397 réponses à ce sujet

[WOLF_00]

Interesting subject; But do the Illusive man knows about the crimes that his team. like Teltin Facility on Pragia; where kidnapped children torched and abused them. Clearly the first record was mentioning that people are not obeying Illusive man command and they pointed if he figure out what was happened they will be in trouble.



The Illusive Man is NOT EVIL character, but people who recruited by his organization, and the reporting mechanism in Cerberus allow people to hide their mistakes from the Illusive Man. The Illusive man dealt with Shepard carefully that he put Miranda to spy on Shepard and ensure that he is in line with Cerberus command. But for remote area; where Illusive man agent could not reach he will relay most in the report of people on the field and he won't be suspicious to them since they are working for him and give the results he needs.



The Illusive man is not be the evil character, but people who are work for him spoiled Cerberus reputation and made it looks very bad. An evidence is Shepard have the authority to take any decision in ME2 without questioning from Illusive man. Renegade Shepard killed/allowed killing a lot of people and they where guilty in his perspective, on the other hand the Illusive man never question him about his action as he believes in his motive.



The weakest points in Illusive man personality are; he is not investigating his operative actions & leaves his operative isolated without close monitoring to ensure they do not cross the line.

And don't forget the beginning of ME2, where Miranda and Illusive man had chat about Shepard that he's the one who done the best for humanity; and that confirm Illusive man personality as not evil as many may think



I am sorry RioHutaro, but Illusive man is not bad as you think, but may his operatives are out of questioning and that weaken Cerberus & spoil image of illusive man. I am sure that if Shepard continue working with him; you may change your mind and say; he got a reason for his action!

[lovgreno]

The US didn't win the cold war with it's distrusts, weapon stockpiles, spying and failed wars. Those things actualy helped the enemy more in many cases. What won it was honest, friendly political and economical relations with their allies, based on mutual win, not only selfish reasons.
At the moment the System alliance seems to be risking a situation like the Soviet block in the cold war or the batarian isolationalists. All the bully nonsense and threats of the soviets only made their fall come faster.
You may think you look like you are a cool, cynical realist when you are a bully but in reality you are just losing true allies. Some may think Cerberus is enough to win the war against the reapers. That may be true but just in case I want the alien fleet pointing their guns at the reapers instead of against humanity.
That takes some humility and compromising of course wich I know this is hard for a person with low self esteem to do but I think Shepard should be man/woman enough to sacrifice his/her pride for the good of the humanity.
In this point of wiev Cerberus is becoming a liability. If they don't do something about that all the good things they have done may be for nothing.

Modifié par lovgreno, 04 août 2010 - 08:20 .

[ThisIsMadness91]

Shandepared wrote...

I don't see why anybody is shocked by what Cerberus did to Grayson. He betrayed them, after all. Is it surprising that turning your back on a ruthless and criminal organization with a radical agenda can be bad for your health?

Would it have been better if Cerberus had done this to someone else? Who should they have done it to? As horrible as the experiment was the Illusive Man was right about its importance.

I'm not shocked, but I am disgusted. It shows that the Illusive Man is willing to indulge his twisted desires. Of all the people he could have chosen for the experiment, he went with this one turncoat. What, were there no loyal operatives willing to sacrifice themselves for this experiment?

[Dean_the_Young]

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

I don't see why anybody is shocked by what Cerberus did to Grayson. He betrayed them, after all. Is it surprising that turning your back on a ruthless and criminal organization with a radical agenda can be bad for your health?

Would it have been better if Cerberus had done this to someone else? Who should they have done it to? As horrible as the experiment was the Illusive Man was right about its importance.

I'm not shocked, but I am disgusted. It shows that the Illusive Man is willing to indulge his twisted desires. Of all the people he could have chosen for the experiment, he went with this one turncoat. What, were there no loyal operatives willing to sacrifice themselves for this experiment?

That only reads more stupid and asnine the more I reread it.

Yes, in a potentially life-destroying experiment, let's reward the loyal, productive person rather than punish the person who betrayed us and did great harm to our efforts. Because that's moral... except to the viewpoint of anyone who's actually worked in that organization.

[Dean_the_Young]

lovgreno wrote...

The US didn't win the cold war with it's distrusts, weapon stockpiles, spying and failed wars. Those things actualy helped the enemy more in many cases. What won it was honest, friendly political and economical relations with their allies, based on mutual win, not only selfish reasons.

Actually, the first was likely more important than the second: trying to match (by all those means) the military-industrial complex is what bankrupted the Soviet Union, not some zero-sum trade off of American commercial growth.

At the moment the System alliance seems to be risking a situation like the Soviet block in the cold war or the batarian isolationalists. All the bully nonsense and threats of the soviets only made their fall come faster.
You may think you look like you are a cool, cynical realist when you are a bully but in reality you are just losing true allies. Some may think Cerberus is enough to win the war against the reapers. That may be true but just in case I want the alien fleet pointing their guns at the reapers instead of against humanity.

In what interpretation of the Mass Effect canon have the Batarians ever been the 'true' allies?

You know, Batarians? State-sponsors of a undeclared pirate war? Supporters of the slavers who attack human colonies?

That takes some humility and compromising of course wich I know this is hard for a person with low self esteem to do but I think Shepard should be man/woman enough to sacrifice his/her pride for the good of the humanity.
In this point of wiev Cerberus is becoming a liability. If they don't do something about that all the good things they have done may be for nothing.

The entire point of the ending choice was that the base, and Cerberus, were far more valuable and could not be written off as a simple liability.

Why 'humility'  should entail getting a lot more people murdered through your inaction is, as always, something no one here has suitably justified.

[Boombox]

When the reaper threat is over I hope we get to hunt TIM down like the dog he is.

[Dean_the_Young]

Boombox wrote...

When the reaper threat is over I hope we get to hunt TIM down like the dog he is.

Another perfect demonstration of why TIM's hunting of Grayson is less than remarkable human behavior and simply a case of different sides.

[inversevideo]

Boombox wrote...

When the reaper threat is over I hope we get to hunt TIM down like the dog he is.

Dear me no!  Shep has resources for that. Namely the most dangerous assasin in the galaxy. An assasin with a terminal illness, nothing to lose, a nearly flawless track record, who is looking to balance his sins, by making the galaxy a better place. 

Really, I can't think of a more fitting epilogue to Mass Effect, a post ending to ME3.

Scene transition - TIM in his chair, lights cigarette, staring contemplatively at a malevolent red sun. He turns and is confronted by the the visage of Thane, a flash of light, the image of Thane saying prayers over TIM ... fade to black ...

Modifié par inversevideo, 04 août 2010 - 04:31 .

[ThisIsMadness91]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

I don't see why anybody is shocked by what Cerberus did to Grayson. He betrayed them, after all. Is it surprising that turning your back on a ruthless and criminal organization with a radical agenda can be bad for your health?

Would it have been better if Cerberus had done this to someone else? Who should they have done it to? As horrible as the experiment was the Illusive Man was right about its importance.

I'm not shocked, but I am disgusted. It shows that the Illusive Man is willing to indulge his twisted desires. Of all the people he could have chosen for the experiment, he went with this one turncoat. What, were there no loyal operatives willing to sacrifice themselves for this experiment?

That only reads more stupid and asnine the more I reread it.

Yes, in a potentially life-destroying experiment, let's reward the loyal, productive person rather than punish the person who betrayed us and did great harm to our efforts. Because that's moral... except to the viewpoint of anyone who's actually worked in that organization.

I never said it wasn't more productive, I just said it was immoral. Good to see my post annoyed you, though.

[Myrmedus]

If it's in the scope of ME3's story I plan to use Cerberus as they would use me. I require their resources right now while we fight the Reapers and depending on what happens in ME3 I may end TIM or continue to do that. Either way, once the Reapers are put to the side I'll like despatch TIM or have Thane do it. It's not what they're prepared to do in war that disgusts me but rather what TIM plans to do once said war is over. Fighting the Reapers is good but trying to use that as a proxy war to dominate other alien races is not.

I'm positive that TIM knew about the Collector Base long before he even
had Shepard revived and simply wanted to use him to claim it. In the
conversation you have with him about destroying the base or not he says
"You've acquired the base" - the plan was never to acquire it but destroy it so his wording gives him away immediately here. Personally, I would've planted the bomb in addition to the radiation pulse and held on to the detonator. If TIM stepped out of line, I'd blow it to hell.

Cerberus -is- evil in my eyes but as an organization it actually embodies "the end justifies the means" in more than one way: it's a necessary evil right now.

And yes, on another topic brought up in this thread: I also wondered if Cerberus knew about the Reapers before we did.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 04 août 2010 - 05:05 .

[Inverness Moon]

Myrmedus wrote...

And yes, on another topic brought up in this thread: I also wondered if Cerberus knew about the Reapers before we did.

I doubt it. TIM's thoughts at the beginning of Ascension reflected how he wanted to find out the truth about Sovereign.

[sagefic]

thank you for the summary.



though you don't mention the less crime-like, but still spooky things TIM does to mess with shep's ship, namely:



* deliberately giving shep genetically unusual crew members, which does sound suspiciously like "collecting" rare DNA specimins himself.



* Horizon, which is completely a set up, no matter how you look at it



* leaking info to the Alliance/Council about shep behind around which, given the time line, could only have been done with the intention to drive a wedge between shep and former allies and



* happily sacrificing an entire crew for the possibility of getting reaper tech. to me, that last one was his intention all the while.

[snfonseka]

TIM is an antihero... the best antihero I know. Anyway Cerberus should be there to get the job done where Alliance cannot involve.

[Dean_the_Young]

sagequeen wrote...

thank you for the summary.

though you don't mention the less crime-like, but still spooky things TIM does to mess with shep's ship, namely:

* deliberately giving shep genetically unusual crew members, which does sound suspiciously like "collecting" rare DNA specimins himself.

How is helping Shepard get an elite team suspicious? Getting together a subpar team, insisting on riskier/inferior choices would be suspicious.

* Horizon, which is completely a set up, no matter how you look at it

And you can say that no matter how you look at it, doctors drug unconcious victims against their will. It removes all context that (a) the drug is beneficial and ( it is better than not applying emergency treatment.

I have yet to hear a sound argument for why TIM should not have set the Horizon trap for the Collectors, as opposed to letting them strike somewhere else without any forwarning.

* leaking info to the Alliance/Council about shep behind around which, given the time line, could only have been done with the intention to drive a wedge between shep and former allies and

Or, you know, Horizon.

Which you just mentioned.

* happily sacrificing an entire crew for the possibility of getting reaper tech. to me, that last one was his intention all the while.

Reaper tech required to save Terminus colonies from the Collectors, a threat Cerberus personel know the risks required to frace down.

Or did you forget that you needed the IFF?

[Dean_the_Young]

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

I never said it wasn't more productive, I just said it was immoral. Good to see my post annoyed you, though.

As glad as I am that my opinion matters so much for your sense of pleasure, you're still being stupid. In what organization and ethics system do you believe in in which the morally superior path is to punish the loyal and forgive the offender, as opposed to punish the offender and not the loyal?

Your claim of morality is opposed to every moral system we want organizations to abide by.

[srzyski89]

Shandepared wrote...

srzyski89 wrote...

In ME's case, it is the mindset of "l'll be ready when those allies turn to enemies". It ends up turning into a self-fulfilling prophecy as tensions build as you already view your allies as potential foes.

No it doesn't.

Well, it might in Mass Effect but then Mass Effect is fiction. In real-life it's actually quite normal and rational not to blindly trust foreign nations.

Are we not discussing Mass effect? You can have whatever beliefs you want about global politics. I won't argue or discuss them because that's not what this forum is for. Trust is trust, it requires a bit of faith. In the real world you do have a point but in Mass Effect we are discussing things much larger than individual nations. To equate a nation to an entire species would seem to be simplifying things. On a galactic scale, what do you have to fight over? Resources are basically unlimited, and space/land definitely isn't lacking. I'd say in Mass Effect, cooperation is far less hindered than it is in the real world.

[ThisIsMadness91]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

I never said it wasn't more productive, I just said it was immoral. Good to see my post annoyed you, though.

As glad as I am that my opinion matters so much for your sense of pleasure, you're still being stupid. In what organization and ethics system do you believe in in which the morally superior path is to punish the loyal and forgive the offender, as opposed to punish the offender and not the loyal?

Your claim of morality is opposed to every moral system we want organizations to abide by.

*sigh* I never said the Illusive Man should force one of his loyal followers to undergo the experiment, just that none of them were selfless enough to volunteer and that he was vengeful enough to pursue Grayson and force him to do so. Call me stupid if you want, but don't expect me to just take it.

Modifié par ThisIsMadness91, 04 août 2010 - 07:53 .

[Dean_the_Young]

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

*sigh* I never said the Illusive Man should force one of his loyal followers to undergo the experiment, just that none of them were selfless enough to volunteer and that he was vengeful enough to pursue Grayson and force him to do so. Call me stupid if you want, but don't expect me to just take it.

While you could certainly argue neither is moral, your stated priorities are pretty ****ed up to think that it's morally superior to hurt someone
faithful to you than someone who has betrayed your trust and deliberatly harmed
you.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 04 août 2010 - 09:29 .

[snfonseka]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

And yes, on another topic brought up in this thread: I also wondered if Cerberus knew about the Reapers before we did.

I doubt it. TIM's thoughts at the beginning of Ascension reflected how he wanted to find out the truth about Sovereign.

I think Alliance knew about Reapers before Shepard did (Kasumi's Gray Box images).

[ThisIsMadness91]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

*sigh* I never said the Illusive Man should force one of his loyal followers to undergo the experiment, just that none of them were selfless enough to volunteer and that he was vengeful enough to pursue Grayson and force him to do so. Call me stupid if you want, but don't expect me to just take it.

While you could certainly argue neither is moral, your stated priorities are pretty ****ed up to think that it's morally superior to hurt someone
faithful to you than someone who has betrayed your trust and deliberatly harmed
you.

I guess I'm just bad at trying to properly put my views across online. I'm not trying to say the Illusive Man should hurt one of his loyal followers, just that if they were as well-meaning and selfless as they claim to be, someone would have volunteered, and saved the Illusive Man (for some reason, I just can't bring myself to refer to him as TIM) from tracking down this one traitor. No matter how I look at it, it just seemed as if the Illusive Man wanted to make Grayson suffer for having the nerve to betray him, and that's what bothers me.

If I still sound stupid after saying this then, again, either I'm bad at getting my point across or you simply disagree with me.

[Sajuro]

Shandepared wrote...

srzyski89 wrote...



Trust is trust, it requires a bit of faith.

A country does not have faith. It is not a person.

The people who lead the country should have that faith. I'm not saying you have blind trust but we can't make deals while holding a dagger to eachother's throats.

[Dean_the_Young]

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

*sigh* I never said the Illusive Man should force one of his loyal followers to undergo the experiment, just that none of them were selfless enough to volunteer and that he was vengeful enough to pursue Grayson and force him to do so. Call me stupid if you want, but don't expect me to just take it.

While you could certainly argue neither is moral, your stated priorities are pretty ****ed up to think that it's morally superior to hurt someone
faithful to you than someone who has betrayed your trust and deliberatly harmed
you.

I guess I'm just bad at trying to properly put my views across online. I'm not trying to say the Illusive Man should hurt one of his loyal followers, just that if they were as well-meaning and selfless as they claim to be, someone would have volunteered, and saved the Illusive Man (for some reason, I just can't bring myself to refer to him as TIM) from tracking down this one traitor. No matter how I look at it, it just seemed as if the Illusive Man wanted to make Grayson suffer for having the nerve to betray him, and that's what bothers me.

If I still sound stupid after saying this then, again, either I'm bad at getting my point across or you simply disagree with me.

Must be communication. If there's something I would do to punish my enemies, I would be very hard pressed justifying it as moral to apply it to my loyal subordinates.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sajuro wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

srzyski89 wrote...

Trust is trust, it requires a bit of faith.

A country does not have faith. It is not a person.

The people who lead the country should have that faith. I'm not saying you have blind trust but we can't make deals while holding a dagger to eachother's throats.

Faith between people should always be grounded in reality, reason, and reassurances in order to remain credible. Suspicion is a survival tactic, as is caution, and while the former can be burdonsome to relations history shows time and time again the later can prove quite valuable.

So sure. Trust your neighbors. But at night, keep the garrage door down and lock the doors.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 août 2010 - 04:12 .