric, which, I think you'll admit, is an accomplishment
I've joined open house because even if I don't agree with Proleric's tone, I absolutely want to encourage sharing within this community (not currently working apparently) and even more importantly, have a system for organizing content for builders, which is better than the current unsorted spam graveyard of the social site.
Phaenan: The only reason I find Proleric's posts more painful to read than your current ones is that I agree with the fundamental value of gaining strength from each other by sharing our work, which none of us are going to profit from anyway, just as Bioware has shared their work with us. And so seeing him anger people hurts more. I'm not sure what your stake is in all this, but here you're yelling at perfectly reasonable people and starting to sound like more of a zealot than Proleric, which, I think you'll admit, is an accomplishment
Modifié par Talisander, 29 juillet 2010 - 10:47 .
#15
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 10:54
Talisander
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Phaenan:
I see why you're upset now, but are you sure your project is on the Open House list? I can't find it anywhere...
More important as a general point, you seem to have missed the note at the top of the "open stealing house" index:
It reads:
"WORK IN PROGRESS : DO NOT USE"
Is this really worth attacking people over?
I see why you're upset now, but are you sure your project is on the Open House list? I can't find it anywhere...
More important as a general point, you seem to have missed the note at the top of the "open stealing house" index:
It reads:
"WORK IN PROGRESS : DO NOT USE"
Is this really worth attacking people over?
Modifié par Talisander, 29 juillet 2010 - 10:57 .
#16
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 11:02
Phaenan
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Well that's the funny thing. I do share, and I even agree that the basic idea behind the Open House ain't that bad.
But having my arm twisted by Proleric just doesn't sit well with me. Since resolving the issue nicely and quietly through PM didn't work, I simply resorted to other methods. But as many others here, I wish I didn't have to. Honestly, what's the point of your Open House concept if your "charismatic" leader is so damn good at ignoring legitimate demands and getting on people nerves, and more importanly what's the point of your Open House if it ends up putting modders off. Just like how some of you are constantly pushing the BSN rules up modders nose ; except from encouraging people to remove their content from the BSN, you won't achieve anything this way.
So basically, yes I'm coming out strong. Then again, whose fault is it. I simply don't like your - yes, I'm generalizing - Open House rules being forced upon me.
If, and that's a big fat "if", if you did have a far more proper approach believe me : my reaction would have been much meeker and civil. And less public.
But having my arm twisted by Proleric just doesn't sit well with me. Since resolving the issue nicely and quietly through PM didn't work, I simply resorted to other methods. But as many others here, I wish I didn't have to. Honestly, what's the point of your Open House concept if your "charismatic" leader is so damn good at ignoring legitimate demands and getting on people nerves, and more importanly what's the point of your Open House if it ends up putting modders off. Just like how some of you are constantly pushing the BSN rules up modders nose ; except from encouraging people to remove their content from the BSN, you won't achieve anything this way.
So basically, yes I'm coming out strong. Then again, whose fault is it. I simply don't like your - yes, I'm generalizing - Open House rules being forced upon me.
If, and that's a big fat "if", if you did have a far more proper approach believe me : my reaction would have been much meeker and civil. And less public.
Modifié par Phaenan, 29 juillet 2010 - 11:05 .
#17
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 11:04
Phaenan
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Talisander wrote...
Phaenan:
I see why you're upset now, but are you sure your project is on the Open House list? I can't find it anywhere...
There :
http://code.google.c...ntIndexGameplay
Seing how reluctant your officers are to accede requests when your index is still a draft, I can't really imagine myself waiting for the index to be set in stone. Boy, what will modders have to do to have their content removed by then. Tickle you lot to death ?Talisander wrote...
"WORK IN PROGRESS : DO NOT USE"
Is this really worth attacking people over?
Edit :
And it worked. My content was finally removed from the Open House index.
I guess that's easy. Just don't let Proleric reject your request or - worst - sweet talk you into culpableness. Just raise your voice a tad.
In return I removed my comment from my projects descriptions, only leaving the "do not index" notice. That's only square.
Modifié par Phaenan, 29 juillet 2010 - 11:09 .
#18
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 11:11
Talisander
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I honestly don't see it anywhere on there 
Please believe me, I'm not lying to make you look bad or anything. I search for Winter and for Phaenan and I come up with nothing on the page you linked...
Please believe me, I'm not lying to make you look bad or anything. I search for Winter and for Phaenan and I come up with nothing on the page you linked...
#19
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 11:25
Talisander
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Oh good, someone must have found it and removed it!
For the record, I couldn't find your project anywhere when I made my first two posts, but I was looking on the page linked from the Open House group here on the social site. This is where I was looking: http://code.google.c...penContentIndex
The page you linked is the "gameplay" page of the wiki, which I wasn't looking in, and actually isn't linked to from the main index page. It's a set of links for players, according to the heading, which will eventually be merged with the "Player" database. It says so at the top of that page:
¶To be merged into the main player index eventually.
-- which means the content of that page is not only not linked from the main page, but isn't meant for builder use, as far as I know.
I guess what I'm saying is, if you do believe that organizing things for builders better than they are now is a good idea, please tell the other builders you know who are impatient to have their stuff removed that the current wiki list is very much a work-in-progress and not meant for use, which as far as I know is mostly the work of one person (Proleric). Ideally people could wait for the thing to be finished, then raise a protest if they are not happy.
For the record, I couldn't find your project anywhere when I made my first two posts, but I was looking on the page linked from the Open House group here on the social site. This is where I was looking: http://code.google.c...penContentIndex
The page you linked is the "gameplay" page of the wiki, which I wasn't looking in, and actually isn't linked to from the main index page. It's a set of links for players, according to the heading, which will eventually be merged with the "Player" database. It says so at the top of that page:
¶To be merged into the main player index eventually.
-- which means the content of that page is not only not linked from the main page, but isn't meant for builder use, as far as I know.
I guess what I'm saying is, if you do believe that organizing things for builders better than they are now is a good idea, please tell the other builders you know who are impatient to have their stuff removed that the current wiki list is very much a work-in-progress and not meant for use, which as far as I know is mostly the work of one person (Proleric). Ideally people could wait for the thing to be finished, then raise a protest if they are not happy.
Modifié par Talisander, 29 juillet 2010 - 11:39 .
#20
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 11:40
DarthParametric
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So as OH apparently espouses attribution, the main point of contention is permission. OH proponents believe they don't need permission, based on the EULA, and that anything uploaded to the Social site is free for anyone to use and re-purpose as they see fit, whilst some of us disagree with that notion. It would seem to me then that the only option for some semblance of harmony is for anyone that doesn't share OH's viewpoint to only post their mods on alternative sites like DA Nexus.
#21
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 11:45
ladydesire
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Phaenan, which is easier, in your opinion; sending PMs to upwards of 600 people to ask if they want their content included in an index before starting it, or making the index and inviting people whose content is on it to view it before public release and remove it then? Either way, going through the current content listing on the project site had to be done to be able to find out who to contact.
#22
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 12:42
JasonNH
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Make the Open House opt-in and the most pressing issue of division is over here. The modding community is too small to be deepening old fractions and creating new ones. If the Open House wants to be convincing in its mission to be for the community rather than the self-interests of its founders, then it shouldn't come out of the gate with a policy that is clearly upsetting to valuable contributors here.
I think ladydesire has left out one of the options in her response to Phaenan. Rather than sending PMs to upwards of 600 people, you simply continue to advertise your group and invite people to join. Start with the most successful modders and ask them to include a link to it from their projects if they share your goals and ideals. Recruit people to invite others into the fold. Grow through grass roots expansion. Earn your respect and place as a group within the community rather than assuming it. If the community is overwhelmingly on your side, it will happen eventually, so be patient. If it's not, then the community doesn't share your vision and you'll need to come to terms with that. As it stands now, I would never join the group with its approach of putting the responsibility on modders to find your listing and take the initiative to be removed. This is a shame because in general, I like the concept of an Open House.
I think ladydesire has left out one of the options in her response to Phaenan. Rather than sending PMs to upwards of 600 people, you simply continue to advertise your group and invite people to join. Start with the most successful modders and ask them to include a link to it from their projects if they share your goals and ideals. Recruit people to invite others into the fold. Grow through grass roots expansion. Earn your respect and place as a group within the community rather than assuming it. If the community is overwhelmingly on your side, it will happen eventually, so be patient. If it's not, then the community doesn't share your vision and you'll need to come to terms with that. As it stands now, I would never join the group with its approach of putting the responsibility on modders to find your listing and take the initiative to be removed. This is a shame because in general, I like the concept of an Open House.
Modifié par JasonNH, 29 juillet 2010 - 01:49 .
#23
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 12:54
Mengtzu
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DarthParametric wrote...
I can't see why it would. What sort of generic "open source" custom content could you even really use in an adventure module that doesn't already exist? To my mind if you are going to create a custom module you have two routes to follow. Either use vanilla assets a la Alley of Murders, or create everything you need from scratch.
Almost anything would be useful. If you're a modder like myself, lacking the art skills to make your own resources and having reused most areas and monster in the game already in released modules, the lack of additional assets feels quite limiting :<
When I wrote Fragments of Ferelden I had in mind Adam Miller's mods for NWN, where he started introducing new tilesets and creatures from the community as he went along (particularly Demon, IIRC). I assumed I'd be able to do that to tell stories not set in Thedas, but it hasn't really eventuated yet. My next project will hit most of the areas and resources Fragments and classic Week haven't already; after that I'm not sure what I'll do.
#24
Posté 29 juillet 2010 - 01:10
Talisander
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DarthParametric wrote...
So as OH apparently espouses attribution, the main point of contention is permission. OH proponents believe they don't need permission, based on the EULA, and that anything uploaded to the Social site is free for anyone to use and re-purpose as they see fit, whilst some of us disagree with that notion. It would seem to me then that the only option for some semblance of harmony is for anyone that doesn't share OH's viewpoint to only post their mods on alternative sites like DA Nexus.
You're generalizing way too much, Darth. There has been disagreement on the Open House group discussion about exactly what you're talking about. Proleric advocates including the EULA in the discussion, while others do not. I do not.
I myself disagree that permission for use should be the defining issue. I will always ask permission to use someone else's work in my mod. In fact, I enjoy doing it, because sometimes it gives me an excuse to get to know other people who enjoy the creative side of gaming.
I think even Proleric would disagree that eliminating permission for use is his main goal in Open House -- look in the last thread about this mess. It wasn't the author wanting to be asked for permission for use that made Proleric start the argument, it was asking that when incorporating the author's content into your own work you consult the author at any future time whenever you want to distribute your own mod.
There's a pretty big difference between those two things, and Proleric was actually right to point out people should actually mention such things before letting people download and start using their work. Asking up front for permission to use versus effectively asking for final say on distrution rights of a free project. Proleric just said it in a way that was harsh and over the top, and another well-meaning modder was turned against Open House...
The problem is, Proleric is trying to push the community to be more open, even to the point of discouraging people from asking to be contacted by people using their work, and it is not surprising that the community pushes back. I disagree with him in this regard. Do you guys think I should leave Open House over this? Or should I try to make it more what all builders want? I 'm really asking -- I don't have an answer right now. One of first things it says on the Open House group page is "We self-organise as a voluntary association of equals." No one rules Open House as far as I know. If you disgree with some of the specific positions, why not join the group and tell the people currently doing all the work (Proleric and maybe a few others) what you think?
The greatest good that can come out of Open House is what is going on right now: The creation of a database which actually works for builders, which is well organized and will make everyone's work spent with the toolset exponentially more valuable as it grows with time.
I believe that just seeing a list of all the good things people have shared with the community already will be the greatest inspiration for people to share their work. That is, if it's not poisoned by over the top rhetoric and drama before it even gets made.
Alex
