397 réponses à ce sujet

[Thatguy38]

RiouHotaru wrote...

2papercuts wrote...

I was hoping that this was going to show why Cerberus are incompetent at everything.

It does if you think about it.  A good number of these projects blew up in their faces, and TIM obviously sucks at hiring anyone with even a barest shred of moral decency.

 
Especially since anyone with any moral decency tends to turn on him, I.E. Sheperd. Unless you choose the renegade ending... which I did once, just so I would have 2 save games for ME 3.

[Sajuro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

srzyski89 wrote...

Trust is trust, it requires a bit of faith.

A country does not have faith. It is not a person.

The people who lead the country should have that faith. I'm not saying you have blind trust but we can't make deals while holding a dagger to eachother's throats.

Faith between people should always be grounded in reality, reason, and reassurances in order to remain credible. Suspicion is a survival tactic, as is caution, and while the former can be burdonsome to relations history shows time and time again the later can prove quite valuable.

So sure. Trust your neighbors. But at night, keep the garrage door down and lock the doors.

not disagreeing, but you should not have have a plan to kill every last one of your neighbors should they not return your leaf blower or something.

[Ulicus]

If Cerberus aren't revealed as a branch of the Alliance I'll eat my hat. "Terrorists"? "Completely rogue"? Sure. That's just to give Alliance Command plausible deniability.

Modifié par Ulicus, 05 août 2010 - 04:24 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Sajuro wrote...

not disagreeing, but you should not have have a plan to kill every last one of your neighbors should they not return your leaf blower or something.

Hyperbole does not suit you, or advance your point. Countries face crisis far more serious and severe than a mere leaf blower, and the scale of nations means that far more caution and preparation is warranted in light of great consequences from chance happenings.

[Thatguy38]

Ulicus wrote...

If Cerberus aren't revealed as a branch of the Alliance I'll eat my hat. "Terrorists"? "Completely rogue"? Sure. That's just to give Alliance Command plausible deniability.

Or maybe it's even more sinister than that. Remember The Committee from the X-Files? Interesting how everytime you see TIM he has a cigarette... remind you of someone? Hmmm... Coincidence? I think not.

[Sajuro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

not disagreeing, but you should not have have a plan to kill every last one of your neighbors should they not return your leaf blower or something.

Hyperbole does not suit you, or advance your point. Countries face crisis far more serious and severe than a mere leaf blower, and the scale of nations means that far more caution and preparation is warranted in light of great consequences from chance happenings.

I know >.> but I don't really think you should be neighbors with people who will come in and plunder your house in the first place.

[Freakaz0idx]

When I look at a list like that, the only thing I think of is that there has to be a plot twist or something that gives Cerberus leverage over choosing a complete paragon path. Just from a videogame perspective, Cerberus can't suck this bad without there being a major advantage for sticking with them.

[Inverness Moon]

snfonseka wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

And yes, on another topic brought up in this thread: I also wondered if Cerberus knew about the Reapers before we did.

I doubt it. TIM's thoughts at the beginning of Ascension reflected how he wanted to find out the truth about Sovereign.

I think Alliance knew about Reapers before Shepard did (Kasumi's Gray Box images).

There are two years between ME1 and 2. It seems quite ridiculous to claim that those gray box images were from before Shepard destroyed Sovereign.

[didymos1120]

Inverness Moon wrote...
There are two years between ME1 and 2. It seems quite ridiculous to claim that those gray box images were from before
Shepard destroyed Sovereign.

Not if you know how Sovereign was found.   It would need explaining, but it's plausible.

[snfonseka]

Inverness Moon wrote...

snfonseka wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

And yes, on another topic brought up in this thread: I also wondered if Cerberus knew about the Reapers before we did.

I doubt it. TIM's thoughts at the beginning of Ascension reflected how he wanted to find out the truth about Sovereign.

I think Alliance knew about Reapers before Shepard did (Kasumi's Gray Box images).

There are two years between ME1 and 2. It seems quite ridiculous to claim that those gray box images were from before Shepard destroyed Sovereign.

Then what the so secret thing regarding Reapers that only Alliance know? It is clear that the Alliance know something that other races don't know regarding Reapers. So my theory was above, before dismissing that clairm at least give your theory regarding this "Reaper Secret" that only Alliance know. Please don't ack like the turian councilor <_<........

[dreman9999]

Ulicus wrote...

If Cerberus aren't revealed as a branch of the Alliance I'll eat my hat. "Terrorists"? "Completely rogue"? Sure. That's just to give Alliance Command plausible deniability.

Would you like Musterd on you hat because the book is very clear that Cerberus is no long a branch of the Alliance.

[RiouHotaru]

mosor wrote...

krasnoarmeets wrote...

Cerberus incompetent to the point of comedy = why everything blows up in their faces.

How can completely incompetent retards strive for superiority?

They're not completely incompetent retards. They wouldn't be so well funded if they were. Experiments fail more often than not, especially when dealing with things unfamilar to us. We don't get these experimental disasters on earth as often because plenty of the things we study on a practical level, we're familar with. We can hypothesize expected complications pretty easily and thus prepare for them better.

In the ME universe, Cerberus is experimenting on things that are thus far totally alien to our experience. Anticipating even a few complications (never mind most) is pretty much impossible. However, despite the dangers, these experiments must be done or these things will always be alien to us. We will never learn and grow and be familiar with the galaxy unless we study the unfamiliar stuff. Not to mention that there is a time limit hanging over our heads with the reapers coming. The more familiar we are with the threat the better our chances.

Cerberus is doing us a favor. They're taking the majority of the risks when studying alien and radical technologies. Their people are usually the first to suffer. They do it because it has to be done by someone. It's not going to be a risk adverse elected government.

They're not doing anyone any favors.  There are far safer methods by which these technologies and advancements could be made WITHOUT risking people's lives in the process.  Also, things like experimenting on Rachni and Thorian Creepers would've just been avoided all together.  Sure, it'll take longer to see any significant developments, but it's far more ethical, safer, and you get the ability to freely pass away the Idiot Ball.

[Nightwriter]

I suppose the kind thing to say would be that Cerberus's acceptable margins of loss are much greater than anyone else's. They do not care if they make bad mistakes, and they are willing to make more of them.

[ExtremeOne]

yeah i am pro Cerberus for one reason i am so sick of games always having a happy ending

[Ulicus]

dreman9999 wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

If Cerberus aren't revealed as a branch of the Alliance I'll eat my hat. "Terrorists"? "Completely rogue"? Sure. That's just to give Alliance Command plausible deniability.

Would you like Musterd on you hat because the book is very clear that Cerberus is no long a branch of the Alliance.

I've yet to read Retribution, so I may well end up having some mustard with my hat, thankyou.

That said, I'll read it for myself before I agree to anything being "very clear".

[Dean_the_Young]

Sajuro wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

not disagreeing, but you should not have have a plan to kill every last one of your neighbors should they not return your leaf blower or something.

Hyperbole does not suit you, or advance your point. Countries face crisis far more serious and severe than a mere leaf blower, and the scale of nations means that far more caution and preparation is warranted in light of great consequences from chance happenings.

I know >.> but I don't really think you should be neighbors with people who will come in and plunder your house in the first place.

Nations don't have the choice to move away. They can not 'escape' a conflict, so they can only defend and anticipate in order to protect their citizens.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 août 2010 - 12:21 .

[ThisIsMadness91]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Must be communication. If there's something I would do to punish my enemies, I would be very hard pressed justifying it as moral to apply it to my loyal subordinates.

True enough, but I don't really consider Grayson to be an enemy of Cerberus. He's not out there trying to impede their progress. He just wants them to leave him and his loved ones alone.

[Zulu_DFA]

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Must be communication. If there's something I would do to punish my enemies, I would be very hard pressed justifying it as moral to apply it to my loyal subordinates.

True enough, but I don't really consider Grayson to be an enemy of Cerberus. He's not out there trying to impede their progress. He just wants them to leave him and his loved ones alone.

Grayson betrayed Cerberus, and wanted to get away with it. But he knew he wouldn't. Because that's not what a clandestine organizations tolerate... So he planned in advance, that when he went down it wouldn't be without a price tag for Cerberus. He was one persistent SOB... I can't help being sypathetic with his character... But  he put his outstanding qualitites to bad use. And it all started with him letting his passions get in the way of his duty. classic tragedy. And like in classic tragedy, in the end he got what he deserved.

[atheelogos]

chapa3 wrote...

You forgot the Singapore Station element zero disastor. Cerberus orchestrated that.

Under orders from the Alliance. Lets not forget that.

[Inverness Moon]

snfonseka wrote...

Then what the so secret thing regarding Reapers that only Alliance know? It is clear that the Alliance know something that other races don't know regarding Reapers. So my theory was above.

I think it is far more likely that the secret is about the Alliance doing something with the remains of sovereign rather than them knowing something that the other races didn't. Of course, we don't know, but it is highly doubtful that whatever it is happened before the destruction of Sovereign.

[Graz73]

not sure about this

Modifié par Graz73, 05 août 2010 - 07:48 .

[DPSSOC]

RiouHotaru wrote...
They're not doing anyone any favors.  There are far safer methods by which these technologies and advancements could be made WITHOUT risking people's lives in the process.

 

All research of this sort entails a fair amount of risk.  We need to break away from the idea that the Cerberus experiments are akin to modern tests of experimental weapons and medicines.  What Cerberus is doing isn't refining the wheel or even splitting the atom, the closest thing in our history is the discovery of fire.  We're dealing with the completely alien with 0 understanding not refining something we already understand, and you can take any measurements you want, probe it with any tool you wish, and it will mean nothing until you understand what it does.  There is only one way to answer that question and that's experience.

RiouHotaru wrote...
Also, things like experimenting on Rachni and Thorian Creepers would've just been avoided all together.  Sure, it'll take longer to see any significant developments, but it's far more ethical, safer, and you get the ability to freely pass away the Idiot Ball.

All of the experiments would have been avoided that's the problem.  The risk involved in these projects is high, and no government, corporation, person, etc. wants to accept that kind of risk until they absolutely have to.  For example, were it not for WWII we would never have developed nuclear power.  The reason being we understood, from the get go, the destructive power of what we were doing which is why it was used first as a weapon.  Take away the threat of anihillation, the need for a weapon of that kind of power, and nobody would be willing to take the risk that it could accidentally go BOOM.  Necessity is the mother of invention because it overpowers fear more than anything else.

And I'm glad you brought up time because that is something we don't have.  Pre-Reapers we're playing galactic catch-up against aliens with a long history of subjugation and genocide.  We can't afford to be slow in our development because it just gives them more time to make it moot.  For example say you and I have arranged a fight.  If you find out weeks before I'm brining brass knuckles you're going to come prepared for brass knuckles, but if I wait and act quickly I catch you unprepared and gain a temporary advantage I can press for more gain.  You'll adjust eventually but the longer I can hold and press the advantage the better.

Now Post-Reapers we're racing against a very insistent clock and definitely don't have time.  Cerberus is one of the few organization with the will, and ability, to throw caution to the wind and pull out all the stops to come up with advancements not in months or years but now.  The Alliance and even the Council ultimately have to answer to the people they govern which means when people get upset about this kind of research they have to stop to keep the masses complacent.  Cerberus, because it answers to people who's only interest is results, can act with impunity and push the boundaries harder and faster than anyone else.

Is it nice, no.  Is it ethical, certainly not.  Is it clean, hardly.  But none of that matters because it is ultimately necessary that humanity advance quickly to avoid extinction or serfdom.

[mosor]

RiouHotaru wrote...

They're not doing anyone any favors.  There are far safer methods by which these technologies and advancements could be made WITHOUT risking people's lives in the process.  Also, things like experimenting on Rachni and Thorian Creepers would've just been avoided all together.  Sure, it'll take longer to see any significant developments, but it's far more ethical, safer, and you get the ability to freely pass away the Idiot Ball.

As far as I can tell, the majority of  these experiments have taken place in remote, isolated facilities. The people's who risked the most were Cerberus staff. It's not like they're doing this stuff in NYC.

Why should experiments on Rachni and Thorian Creepers be avoided? We experiment on every animal under the sun, why should they be different? There was no way of knowing what the Rachni are about, if they're even sentient, unless you study them. Human nature is to be curious, and if there is a puzzle or an unknown, you can bet a human will research it.

There are no safe methods and procedures to be had when studying something totally alien to our experience. None. It's impossible to predict complications until someone grows some balls and becomes the first to dive in and study it.

For instance, even things familiar to us now, people have suffered in the past researching. Great minds of the 20th century like Marie Curie and Enrico Fermi died from cancer as a result of radiation posioning. Did they know prolonged exposure to radiation will make them sick? No!  Were they morons because they should have known and taken extra precautions? Nonsense! Their sacrifice and the actual detonanation of the a-bomb allowed us to realize the danger, so future scientists could study atomic enegery and not get sick.

Or what about the nurses and doctors who treated influenza patients in 1918? They wore masks only covering their mouths.. They didn't know  influenza infected people through the nose. Many doctors and nurses died, but not before further spreading the virus to their families. We they incompetant and stupid? Of course not. They were dealing with the unfamiliar. Their sacrifice was one of the reasons biohazard suits were developed. There are tons of other examples of saftey procedures we take for granted today that were a result of trial and error, death and suffering of the people who did the researching.

How can we expect that studying things totally alien to us will not also result in a lot of sacrifices when our history is soiled in the blood of people who paid with their lives being the first to investigate the unknown. Whether a friut is poisionous to us or not in the caveman era, to studying the ebola virus. Cerberus scientists are brave. They know full well the risks involved. They may all have selfish individual reasons for studying things alien to us, but the big reason is to advance human knowledge.

As for Cerberus being a terrorist organization because they conduct these experiemts. Here is a summary of experimental horror shows done in the USA. Plenty of them sponsored by various branches of our elected government and military.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_experimentation_in_the_United_States

Plenty of these make cerberus experiments look ethical in comparison. At least Cerberus' reasons is the preservation of humanity from extinction.

Modifié par mosor, 06 août 2010 - 03:58 .