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The Crimes Of Cerberus (or a look at how being pro-Cerberus makes no sense anymore)*Spoilers for Retribution*


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#1
RiouHotaru

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Welp, I managed to learn about the events of Mass Effect Retribution, and I think that Bioware trying to use Pet The Dog moments to pad Cerberus out and make it fluffier have met with disaster.  There's been any threads where people defend Cerberus or claim that "Cerberus does what is best".  However, their growing list of crimes against humanity and the galactic community just keep getting bigger and bigger.  I swear if Cerberus has anything to do with the Shadow Broker when the new DLC comes out I may just throw up my hands and rest my case.  Anyway, I've complied a rather concise list of Cerberus' known nasty sins here, just in case the pro-Cerberus crowd thinks I'm off my rocker:

Akuze
This is arguably the most prominent crime on their list, seeing as it's possible they're directly responsible for luring the marines and the thresher maws together.  Toombs claims this possibility is the truth, but at best, Cerberus knew where the marines were going and did nothing to stop them, wanting to observe and measure the result and outcome.  The fact they then kidnap Toombs and experiment on him, probably for years, is just insult upon injury.

Admiral Kohoku
Another prominent crime in Cerberus' belt, they killed Kahoku for tracking them down, to keep him from exposing them (little good it did them, Shepard finds them and finishes the job).  However, the apologists like to claim that Kahoku was either a traitor or a "security leak" (under this silly theory that Cerberus is still a part of the Alliance).  But nowhere do the apologists explain the reasoning behind Cerberus purposefully luring his men out just so a thresher maw would ruin them.  There's nothing of importance in that system, and unless Cerberus was trying to replicate Akuze, this action seems almost purely for the lulz.

Chasca, aka UNC: Colony Of The Dead
This one gets a lot of attention for the heavily debated fact of whether or not Cerberus was responsible for this, mostly due to the claim that there is no specific information implicating Cerberus, except for the presence of their agent.  However, the game explicitly states that Cerberus is responsible, meaning they had the Dragon's Teeth delivered to the colony with the intention of having every member of the colony turned into husks for study.  Several logs speak of the Cerberus agent who was present who left, and finishing the mission nets you the message "Cerberus has a lot to answer for."  There's really no way to argue against this when the GAME ITSELF declares you guilty.

Exogeni and the Thorian Creeper
The only possible way that Cerberus could've gotten Creepers is if they either have plants inside of Exogeni, or if Exogeni itself is one of Cerberus' corporate fronts.  I'm inclined to believe the latter, because otherwise it makes almost no sense for Exogeni to do what they did.  To purposefully use the colonists as a test group like that is massively unethical.  Such a corporation trying that today would be committing corporate and financial suicide.  Why then would Exogeni take the risk of their operations being uncovered and their entire company ruined?  Not to mention there are several logs on the servers that talk about Cerberus.

The Rachni
Again, Cerberus sticking their fingers into something they shouldn't.  Somehow samples from Noveria were taken and intended to be used in various experiments, but like anything Cerberus seems to do, it blew up in their face.  While this isn't per say a crime so much as them being incredibly stupid, it's still a mark against them seeing as how horribly wrong this particular project went.

Mass Effect: Ascension
Yeah...Cerberus decides to go screw with the Migrant Fleet because TIM is worried about them having the biggest fleet of ships, and oh yeah, Grayson and his daughter, and infiltrating the Ascension Project.  Wow, good one Cerberus, let's go around antagonizing ENTIRE alien races because they happen to have a lot of ships and made the geth, despite the fact most of those ships aren't probably meant strictly for combat!

Trident
The Cerberus Daily News reported back in January about a Cerberus Cell in the Terminus Systems which was experimenting with biotic-suppressants which had a number of incredibly nasty and potentially lethal side effects on humans AND aliens, dubbed the "torture den."  On top of that, they decide to blow up police cars and kill law enforcement to spring one of their allies out of jail.  Hard to deny you're terrorists now, huh?

Project Overlord
Sweet Jesus where to begin.  Attempting to create a virus-like "figurehead" to control the geth as a means of attaining "bloodless victory" over a race (yes, the geth can likely be called a race all on it's own) that you learn latter only a small minority have any violent intentions, and for the most part simply want to be left alone.  On top of that, you use an autistic man to power your new VI/AI/whatever-David-is-now regardless of the ethical issues with that, and then send me an email about how this'll set back our research (which isn't even necessary btw) by several decades...yeah, screw you TIM.

Tetlin/Pragia
Yeah, experimentation on humans is already a morally gray area approaching on black, let's just go full-black by experimenting on children, torturing them and killing them in order to decide what is or isn't a good procedure to use on one specific child (Jack aka Subject Zero) because she has incredible biotic powers that you gave her a result of earlier torture and experimentation, which was likely done of them for YEARS.

Mass Effect: Retribution
With the release of Retribution, Cerberus' already shaking reputation just goes straight the crapper and doesn't recover...While I go into details, for the sake of those who may not have read it, or may not wish to have it spoiled, I'll simply leave this URL here for your perusal: http://social.biowar...index/3263041/1 However, to sum it up?  TIM kidnaps Grayson because TIM wants revenge, puts Reaper-tech in a dude, dude runs amok, TIM gets his s*** ruined.

Yandoa
Brought to my attention by a commentor, this is apparently an incident from Ascension in which Cerberus engineered an accident in order to purposefully expose colonists (the colony's name is the title) to Eezo in order to taint them and hopefully fuel some biotic babies.  I quote from the Mass Effect Wiki:

"The 'industrial accident' over Yandoa was actually orchestrated by Cerberus, and committed in an act of sabotage by Paul Grayson. After being exposed to eezo in utero, Gillian was later given to Paul by the Illusive Man; the fate of her parents back on Yandoa is not known."



That about sums up their major crimes.  TIM has to be one of the worse human resource management persons I've ever seen.  He hires morally challenged people and throws money at them to solve a problem or research new tech.  But when thing get ethically suspect or go straight down the crapper, TIM is quick to put up his hands and claim plausible deniability.  This means at best, TIM is a grossly negligent supervisor who can't seem to hire anyone decent to save his own life, or he's intentionally choosing the ethically suspect individuals knowing full-well what will result, but claims to condemn it just so he doesn't look like a Complete Monster.

I dunno about you...but I can't see a valid reason to support them beyond what was given to help stop the Collectors.

Modifié par RiouHotaru, 29 juillet 2010 - 03:41 .


#2
chapa3

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You forgot the Singapore Station element zero disastor. Cerberus orchestrated that.

#3
Whatever42

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Every single one of those points can be spin doctored. And, knowing this forum, will soon be. Prepare for spin spin spin. Deny deny deny. I swear, the trolls on this board are all aspiring political handlers.

#4
RiouHotaru

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chapa3 wrote...

You forgot the Singapore Station element zero disastor. Cerberus orchestrated that.


If you can give me details, I'll add that to the list!

#5
RiouHotaru

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Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Every single one of those points can be spin doctored. And, knowing this forum, will soon be. Prepare for spin spin spin. Deny deny deny. I swear, the trolls on this board are all aspiring political handlers.


Oh trust me, I'm honestly hoping for them to try and spin these away.  It'll only make my argument better.

#6
MTN Dew Fanatic

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Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Every single one of those points can be spin doctored. And, knowing this forum, will soon be. Prepare for spin spin spin. Deny deny deny. I swear, the trolls on this board are all aspiring political handlers.



Such as Zulu.

#7
Legion 2.5

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Here is one, The Illusive man has become power-hungry.

#8
chapa3

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Mistaken it for Yandoa disastor. http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Yandoa



Although the Singapore Station disastor did seem very suspicious.

#9
thegreateski

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Yup. Cerberus is full of bastards.

They still have my support. At least until the Reapers are dead. Then I'm going to clean house and repurpose them. TIM may or may not be left alive.

Modifié par thegreateski, 29 juillet 2010 - 03:34 .


#10
2papercuts

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I was hoping that this was going to show why Cerberus are incompetent at everything.

#11
RiouHotaru

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2papercuts wrote...

I was hoping that this was going to show why Cerberus are incompetent at everything.


It does if you think about it.  A good number of these projects blew up in their faces, and TIM obviously sucks at hiring anyone with even a barest shred of moral decency.

#12
Legion 2.5

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Hey RiouHotaru, I got one crime. They put the Illusive man in charge of Cerberus. He has gone power-mad as of mass effect 2 ending.

#13
2papercuts

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You should post this in Why do people destroy the Collector base?

#14
RedTracer7

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RiouHotaru wrote...

Admiral Kohoku
Another prominent crime in Cerberus' belt, they killed Kahoku for tracking them down, to keep him from exposing them (little good it did them, Shepard finds them and finishes the job).  However, the apologists like to claim that Kahoku was either a traitor or a "security leak" (under this silly theory that Cerberus is still a part of the Alliance).  But nowhere do the apologists explain the reasoning behind Cerberus purposefully luring his men out just so a thresher maw would ruin them.  There's nothing of importance in that system, and unless Cerberus was trying to replicate Akuze, this action seems almost purely for the lulz.


I have to disagree with the point you are making.  The fact that we do not know enough about Cerberus' intentions here means that we cannot draw an ethical conclusion from this incident.  Jumping to "they did it for the lulz" just shows that our information isn't complete.  It would be like writing a review for a book that you have not finished.  This is not to say, however, that Cerberus is thus justified in their actions.  We simply do not know.

Modifié par RedTracer7, 29 juillet 2010 - 03:41 .


#15
chapa3

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As for the Kahoku thing, for all we know, that Cerberus group may have just went rogue.

#16
RedTracer7

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RiouHotaru wrote...

Trident
The Cerberus Daily News reported back in January about a Cerberus Cell in the Terminus Systems which was experimenting with biotic-suppressants which had a number of incredibly nasty and potentially lethal side effects on humans AND aliens, dubbed the "torture den."  On top of that, they decide to blow up police cars and kill law enforcement to spring one of their allies out of jail.  Hard to deny you're terrorists now, huh?


This is another case of "not-enough-info".  A biotic-suppressant would be a useful weapon, especially against Asari foes.  It makes sense that Cerberus would pursue it.  But we do not know the extent of their experiments, nor do we know what the alien/human ratio was.  

As to the cop-killing, it can been seen as an acceptable action, if they were attempting to abscond with any aquired information or skilled personnel.  But to call them terrorists is to take a biased stance.  Collecting and hiding weapons was illegal in colonial America.  But the 'minutemen' involved in the battles of Lexington and Concord did just that.  Does that make them terrorists?  Or were they taking neccessarily harsh actions in order to defend a greater good?

#17
RiouHotaru

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RedTracer7 wrote...

I have to disagree with the point you are making.  The fact that we do not know enough about Cerberus' intentions here means that we cannot draw an ethical conclusion from this incident.  Jumping to "they did it for the lulz" just shows that our information isn't complete.  It would be like writing a review for a book that you have not finished.  This is not to say, however, that Cerberus is thus justified in their actions.  We simply do not know.


Point taken, but it's still highly suspect.  It's a system out where Liara is (Artemis Tau) and the Cerberus Base Kahoku goes looking for is in another part of the galaxy entirely.  So, based on what I know, it feels out-of-place, especially since there's nothing in that system of any importance to Cerberus (Unless they were after Liara too?!).  You're right that my "for the lulz" conclusion is highly suspect, but I think it'd take someone severely lacking in morals to purposefully lure those marines just so they'll get killed by a Thresher Maw.

#18
RedTracer7

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RiouHotaru wrote...

Point taken, but it's still highly suspect.  It's a system out where Liara is (Artemis Tau) and the Cerberus Base Kahoku goes looking for is in another part of the galaxy entirely.  So, based on what I know, it feels out-of-place, especially since there's nothing in that system of any importance to Cerberus (Unless they were after Liara too?!).  You're right that my "for the lulz" conclusion is highly suspect, but I think it'd take someone severely lacking in morals to purposefully lure those marines just so they'll get killed by a Thresher Maw.


I am not about to say that Cerberus is a paragon of trans-species relations.  They kill people.  

But they are consistantly acting in humanity's best interests, helping to strengthen human knowledge utilizing methods that many see an unmoral.  But they are also efficient.  The knowledge gained in the deaths of a few marines could take years in a laboratory.  The real question is if these dubious actions are justified by the substantial rewards.

#19
RiouHotaru

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RedTracer7 wrote...

This is another case of "not-enough-info".  A biotic-suppressant would be a useful weapon, especially against Asari foes.  It makes sense that Cerberus would pursue it.  But we do not know the extent of their experiments, nor do we know what the alien/human ratio was.  

As to the cop-killing, it can been seen as an acceptable action, if they were attempting to abscond with any aquired information or skilled personnel.  But to call them terrorists is to take a biased stance.  Collecting and hiding weapons was illegal in colonial America.  But the 'minutemen' involved in the battles of Lexington and Concord did just that.  Does that make them terrorists?  Or were they taking neccessarily harsh actions in order to defend a greater good?


By the way, I want to thank you for the civil manner in which you're pointing these out.  Hard to find polite, civil discourse here on this forum board sometimes.

And as for a 'not-enough-info' scenario, there was testimony in one of the Daily News articles from a survivor who was saved from the 'torture den' who described not only the effects of the drug, but the conditions under which they were kept.  I couldn't find the exact article though.  Also, does it matter what ratio of aliens-to-humans there are?  They're still experimenting on civilians, which I'd think would be morally atrocious regardless of who the victim is.

As for the cop-killing...I just don't think it's justified.  The 'minutemen' were at a time when those actions were necessary in defense of their country, and the country KNEW that.  (Or at least I think they did.  I don't recall the minutemen being prosecuted by the colonists)  But nowadays you can't justify killing police officers because you're "serving the greater good."  It's still technically terrorism.  After all, they didn't shoot to disable, or set to stun.  There was a clear intent to kill.  I could go into greater detail with an example, but I don't wish to dive into the real world politics of 21st century terrorism.  I'd like to keep this in the realm of Mass Effect.

#20
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RedTracer7 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Point taken, but it's still highly suspect.  It's a system out where Liara is (Artemis Tau) and the Cerberus Base Kahoku goes looking for is in another part of the galaxy entirely.  So, based on what I know, it feels out-of-place, especially since there's nothing in that system of any importance to Cerberus (Unless they were after Liara too?!).  You're right that my "for the lulz" conclusion is highly suspect, but I think it'd take someone severely lacking in morals to purposefully lure those marines just so they'll get killed by a Thresher Maw.


I am not about to say that Cerberus is a paragon of trans-species relations.  They kill people.  

But they are consistantly acting in humanity's best interests, helping to strengthen human knowledge utilizing methods that many see an unmoral.  But they are also efficient.  The knowledge gained in the deaths of a few marines could take years in a laboratory.  The real question is if these dubious actions are justified by the substantial rewards.

I wouldn't necessarily say efficient. I'd say they're closer to being incompetent.

#21
alienatedflea

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well i dont think its all bad...i mean seriously...if youre the kind of person where the ends justify the means then there will be failures along the way...and for all fairness...why do we only see failures in the OP's post?? there has to be some successes...

#22
alienatedflea

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this thread is just a smear campaign against Cerberus...

#23
RiouHotaru

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RedTracer7 wrote...
I am not about to say that Cerberus is a paragon of trans-species relations.  They kill people.  

But they are consistantly acting in humanity's best interests, helping to strengthen human knowledge utilizing methods that many see an unmoral.  But they are also efficient.  The knowledge gained in the deaths of a few marines could take years in a laboratory.  The real question is if these dubious actions are justified by the substantial rewards.


My counter-response to this is then: Will humanity ever see these rewards?  I mean, Cerberus has been operating rogue for quite a long period of time.  Is there any guarantee that anything positive they gain will find it's way back to humanity?  I have doubts about this, considering I'm sure the Alliance would not condone the methods used to gain these "advancements", and TIM's own stance is "Cerberus IS humanity!" (his words too!).  So isn't it more like the rewards will just be used by Cerberus to advance "humanity's" interest (aka, Cerberus)?

#24
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alienatedflea wrote...

well i dont think its all bad...i mean seriously...if youre the kind of person where the ends justify the means then there will be failures along the way...and for all fairness...why do we only see failures in the OP's post?? there has to be some successes...

well shepard...

#25
RedTracer7

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RiouHotaru wrote...

By the way, I want to thank you for the civil manner in which you're pointing these out.  Hard to find polite, civil discourse here on this forum board sometimes.


Well, if my Tropes are to be believed, I'm apparently quite the 'Cerberus Defender.  :P  I've found civil discussion furthers a conversation far farther than other methods.

As to your other points, you make some good ones.  I wrote out a rather long retort just now, only to have it lost when my browser had a hiccup.  I don't have the heart to repost it, so I'll give you this one.  The Actual Text also seems to lean in your favor.