397 réponses à ce sujet

[angj57]

RiouHotaru wrote...

My counter to this is simple: How did Cerberus get the Thorian Creepers you find at the base as part of the mission UNC: Hades' Dogs.  Those creepers had to come from Feros, which means at minimum, Exogeni has people in the company who are actually Cerberus agents.  And since EDI did state that Cerberus uses corporate fronts to fund themselves, doesn't it make sense if Exogeni was a Cerberus corporation?  It would certainly explain why a company would take such a ridiculous financial and political risk like experimenting on the colonists.  Even with the alien analogy, I just can't see a Corporate CEO looking at this and going "Yeah, let's use the colonists, no one will find out what we're doing!"

I mean, maybe it's just me, but that comes off as a massive violation of common sense.

Cerberus got the Thorian Creepers the way you get anything from a corporation: they bought them. That's what corporations are for-- selling things to make money. You don't think a corporate CEO would see potential profit in something that could possibly control minds or create zombie soldiers? Seriously? And had the project worked, and the colonists remained Thorial thralls, I really doubt they would have been able to file a law suit. It is a small colony that would have been easy to sweep under the rug or deny any knowledge of the Thorian had a rogue Spectre, Geth army, and then another Spectre not come through.

My impression about Cerberus corporate fronts were that they allow Cerberus to do things with a low profile or allow them to launder money that looks clean, so they could donate money to politicians and stuff like that. Much like how a mob boss might own a string of casinos or laundramats so that he can have his money invested legitimately and pay people in a less suspicious way. Exo Geni is a huge, high profile corporation, presumably with huge numbers of investors and lots of attention-- it is totally implausible that no one would notice them being a front for a terrorist organization.

Exo Geni clearly has a working relationship with Cerberus, but I maintain that Cerberus is a customer and not a direct controller. We know for a fact based on our experience on Noveria and Illium that the massive interplanetary corporations are in to some nasty and dangerous stuff, whether it is Rachni experiments, indentured servitude, AI research, etc etc. I don't think it's a strech at all to imagine that Exo Geni found the Thorian and thought they might be able to make money off of it.

Modifié par angj57, 29 juillet 2010 - 10:49 .

[Arijharn]

In other words, it doesn't make sense for a corporate front company to do unethical practices when they could just allow the organisation that it screens do the bad things instead. Otherwise, what is the point? (Try to ignore the joke 'because Cerberus is inept and can't do it,' I want you to think about it)

[Nightwriter]

angj57 wrote...

2papercuts wrote...

the whole shepard thing with the Normandy and EDI seems to be the only thing Cerberus did right, which also includes the Discovery of the Collector's Activities. At everything else, they are incompetent . Although they found it, the Derelict Reaper blew up in their face, along with anything else they do.

I maintain that no science team could have dealt with the Derelict Reaper any better. What was gained by that operation-- the Reaper IFF and the ability to attack the Collector base FAR outweighs the loss of one science team, as callous as that may seem. A more cautious approach would have served no purpose-- the Collectors would have kept up their abductions, and when the decision was made to enter the Reaper, indoctrination would have still been a risk. The fact that there are casulties does NOT mean that it "blew up in their faces" anymore than the fact that there were casulties at Virmire meant that that operation was a failure for Shepard.

No organics should've set foot on the Reaper. The science team needed to data mine using advanced mechs or high level robotic probes. Employ the use of an AI like EDI, or a VI. It's not hard. Scientists who did enter the Reaper should've been limited to two or three - not the hordes that apparently turned into husks and resulted in the absolute catastrophe we found when we boarded.

It's standard hazard safety, people: if there's a Reaper, dead or alive, you need to worry about indoctrination.

But the science team really isn't what I'm fussing about. TIM would just say costs and results, blah blah blah.

The derelict Reaper project wasn't a failure because it killed the whole team. It was a failure because the catastrophe I found on board made it necessary to actually destroy the Reaper.

[DPSSOC]

RiouHotaru wrote...
Akuze
This is arguably the most prominent crime on their list, seeing as it's possible they're directly responsible for luring the marines and the thresher maws together.  Toombs claims this possibility is the truth, but at best, Cerberus knew where the marines were going and did nothing to stop them, wanting to observe and measure the result and outcome.  The fact they then kidnap Toombs and experiment on him, probably for years, is just insult upon injury.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Akuze was carried out when Cerberus was still under Alliance oversight, so it's as much their crime as anyone elses.  Furthermore when developing defenses against and treatments for various forms of attack the only real way to di it is to have someone be attacked.  Now waiting for this to happen isn't viabl as you can't know when, or where, such attacks will take place.  Akuze was bringing the inevitability of a Thresher Maw encounter into a controlled environment to allow for observation and analysis.  To put another way, the only way to test anti-venom is for someone to get bit.

RiouHotaru wrote...
Admiral Kohoku
Another prominent crime in Cerberus' belt, they killed Kahoku for tracking them down, to keep him from exposing them (little good it did them, Shepard finds them and finishes the job).  However, the apologists like to claim that Kahoku was either a traitor or a "security leak" (under this silly theory that Cerberus is still a part of the Alliance).  But nowhere do the apologists explain the reasoning behind Cerberus purposefully luring his men out just so a thresher maw would ruin them.  There's nothing of importance in that system, and unless Cerberus was trying to replicate Akuze, this action seems almost purely for the lulz.

Kahoku's men were investigating Armistan Banes death.  Now if Banes had some connection to Cerberus, either they were responsible for his death or he was an agent or the list goes on, then in order to maintain their secrecy Cerberus must eliminate Kahoku's men.  What better way than to arrange for their death to look like an accident, tragic but not anyone's fault.  The soldiers are mourned and no one is the wiser.  The problem was Shepard found out it wasn't an accident, told Kahoku, and Kahoku started looking into it.  Now at this point all responsibility for Kahoku's death falls on Kahoku.  As soon as he found out who he was dealing with he knew, and he says as much in his message, that he was signing his death warrant by pushing forward.  He chose to do so, believing it to be the right thing, and paid the price.  He could have walked away, he could have let it slide, he chose not to and in doing so left Cerberus with no alternative.

Now that's all dependent on Banes having some connection to Cerberus.  If not then it's possible this was a follow up mission to Akuze to test the effectiveness of the countermeasures they've developed.

RiouHotaru wrote...
Chasca, aka UNC: Colony Of The Dead
This one gets a lot of attention for the heavily debated fact of whether or not Cerberus was responsible for this, mostly due to the claim that there is no specific information implicating Cerberus, except for the presence of their agent.  However, the game explicitly states that Cerberus is responsible, meaning they had the Dragon's Teeth delivered to the colony with the intention of having every member of the colony turned into husks for study.  Several logs speak of the Cerberus agent who was present who left, and finishing the mission nets you the message "Cerberus has a lot to answer for."  There's really no way to argue against this when the GAME ITSELF declares you guilty.

The game is played from Shepard's perspective (mostly).  This is important to note, it appears that things went down as you said, but we have no real way of knowing that.  So let's look at what we know; Cerberus had Dragon's teeth delivered to the colony, Cerberus had an agent on the colony, that agent left, the colony was turned to husks.  Given what we know about the Dragon's Teeth and Reaper technology in general it's entirely possible Cerberus sent the Dragon's Teeth for study, the agent, on noticing odd behaviour among the colonists (and perhaps themself) leaves the colony to report from a more secure location, the colonists begin throwing themselves on the Dragon's Teeth, colonists become husks.  That's a possible explanation of what happened, by no means the only explanation but one must always acknowledge how much we do not know when judging someones actions. 

RiouHotaru wrote...
Trident
The Cerberus Daily News reported back in January about a Cerberus Cell in the Terminus Systems which was experimenting with biotic-suppressants which had a number of incredibly nasty and potentially lethal side effects on humans AND aliens, dubbed the "torture den."  On top of that, they decide to blow up police cars and kill law enforcement to spring one of their allies out of jail.  Hard to deny you're terrorists now, huh?

Again, like Akuze, there's only one way to test something like this.  It's unpleasant, morally questionable, and cold but it's a fact of life.  And yes like many medical tests there are going to be people who suffer in the testing phase, unfortunate but inevitable.

RiouHotaru wrote...
Tetlin/Pragia
Yeah, experimentation on humans is already a morally gray area approaching on black, let's just go full-black by experimenting on children, torturing them and killing them in order to decide what is or isn't a good procedure to use on one specific child (Jack aka Subject Zero) because she has incredible biotic powers that you gave her a result of earlier torture and experimentation, which was likely done of them for YEARS.

Again this was done when Cerberus was part of the Alliance so think about where you really want to point that finger.  Yes what they did was morally and ethically wrong.  However when playing technological cath-up with aliens who have at least a millenia on us you can't afford to take things slow.  The research was brutal but fast and clearly effective.  Ends justify the means.

[Nightwriter]

The only real counter-argument you can give for these things is results. Results that will save lives. Lots of them.

So far all we've seen is that Cerberus can only save lives when it directly relates to Shepard.

[Giggles_Manically]

Ah yes Cerberus is justified because for some reasons Humans DESERVE to be the rulers of the galaxy.



rrriiiggghhhhtttt.......

[Nightwriter]

By data mine, I mean send mechs in there to "tear the place apart", as you say. There's no reason it should take longer that way, not if they're competent about it. And anyway, when exactly did they find that Reaper? From the setup inside, it looks like they had quite a long time with it.

[Arijharn]

ShadowJ20 wrote...

Cerberus screws up about every experiment...EXCEPT when it REALLY counts. Like saving Shepard buiding EDI, Reaper IFF etc. Even Samara says TIM doesn't have the wisdom to use the collector base. (If you give it to him) If there's any decision that's going to haunt renegade players then it better be that one.

Honestly, what the hell does Samara know? All her experiences is based off reading about humanity beforehand.

As an aside though, doing something, even if morally reprehensible is better (considering what we know or rather think we know about the threat of the Reapers) than doing absolutely nothing and just trusting fate (or destiny) to let the cards fall where they may.

If the difference between a life and a death rests upon a human whose biotic capabilities are more apt than what is usual for humans, then I would think that the gains enabled by Cerberus' research efforts have been essentially vindicated.

Against the Reapers there can be nothing short of total victory. Victory is not going to just fall into our lap (well, it will -- we are playing a game here and both Paragons and Renegades will be able to win) I just can not picture a realistic world in which you could destroy the Collector base (given the paucity of options available) and win wholesale against the Reapers.

"Yes there will be casaulties, yes there will be devastation. But this is war!. A War against something which mankind has never seen before. If you don't do everything you can, if you don't use everything you have, then you are falling every man, woman and child. Just do the right thing General, that's all I can ask." - Acting Director Redmond Boyle, Command &  Conquer 3 (paraphrased)

First of all, you may wonder why I'm quoting a video game character, but allow me to put it in context (which is not quite similiar to ME, but humour me and I'll explain in a bit). After something like 50 years of intermittant war between the Global Defense Initiative (the 'good guys') and the Brotherhood of Nod (the 'bad guys') over a strange mineral like substance which has helped render the earth almost inhospitable along come the Scrin, an alien species that seeks to destroy all of humanity just to harvest the minerals. Redmond Boyle authorizes a weapon that goes against the GDI core central beliefs to bring about a quick (yet total) victory over the rampaging alien army. It is my belief that while wrong, Redmond makes a very strong argument. As a person in charge (you are a General) you can not be swayed by emotional input, you must look (with perhaps a cold persona) at the facts and make your decisions based on evidence in front of you.

While Teltin, while Akuze are pretty horrendous examples of what Cerberus has (or hasn't) done, the Systems Alliance (and humanity) has benefited from their research; Teltin 'piggybacked' the Alliance's Ascension program (and it wouldn't be outrageous to assume that Ascension benefited in some form from the studies on Pragia) (which your Shephard may of attended!) and at the most cynical;  Akuze led to the development of IFV's like the Mako (who knows, maybe Cord-Hislop manufactures those?).

[Arijharn]

Nightwriter wrote...

By data mine, I mean send mechs in there to "tear the place apart", as you say. There's no reason it should take longer that way, not if they're competent about it. And anyway, when exactly did they find that Reaper? From the setup inside, it looks like they had quite a long time with it.

You probably don't send mechs in to 'tear the place apart' for the same reason why you probably don't use excavator's and earth movers to unearth archaeology sites.

[Nightwriter]

I don't like this business of comparing Cerberus to the Council.

It's like comparing a pile of feces to a pile of vomit.

I judge Cerberus in and of themselves, and I judge the Council in and of themselves.

I seriously think Shepard should just focus on his/her own renegade army and throw both organizations to hell.

[Arijharn]

Nightwriter wrote...

I seriously think Shepard should just focus on his/her own renegade army and throw both organizations to hell.

I both agree and don't (that makes no sense!), personally I think that Shephard, while capable, doesn't have the intelligence gathering resources of either parties and having both also gives him the benefit of using official and unofficial channels to get his aims.

The only problem with how it would work because of this is that he's only ever getting biased information, but at the same time presumably the Reapers are going to come rather soon (although not necessarily en mass) so he probably wouldn't have the capability to set up his own intelligence contacts (Liara?)

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I seriously think Shepard should just focus on his/her own renegade army and throw both organizations to hell.

Shepard is a front-line soldier, not a warlord.

You disappoint me.

[scotchtape622]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I seriously think Shepard should just focus on his/her own renegade army and throw both organizations to hell.

Shepard is a front-line soldier, not a warlord.

Wrong. Shepard is a Commander, an officer. In the united states navy, commanders are often given command over a destroyer, a massive ship that has around 300 men.

If Shepard had stayed in the Alliance military, and he had been awarded for his actions, he would have likely been promoted to at least a Rear Admiral.

[Arijharn]

I doubt it, if only because I find it unlikely that he'd be promoted through 3+ ranks on the basis of a single operation of which he didn't really control in any real way (other than as his authority as a Spectre)

[Nightwriter]

Arijharn wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I seriously think Shepard should just focus on his/her own renegade army and throw both organizations to hell.

I both agree and don't (that makes no sense!), personally I think that Shephard, while capable, doesn't have the intelligence gathering resources of either parties and having both also gives him the benefit of using official and unofficial channels to get his aims.

The only problem with how it would work because of this is that he's only ever getting biased information, but at the same time presumably the Reapers are going to come rather soon (although not necessarily en mass) so he probably wouldn't have the capability to set up his own intelligence contacts (Liara?)

Well, I'm not sure ME3 will be an intelligence-gathering game, Ari.

But all the same, you do have Liara and her organization, and you now have all of Lazarus Cell at your command even if you give the I-Man the finger.

While having both the Council and Cerberus at your disposal would be
great, it will eventually lead to conflict, and not necessarily in the
long run.

You have Wrex & co, you have the quarians, and you have the geth (if you play your cards right). These groups, while not being totally useless at information gathering themselves, could at the very least intimidate the Council or Cerberus into working with you whether they like it or not.

Nothing says, "I've had enough" like showing up with the largest combined fleet in the galaxy.

[Arijharn]

I'm such an idiot, I meant intelligence sources as in putting words into peoples ears (as opposed to the other way around) to better facilitate the outcomes you wish (Very Machiavellian I know).



I got the impression though that Cerberus Cells are very task orientated. Just because we are with people who know how to operate a warship doesn't presuppose their ability to talk with skill to get what Shephard wants (you know, whenever a new treaty is signed and as the two heads of government/organizations are smiling at the cameras and shaking hands, it's not as if they were instrumental in that, such alliances are what diplomats are there for).



At the same time, having Council involvement would presumably make it easier to enable the Council species to act (not necessarily via the council itself though). Making Cerberus involved might mean we might have easier access to top of the line experimental weapon designs (via Cerberus itself or the multitude of military corporations that make rather generous donations to the Normandy's armory -- all in good faith of course).



I don't see the Krogan (as they are now), the Quarians (I may be slightly biased here, since I see them as the only truly inept organisation in the universe, unlike Cerberus they don't seem to have a single success...) or even the Geth (not being the boogeymen anymore) as being able to pressure the Council into making concessions to you.

[angj57]

Nightwriter wrote...

By data mine, I mean send mechs in there to "tear the place apart", as you say. There's no reason it should take longer that way, not if they're competent about it. And anyway, when exactly did they find that Reaper? From the setup inside, it looks like they had quite a long time with it.

So the Reapers... a sentient machine race... can take control of organic brains from a wide variety of species... but they couldn't hack or install a virus on a mech? Even Tali can do that. We've even been told in game that they created a virus that could hack an entire race of AI machines. And you really think a bunch of crappy mechs is the answer? Come on.

Modifié par angj57, 30 juillet 2010 - 03:36 .

[Arijharn]

Shandepared wrote...

Trying to pressure the Council by threatening them with your army. Hmm. Nah, there's no way that could ever blow up in your face.

Mass Effect Gunboat diplomacy? -- without the trade aspect. I can see it like this:

"Shephard! What are you doing?!"
"See all these guns? I'm going to use them on you! Unless you dissolve the Treaty of Farixen and allow all races to mobilize their military by at least 300%! Or else!"
"Even if I have to unite you against me, you will still be united against the Reapers!"
"You are insane Shephard! Absolutely mind numbingly insane!"

[Arijharn]

Arijharn wrote...

 I know my reply will sound rather nebulous, but how do you know for sure that the Mass Effect universe hasn't seen the benefits from Cerberus' research and/or wont?

Consider Lazarus, would it not behoove Cerberus' backers (influential people/organisations obviously) to get something out of Cerberus' efforts? Perhaps that's what drove Wilson over the edge in the first place; the knowledge that he just did something absolutely remarkable and never ever getting the (deserved) credit for it - that it'll all be passed off to some 'lesser' researcher and company that would make absolute trillions out of it while he'll get what? The basic pay/medical package from Cerberus? You know, I can start to see his fury when it's put like that.

What advances could be gained from this? Who knows... perhaps the next evolution of Medi-gel?

Quoting again for emphasis (and I suppose a bit of shameless self-promotion).