397 réponses à ce sujet

[mosor]

Nightwriter wrote...

I think I see the point Sanada was trying to make a few pages back, though.

In all of the "sacrifices" that the Illusive Man makes, he is sacrificing absolutely nothing himself. All the damage that his backfired experiments causes - it hurts him not at all. 

He continually sacrifices other people for his cause. It's always other people that get hurt. He sees no blowback.

Since he is the self-appointed ruler of his self-appointed organization, he alone holds the judgment for whether or not sacrificing those lives is worth it or not.

Actually he's sacrificing a lot. Cerberus is a 24/7 job for him. He's not sipping mai tai's on some exclusive resort doing all this in his spare time. He sacrificed living a luxurious billionarie's lifestyle, any sort of fame, prominance, even personhood in favor of annonimity, In all probability he sacrificed relationships with friends or family that he had in his previous life to do what he feels is needed to keep humanity safe. If you really think about it, thats a pretty huge sacrifice. It's one thing for a person who has nothing, to sacrifice themselves. It's quite another for a person who has everything and throw it all for a cause he believes in.

Modifié par mosor, 30 juillet 2010 - 10:43 .

[thegreateski]

wiggles89 wrote...
Their "own" dictators? Need I bring up the role the US had in the rise of Hussein in Iraq & the Islamist extremist elements in Afghanistan?

Being responsible for the rise of something does not make a person accountable for the actions of the "thing".

Now lets drop this stupid conversation and get back to the other stupid conversation about TIM and Cerberus.

[Nightwriter]

thegreateski wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

You cannot compare TIM to any political or government leader in history. Those people were appointed to that position by the people. And even if the people didn't appoint them, they at least agreed to follow them. The position was official.

Stop acting like TIM is a similar official. 

I would like to refute this actually.

TIM would not have any power if people did not agree to his leadership. Cerberus is actually a rather small organization when it comes down to it.

There are 150 people in Cerberus who agree to TIM's leadership.

But as self-proclaimed representative of humanity's interests, TIM makes decisions on behalf of billions, none of whom recognize his leadership.

[mosor]

thegreateski wrote...

Well everybody seems bound and determined to use the US as a whipping boy when it comes to politics. They may or may not be right with their points but i'm sick of seeing the US as the "go to guy" for examples in politics.

Don't take it too personally. The only reason for that is that it's the only country whose politics and machinations are familiar to people from all parts of the world. Every country has their dirty laundry, but if you want to do an analogy, you want to make an anology that is universally understood instantly.

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

You cannot compare TIM to any political or government leader in history. Those people were appointed to that position by the people. And even if the people didn't appoint them, they at least agreed to follow them. The position was official.

Stop acting like TIM is a similar official. 

What does that have to do with anything?

Nightwriter: TIM sacrifices lives that are not his own when it is not his place.

Shand: So has every other leader in history.

Nightwriter: It was their place.

[mosor]

Nightwriter wrote...

There are 150 people in Cerberus who agree to TIM's leadership.

But as self-proclaimed representative of humanity's interests, TIM makes decisions on behalf of billions, none of whom recognize his leadership.

Whats the point? If TIM wants to be a protector of humanity, that's his choice. He doesn't need the conscent of the multitude for that.  Cerberus actions may affect billions of people, however so do Shepard's, so do the actions of plenty of other unelected people and corporations. That's just life.

Modifié par mosor, 30 juillet 2010 - 11:04 .

[Nightwriter]

mosor wrote...

Actually he's sacrificing a lot. Cerberus is a 24/7 job for him. He's not sipping mai tai's on some exclusive resort doing all this in his spare time. He sacrificed living a luxurious billionarie's lifestyle, any sort of fame, prominance, even personhood in favor of annonimity, In all probability he sacrificed relationships with friends or family that he had in his previous life to do what he feels is needed to keep humanity safe. If you really think about it, thats a pretty huge sacrifice. It's one thing for a person who has nothing, to sacrifice themselves. It's quite another for a person who has everything and throw it all for a cause he believes in.

... Okay.

Are you seriously trying to tell me he's sacrificing this...




For this.

[TMA LIVE]

:blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::blink:

I don't understand this thread anymore.

[Nightwriter]

mosor wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

There are 150 people in Cerberus who agree to TIM's leadership.

But as self-proclaimed representative of humanity's interests, TIM makes decisions on behalf of billions, none of whom recognize his leadership.

Whats the point? If TIM wants to be a protector of humanity, that's his choice. He doesn't need the conscent of the multitude for that.  Cerberus actions may affect billions of people, however so do Shepard's, so do the actions of plenty of other unelected people and corporations. That's just life.

Understand that it's not such a big thing if the I-man - or any man - makes himself self-proclaimed champion of humanity.

It's when he starts to do very, very, very bad things with very, very, very questionable results on behalf of humanity that it begins to become an issue of whether he has the right.

Does that make sense?

[Nightwriter]

Short answer: No.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 30 juillet 2010 - 11:26 .

[angj57]

mosor wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

There are 150 people in Cerberus who agree to TIM's leadership.

But as self-proclaimed representative of humanity's interests, TIM makes decisions on behalf of billions, none of whom recognize his leadership.

Whats the point? If TIM wants to be a protector of humanity, that's his choice. He doesn't need the conscent of the multitude for that.  Cerberus actions may affect billions of people, however so do Shepard's, so do the actions of plenty of other unelected people and corporations. That's just life.

That would be true if Cerberus's actions are legal. The vast majority of them are not. The use of violence, for instance, is monopolized by the state in every civilized society, because when violence needs to be carried out it should be done so with the consent of society. When Shepard makes a decision that affects billions of people, he is doing so as an agent of the larger society, appointed by a government which has been elected by the people. Cerberus cannot make that claim.

Why is this important? Partly it is a question of incentives. The government, and, by extention, Shepard, can be recalled by the people if they fail to serve their interests. Cerberus's power comes from its investors and funders. If Cerberus had to make a decision between protecting the interests of humanity or the interests of the billionaires who fund them, the clear incentive would be to protect the billionares at the expense of the rest of humanity. Furthermore, if the Illusive Man were ever to die, whoever inherrited his organization could easily turn it into a private money-making empire without anyone being able to hold him accountable or recall him.

It is clear that an organization that wields violent power and makes political decisions needs to be accountable to more people than simply their investors. And for those who think I'm being inconsistent-- I do think that Cerberus gets the job done and is a necessary evil against the Reapers, but I don't like their model of an organization and I would oppose them once the Reapers are defeated.

Modifié par angj57, 30 juillet 2010 - 11:32 .

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Fine. If that's how you feel then fair enough.

However I doubt the population at large is intelligent enough to know what's in their own best interests. Their elected leaders sure as hell aren't.

I agree with this though.

Shandepared wrote...

Cerberus is though.

Just not this.

Shandepared wrote...

I never see the Illusive Man change his outfit so he is certainly sacrificing.

And I can't argue with this.

Though there are a long list of characters in the game that never change their outfits.

I figured it was a future thing.

[TMA LIVE]

Nightwriter wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Fine. If that's how you feel then fair enough.

However I doubt the population at large is intelligent enough to know what's in their own best interests. Their elected leaders sure as hell aren't.

I agree with this though.

Shandepared wrote...

Cerberus is though.

Just not this.

Shandepared wrote...

I never see the Illusive Man change his outfit so he is certainly sacrificing.

And I can't argue with this.

Though there are a long list of characters in the game that never change their outfits.

I figured it was a future thing.

I wonder how much Miranda needs a cleaning...

[thegreateski]

TIM: "What is these . . . things . . . you have in your bathroom Shepard?"

Shep: "They're called a dryer and washer. You should get one of each."

[Nightwriter]

At least Miranda is able to switch in and out of an alternate outfit. TIM has no alternate outfit.

[thegreateski]

Those are not TIM's clothes.



They are his skin.

[TMA LIVE]

They don't even have toilet paper.

[Nightwriter]

I'd like to see what he looks like without his skin.

[thegreateski]

Nightwriter wrote...

I'd like to see what he looks like without his skin.