397 réponses à ce sujet

[lovgreno]

Good post Arhijarn.

I think Cerberus problem is that they are too isolated and too idealistic. The isolation means that they, especialy TIM despite the good intentions I belive he have, don't have anyone to tell them when they are wrong so they continue with their failing projects and don't even know it. Idealism can be a good thing as a inspiration to work despite hard circumstances. It can however also make you blind for your own failiures and opposing opinions. Changing your mind is not a weakness as some people (even in these forums I suspect) think. On the contrary it is necesary for survival and development. The idealist can not see this though as he is certain of him being right, isolating themselves only makes it worse. To me TIM and Cerberus are typical idealists, it has served them well to a point but now it is destroying them. Perhaps the role of the idealists turned fanatics are what the writers want to give them? It could work I think. But we shall wait for ME3 to know for sure of course.

[Arijharn]

 I know my reply will sound rather nebulous, but how do you know for sure that the Mass Effect universe hasn't seen the benefits from Cerberus' research and/or wont?

Consider Lazarus, would it not behoove Cerberus' backers (influential people/organisations obviously) to get something out of Cerberus' efforts? Perhaps that's what drove Wilson over the edge in the first place; the knowledge that he just did something absolutely remarkable and never ever getting the (deserved) credit for it - that it'll all be passed off to some 'lesser' researcher and company that would make absolute trillions out of it while he'll get what? The basic pay/medical package from Cerberus? You know, I can start to see his fury when it's put like that.

What advances could be gained from this? Who knows... perhaps the next evolution of Medi-gel?

[Keldon Northwind]

Legion 2.5 wrote...

Here is one, The Illusive man has become power-hungry.

Perhaps, but he's just epicly inept at organizing anything that doesn't blow up in his face.

[alienatedflea]

RiouHotaru wrote...

@Mosor: It's not an issue of spinning in a negative light. Clearly each of these incidents is an example where Cerberus used human (and alien) lives to further their own goals. Now, if these people were say, volunteers, I wouldn't have an issue. It'd still be morally uncomfortable because it involves testing on sentient and sapient beings, but at least they'd have given consent. The problem is Cerberus kidnaps people or pays slavers for these folks and then just tortures them with not even the slightest consideration to their well-being or whatnot.

Also, at what point do you say the ends no longer justify the means? 1,000 lives? 10,000 lives? 1,000,000? I mean, you have to draw the line somewhere, right?

...

Right?

wait wait wait...are you an ally fan? why do you think alliance is any better than Cerberus?! did you read about the cosairs from jacob?...they are trained to do black ops and outside of regulations...so i dont think just with that arm of the Alliance that they are just as morally questionable as Cerberus...and the salarians created the genophage...a species ravanging disease for the krogan yet we dont question if they are moral or not...and the Asari Justicars? Justice is a very subjective term...yet we dont think Samara is terrible...i mean is it better to be an origanization like Cerberus or be a one man (in this case...woman) army like jack and she has done some effed up stuff too and Tali...she is supporting the genocide of a species the geth....yet we dont do anything to stop that...haha wow...zazead he was the founding fathers of the Blue Suns...we dont throw him under a bus now do we? and thane..."im just a weapon" mentality when he killed thousands of people...he is one sick f*** haha

i dont think we should have a smear campaign over Cerberus...EVERYONE has a checkered past at best...

[mosor]

Nightwriter wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

...Dude, nightwriter WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?  And yes, I figured at this point we just need a running tally of each of Cerberus' offenses.  And yeah, Tracer was a blast to discourse with.

Also, thank you, that was what I was going for with the "for the lulz" conclusion.  There just doesn't seem to be any logical reason I could think of for luring a group of marines out to a desolate remote system and walk them right into a Thresher Maw nest.

...unless the marines wanted to kill it on foot for the credit reward *scarcasm*

? Well I have been in the "why would you destroy the Collector base" thread, arguing with Shand.

Who has just said that if the Illusive man wants to make Reapers he would be willing to help him abduct his victims and lead a team to kidnap elcor colonists.

The people in the thread have responded by saying this is inefficient use of resources.

Instead of, you know, abominable.

I stated the inefficient or impactical argument for Cerberus building reapers simply because convincing rabid anti-cerberus haters that cerberus is anything but abominable is impossible. So you have to point out the lack of logic or impracticality of such an operation to counter it.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Ok, first of all, I believe Cerberus is far from perfect, but I do believe the ends justify the means. I am going to try to respond to each even as honestly as possible.

[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

Akuze
This is arguably the most prominent crime on their list, seeing as it's possible they're directly responsible for luring the marines and the thresher maws together.  Toombs claims this possibility is the truth, but at best, Cerberus knew where the marines were going and did nothing to stop them, wanting to observe and measure the result and outcome.  The fact they then kidnap Toombs and experiment on him, probably for years, is just insult upon injury.
[/quote]

Admittedly, this looks pretty bad. Whether it was a rogue group, something done for reasons unknown, or just a moral f*** up, this probably shouldn't have happened. I do not think, however, the complete reason behind this incident is known so I will not 100% condemn them for this even though it seems pretty bad in my mind.

[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

Admiral Kohoku
Another prominent crime in Cerberus' belt, they killed Kahoku for tracking them down, to keep him from exposing them (little good it did them, Shepard finds them and finishes the job).  However, the apologists like to claim that Kahoku was either a traitor or a "security leak" (under this silly theory that Cerberus is still a part of the Alliance).  But nowhere do the apologists explain the reasoning behind Cerberus purposefully luring his men out just so a thresher maw would ruin them.  There's nothing of importance in that system, and unless Cerberus was trying to replicate Akuze, this action seems almost purely for the lulz.
[/quote]

Regardless of the motivation of the Thresher Maw incident, Cerberus had to deal with this. Yes, you could argue that the Thresher Maw incident should not have happened, but the fact is that it did, and Cerberus had to protect its interests. (Side note: don't be so quick to throw out the possibility that Cerberus is still part of the Alliance. I believe it is very possible either way.)

[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

Chasca, aka UNC: Colony Of The Dead
This one gets a lot of attention for the heavily debated fact of whether or not Cerberus was responsible for this, mostly due to the claim that there is no specific information implicating Cerberus, except for the presence of their agent.  However, the game explicitly states that Cerberus is responsible, meaning they had the Dragon's Teeth delivered to the colony with the intention of having every member of the colony turned into husks for study.  Several logs speak of the Cerberus agent who was present who left, and finishing the mission nets you the message "Cerberus has a lot to answer for."  There's really no way to argue against this when the GAME ITSELF declares you guilty.
[/quote]

As you stated, Cerberus involvement is still deniable (although it probably was them). Again, the motives/purpose of what they did is still in question. I do not think it is fair to assume they intended the Dragon's Teeth to change all of the colonists into husks. It is very possible they were simply studying them, something went wrong, and they got the hell out of there.

[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

Exogeni and the Thorian Creeper
The only possible way that Cerberus could've gotten Creepers is if they either have plants inside of Exogeni, or if Exogeni itself is one of Cerberus' corporate fronts.  I'm inclined to believe the latter, because otherwise it makes almost no sense for Exogeni to do what they did.  To purposefully use the colonists as a test group like that is massively unethical.  Such a corporation trying that today would be committing corporate and financial suicide.  Why then would Exogeni take the risk of their operations being uncovered and their entire company ruined?  Not to mention there are several logs on the servers that talk about Cerberus.
[/quote]

To be honest, claiming Cerberus is behind Feros is a pretty big leap. It is possible they were involved, but it is far from a sure thing. Most likely, they had contacts with Exogeni and stole/bought Thorian samples to run their own tests.

[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

The Rachni
Again, Cerberus sticking their fingers into something they shouldn't.  Somehow samples from Noveria were taken and intended to be used in various experiments, but like anything Cerberus seems to do, it blew up in their face.  While this isn't per say a crime so much as them being incredibly stupid, it's still a mark against them seeing as how horribly wrong this particular project went.
[/quote]

As you stated, this is simply a failed experiment. Nothing to see here.

[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

Mass Effect: Ascension
Yeah...Cerberus decides to go screw with the Migrant Fleet because TIM is worried about them having the biggest fleet of ships, and oh yeah, Grayson and his daughter, and infiltrating the Ascension Project.  Wow, good one Cerberus, let's go around antagonizing ENTIRE alien races because they happen to have a lot of ships and made the geth, despite the fact most of those ships aren't probably meant strictly for combat!
[/quote]

I have not read Ascension so I do not feel qualified to debate this point so I will leave it alone.

[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

Trident
The Cerberus Daily News reported back in January about a Cerberus Cell in the Terminus Systems which was experimenting with biotic-suppressants which had a number of incredibly nasty and potentially lethal side effects on humans AND aliens, dubbed the "torture den."  On top of that, they decide to blow up police cars and kill law enforcement to spring one of their allies out of jail.  Hard to deny you're terrorists now, huh?
[/quote]

"Unlocking human biotic potential"  seems to be a theme behind multiple Cerberus experiments. It is definitely morally grey. I think one should note both the pain to be inflicted on those involved and the potential gains. I agree it's questionable, but you cannot disagree that it has a good purpose.

[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

Project Overlord
Sweet Jesus where to begin.  Attempting to create a virus-like "figurehead" to control the geth as a means of attaining "bloodless victory" over a race (yes, the geth can likely be called a race all on it's own) that you learn latter only a small minority have any violent intentions, and for the most part simply want to be left alone.  On top of that, you use an autistic man to power your new VI/AI/whatever-David-is-now regardless of the ethical issues with that, and then send me an email about how this'll set back our research (which isn't even necessary btw) by several decades...yeah, screw you TIM.
[/quote]

First of all, you learn from the GETH that most geth are not violent. I don't trust legion farther than I can throw him. But I digress, honestly, if you can learn to control the entire geth network by torturing one human, I feel like that has to be worth it. I know it's extremely distasteful seeing David, but if that experiment works out thousands of lives will be saved.

[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

Tetlin/Pragia
Yeah, experimentation on humans is already a morally gray area approaching on black, let's just go full-black by experimenting on children, torturing them and killing them in order to decide what is or isn't a good procedure to use on one specific child (Jack aka Subject Zero) because she has incredible biotic powers that you gave her a result of earlier torture and experimentation, which was likely done of them for YEARS.
[/quote]

It is very clear in-game that this cell went rogue and TIM ordered them shutdown.

[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

Mass Effect: Retribution
With the release of Retribution, Cerberus' already shaking reputation just goes straight the crapper and doesn't recover...While I go into details, for the sake of those who may not have read it, or may not wish to have it spoiled, I'll simply leave this URL here for your perusal: http://social.biowar...index/3263041/1 However, to sum it up?  TIM kidnaps Grayson because TIM wants revenge, puts Reaper-tech in a dude, dude runs amok, TIM gets his s*** ruined.
[/quote]

I do not know enough about this situation so I will once again abstain from commenting.

[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

Yandoa
Brought to my attention by a commentor, this is apparently an incident from Ascension in which Cerberus engineered an accident in order to purposefully expose colonists (the colony's name is the title) to Eezo in order to taint them and hopefully fuel some biotic babies.  I quote from the Mass Effect Wiki:

"The 'industrial accident' over Yandoa was actually orchestrated by Cerberus, and committed in an act of sabotage by Paul Grayson. After being exposed to eezo in utero, Gillian was later given to Paul by the Illusive Man; the fate of her parents back on Yandoa is not known."
[/quote]

This is just another example of experiment with biotics. I find it hard to completely condemn Cerberus for these types of experiments. Is it morally questionable? Absolutely. Is it absolutely condemnable? I do not think so.

[quote]RiouHotaru wrote...

That about sums up their major crimes.  TIM has to be one of the worse human resource management persons I've ever seen.  He hires morally challenged people and throws money at them to solve a problem or research new tech.  But when thing get ethically suspect or go straight down the crapper, TIM is quick to put up his hands and claim plausible deniability.  This means at best, TIM is a grossly negligent supervisor who can't seem to hire anyone decent to save his own life, or he's intentionally choosing the ethically suspect individuals knowing full-well what will result, but claims to condemn it just so he doesn't look like a Complete Monster.

I dunno about you...but I can't see a valid reason to support them beyond what was given to help stop the Collectors.[/quote]

Cerberus is not about having a high public opinion. They are a black ops group pushing for the advancement for humanity. Their methods are extreme and often morally questionable, but, for what we know, they are interested in the advancement of humanity. I can work with a group like this. 

[EricHVela]

Even without some of that info, I got to the point of making Shepard constantly deny any willingness to work for Cerberus and berate them whenever he had the chance to do so. I did my best to make Shepard "disappoint" TIM. I only wish I could have gone further with it.

[mosor]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Yes, I confess, I have an anti-Cerberus bias.  But in this game there really isn't room for middle ground in ME2.  Either you have to be with Cerberus or against them.  Also, I don't think there's necessarily mental strength involved.  Many of these projects the scientists clearly showed a complete lack of moral fiber whatsoever.

Also, Overlord IS TIM's fault.  He hired them to solve a problem and threw money at them, then threatened to end the project unless they produced viable results.  Did he expect them to just give up and say "I'm sorry TIM, we can't do it."?  I doubt that.  That Dr. Archer chose to take it one step too far doesn't excuse TIM.  He hired Archer after all.  And in his email he claims that "while he doesn't condone Archer's actions, our research will be pushed back several decades" as though Archer's actions were justified due to the results.  So clearly, despite saying "No that was bad", he didn't mind the fact it got the problem potentially closer to being solved.

Again, at best, TIM is grossly negligent and a poor human resources manager.  At worse, he's intentionally malicious in selecting whom he hires.

There is always a middle ground. Don't think for a second that just because I feel Cerberus is necessary, I also blindly trust them. I fully expect them to stab me in the back when Shepard's usefulness is over and he gets in their way. They're using you, and you're using them. For now you have the same goals, to stop the reapers.

As for Overlord, tell me what CEO wouldn't pull money out of a project if it wasn't producing viable results? If Archer was a strong enough man, he would have said that we can't do this safely, or we need more time. TIM would have either given him more resources to work with, or figured that the project isn't going any further. What caused the disaster was Dr. Archer's ego. He deperately wanted a discovery to feed it and sacrificed his brother in an attempt to achieve it. The carnage was the result of Archer's ego, not TIM.


Your last comment isn't either or. TIM isn't a grossly negligent and poor human resources manager. You can't be inept like that and build an organization like cerberus. He would have been run out of town years ago if that were the case. As for being malicious, that's being a stretch. It's impossible to read Archer's mind. He was a brilliant scientist. He wasn't a known psycho or criminal. How can you say TIM was malicious for hiring him?

Modifié par mosor, 29 juillet 2010 - 02:46 .

[Throw_this_away]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Welp, I managed to learn about the events of Mass Effect Retribution, and I think that Bioware trying to use Pet The Dog moments to pad Cerberus out and make it fluffier have met with disaster.  There's been any threads where people defend Cerberus or claim that "Cerberus does what is best".  However, their growing list of crimes against humanity and the galactic community just keep getting bigger and bigger.

I dunno about you...but I can't see a valid reason to support them beyond what was given to help stop the Collectors.

Shep worked with Cerberus because they gave him resources, and they were the only people that believed Shep, and the only people that had similar goals.  Yes TIM manipulated Shep... but My shep knows he is working with the devil. My shep also used TIM.  ****** for tat.  

I think that the real mind-fu@K will be coming in ME3 when we learn that the alliance has been secretly researching reaper tech from the recovered bits of sovergn (the writing was on the wall for that considering how it was mentioned that the salvage went missing...).  The writers set us up to hate cerberus at the end of ME2.  Everyone will want to run to the Alliance for help in ME3.... but they will be in for a ethical/moral surprise. 

The Alliance isn't as naive or honorable as they are leading on.  They were just scared of Shep so they sent him off to hunt geth after ME1 to get them out of their hair as they rebuild and research the reapers.  

Modifié par Throw_this_away, 29 juillet 2010 - 03:19 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

In sorry, your attack on Cerberus is rendered ineffective by the Illusive Man's incredible sense of style.

[ThisIsMadness91]

Nightwriter wrote...

Who has just said that if the Illusive man wants to make Reapers he would be willing to help him abduct his victims and lead a team to kidnap elcor colonists.

The people in the thread have responded by saying this is inefficient use of resources.

Instead of, you know, abominable.

Have these people been asked if they would be prepared to sacrfice themselves to make said Reapers if their god...I mean, the Illusive Man...asked them to?

ReconTeam wrote...

In sorry, your attack on Cerberus is rendered ineffective by the Illusive Man's incredible sense of style.

So if the Alliance had better outfits, would they become better than Cerberus?

[Inquisitor Recon]

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...
So if the Alliance had better outfits, would they become better than Cerberus?

Oh no, the Cerberus uniforms are terrible. But TIM himself has such a badass style to his office and everything he does.

[RiouHotaru]

mosor wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Yes, I confess, I have an anti-Cerberus bias.  But in this game there really isn't room for middle ground in ME2.  Either you have to be with Cerberus or against them.  Also, I don't think there's necessarily mental strength involved.  Many of these projects the scientists clearly showed a complete lack of moral fiber whatsoever.

Also, Overlord IS TIM's fault.  He hired them to solve a problem and threw money at them, then threatened to end the project unless they produced viable results.  Did he expect them to just give up and say "I'm sorry TIM, we can't do it."?  I doubt that.  That Dr. Archer chose to take it one step too far doesn't excuse TIM.  He hired Archer after all.  And in his email he claims that "while he doesn't condone Archer's actions, our research will be pushed back several decades" as though Archer's actions were justified due to the results.  So clearly, despite saying "No that was bad", he didn't mind the fact it got the problem potentially closer to being solved.

Again, at best, TIM is grossly negligent and a poor human resources manager.  At worse, he's intentionally malicious in selecting whom he hires.

There is always a middle ground. Don't think for a second that just because I feel Cerberus is necessary, I also blindly trust them. I fully expect them to stab me in the back when Shepard's usefulness is over and he gets in their way. They're using you, and you're using them. For now you have the same goals, to stop the reapers.

As for Overlord, tell me what CEO wouldn't pull money out of a project if it wasn't producing viable results? If Archer was a strong enough man, he would have said that we can't do this safely, or we need more time. TIM would have either given him more resources to work with, or figured that the project isn't going any further. What caused the disaster was Dr. Archer's ego. He deperately wanted a discovery to feed it and sacrificed his brother in an attempt to achieve it. The carnage was the result of Archer's ego, not TIM.


Your last comment isn't either or. TIM isn't a grossly negligent and poor human resources manager. You can't be inept like that and build an organization like cerberus. He would have been run out of town years ago if that were the case. As for being malicious, that's being a stretch. It's impossible to read Archer's mind. He was a brilliant scientist. He wasn't a known psycho or criminal. How can you say TIM was malicious for hiring him?

You're right, you're only working with Cerberus to help save the Colonists and stop the Reapers.  I'll concede that's some kind of middle ground, but when you get to the Collector Base, you have to make a choice which either puts you with Cerberus, or against them.  Sadly, the game will not let you Take A Third Option out of that one.

And as for Overlord...you're right it's technically Archer's fault, but what does it say about TIM when the people he hires for these projects are willing to essentially suppress any form of moral behavior to try and please him and keep getting his money or his approval?  I mean, Pragia went rogue out of desperation because he was going to shut them down not because they were abusing kids, but because they weren't producing viable results.  Same with Overlord.  It seems rather telling of TIM's mindset.  Why is it the people he hires always seem willing to serious compromise on their own ethics?  Also, I'm sure of either project had achieved positive results without completely going into the toilet, TIM wouldn't care how they got there.

His email if you take David to the Academy states that, while he doesn't approve of what Archer did and that David will be well treated for, their research into Overlord will be set back possibly forever because a person like David is so unique.  I couldn't help but be appalled by this response, in which he seemingly approves of your actions then very gently backhands you (probably an exaggeration still) for it.

[OmegaXI]

Ok While at time it seems I'm pro-ceberus I'm actually mid-ground on them. I feel the best thing to say about cerberus and their fails/sucess is a saying that I learned while drinking with some Russian Friends, " The road to hell is paved with good intentions".



Cerberus had done some unforgiviable things no arguement there, but it seems once they learned about they Reapers, as Jacob said at the beginning of Mass Effect 2 ,"Things Change".



Cerberus is the lesser of the two evils, its a human "monster" that is being used to fight the Greater Monsters (the Reapers). Also they are black-ops alot like the Specters, who had enough ruthless agents.



But what it comes down to is that they like their name Cerberus, The hound of hell that keeps/guards all the demons and evils from attacking humanity. The hound of hell is a monster used to protect aganist other monsters. There will come a day that they will have to answer for their crimes but I feel that the Specters, the STG, and the Turians must also answer for their crimes.

[Killjoy Cutter]

I'm going to go a bit in the "meta" direction here, and ask a different question: how much of this comes from the two games, and how much from other media -- novels, comics, etc?



Do the same writers write the novels and comics, that wrote the storylines for the games? If not, how much editorial control does Bio really exercise over the detailed content of the outside media?



In other words, just how canon should the outside media be considered?



(Yeah, I was just given ME2 as a gift, and this thread came up when I ran a Google search for something else entirely, for whatever reason.)

[OmegaXI]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I'm going to go a bit in the "meta" direction here, and ask a different question: how much of this comes from the two games, and how much from other media -- novels, comics, etc?

Do the same writers write the novels and comics, that wrote the storylines for the games? If not, how much editorial control does Bio really exercise over the detailed content of the outside media?

In other words, just how canon should the outside media be considered?

(Yeah, I was just given ME2 as a gift, and this thread came up when I ran a Google search for something else entirely, for whatever reason.)

Thats a really good point you make, and grats on the gift its an amazing game.

[scotchtape622]

Each novel and comic has either been written by, or overseen by, one of Bioware's writers.

[Killjoy Cutter]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Each novel and comic has either been written by, or overseen by, one of Bioware's writers.

It sounds like we might have an instance of a classic error in writing fiction, in which we are being told to believe one thing about Cerberus, but shown that we should believe another.  Not having had a chance to read the non-game media yet, I can't make a firm statement on that. 


Someone must have brought the following up before, but:

1.  Cerberus was the multi-headed dog which stood guard at the gates of Hades in Greek mythology.  I'm not sure how much symbolism and metaphor is supposed to be loaded in that name, but it's their for the taking.

2.  In ME2, if you don't have subtitles on, you really have to be paying attention to catch the fact that the character is "The Illusive Man", not "The Elusive Man".  Big difference, and yet perhaps an intentional play on words.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Someone must have brought the following up before, but:

1.  Cerberus was the multi-headed dog which stood guard at the gates of Hades in Greek mythology.  I'm not sure how much symbolism and metaphor is supposed to be loaded in that name, but it's their for the taking.

2.  In ME2, if you don't have subtitles on, you really have to be paying attention to catch the fact that the character is "The Illusive Man", not "The Elusive Man".  Big difference, and yet perhaps an intentional play on words.

1. There is another thread that talks about this. Most likely it refers to the three branches of Cerberus (Military, Political, Scientific).

2. I believe this is intentional.

[KarumaK]

I'd like to point out that you are listing only 11 failures, some of which were partial failures and one of which was a success.



You can't condemn a galaxy wide organization for 10 failures. Especially as you have no idea how many successes, and other failures, they've had in comparison.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Mukora wrote...

All novels were written by Drew Karpshyn. The HEAD writer. So, its kind of up to him what Cerberus is like...

I gathered something of the sort from another earlier post.

I'm just speculating that perhaps the reader/player is being presented with an inconsistent reality regarding Cerberus, either intentionally, or through poor writing.

[Maestro975]

RiouHotaru wrote...

 (under this silly theory that Cerberus is still a part of the Alliance).

 

In Star Trek, Section 31 is still part of Starfleet. And the Alliance is not as goody-goody as you think. They were perfectly willing to let the Council die to advance humanity, they have done their own illegal AI research (Hannibal and Eliza), and there's that incriminating data that Kasumi's boyfriend found. 

 On top of that, they decide to blow up police cars and kill law enforcement to spring one of their allies out of jail.  Hard to deny you're terrorists now, huh?

I kill cops all the time in GTA and Saints Row. Almost therapeutic. Fascist bastards. Seriously though, in resistance movements, law enforcements are legitimate targets. The Euskadi Ta Askatasuna (ETA) are not terrorists, but they have killed cops. The cops that the Maquis killed were Vichyites, so they were certainly by no means innocent. If by some stupid reason, Prohibition was reinstated, and I firebombed institutions that supported it, that would make me a resistance fighter, not a terrorist. Conservative establishments can be somewhat heavy handed sometimes, forcing the hand of those critical of them.

Project Overlord
Sweet Jesus where to begin.  Attempting to create a virus-like "figurehead" to control the geth as a means of attaining "bloodless victory" over a race (yes, the geth can likely be called a race all on it's own) that you learn latter only a small minority have any violent intentions, and for the most part simply want to be left alone.  On top of that, you use an autistic man to power your new VI/AI/whatever-David-is-now regardless of the ethical issues with that, and then send me an email about how this'll set back our research (which isn't even necessary btw) by several decades...yeah, screw you TIM.

Does the name Daro'Xen mean anything to you. She and Han'Gerrell have a similar agenda regarding the Geth, and don't think for one minute that they wouldn't be just as ruthless about it. And so would Tali's father had he lived to see Xen's plans come to fruition.

Tetlin/Pragia
Yeah, experimentation on humans is already a morally gray area approaching on black, let's just go full-black by experimenting on children, torturing them and killing them in order to decide what is or isn't a good procedure to use on one specific child (Jack aka Subject Zero) because she has incredible biotic powers that you gave her a result of earlier torture and experimentation, which was likely done of them for YEARS.

Rogue facility. Shut down.

Two other characters I present as frames of reference:

Cigarette-Smoking Man (The X-Files): Though arguably he is the show's big bad (and a highly memorable, complex villain), he could arguably be considered a heroic figure. He is, in his own way, trying to prevent an impending apocalpyse/invasion, and if people knew about said event, then there would be mass panic and anarchy, that could theorhetically undo his progress. So he obviously tries hard to keep that infomation secret, because unlike Mulder, he knows how stupid and thin skinned the masses are.

Magneto (X-Men):  He's fighting for the preservation/survival of his race. Yeah, he also wants mutant dominance, but, like CSM, he has seen the worst humanity has to offer and knows that they, as a whole are dumb enough to make those same mistakes again. He also knows the great truth, when someone who doesn't like what you're doing initiates a pushback against you, you NEED to be as ruthless as they are.

Gul Dukat: (Star Trek: DS9) He never agreed with the occupation of Bajor, but once he was placed in charge of the planet, he tried hard to make sure that the occupation was as bloodless as possible. Several atrocious things happened during his tenure that he did not authorize and actually tried to stop, and the Bajoran people blamed him nonetheless, resulting in 5 assasination attempts. He responded by killing 100 people, either rebels or people who agreed with the rebels politically and ideologically. By killing 100 instead of 1000, he showed that he, in fact, was somewhat merciful, and not a monster. If I were POTUS, and someone attempted to assassinate me, I'd probably take a similar retaliation against those who shared the beliefs of my would-be killer.


Anyway, TIM is no Paragon, but few are. The galaxy he inhabits is a rough place, and not for goodie-goodies. He's certainly not as bad as, say, Vido Santiago, and Cerberus is no dumber than the Quarians.

Modifié par Maestro975, 29 juillet 2010 - 06:23 .

[Nightwriter]

You have to admit, your counter-arguments for R's list are still kind of weak, Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams (we must find you a nickname, and it can't be COAW cuz it looks like COW).

Though I do admire you for your succinct and intelligent address of each point.

It just sort of amounts to, "yeah, that is bad, but still", or "they might not have done it" or "I don't know about that" or "it could've paid off" or "well they did what they must, whadaya gonna do."

In the end, we never see justifiable results for Cerberus's crazy projects, and meanwhile, their successful projects seem isolated only to Commander Shepard.

But it requires more than for the organization to be successful only when the plot makes it necessary.