397 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

angj57 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

By data mine, I mean send mechs in there to "tear the place apart", as you say. There's no reason it should take longer that way, not if they're competent about it. And anyway, when exactly did they find that Reaper? From the setup inside, it looks like they had quite a long time with it.

So the Reapers... a sentient machine race... can take control of organic brains from a wide variety of species... but they couldn't hack or install a virus on a mech? Even Tali can do that. We've even been told in game that they created a virus that could hack an entire race of AI machines. And you really think a bunch of crappy mechs is the answer? Come on.

The Reaper is dead. Dead.

It can passively indoctrinate when it's dead, but I figure the chances of it passively installing a computer virus that happens to be compatible with our mechs (they engineered the geth virus with the heretics' help) is slim.

Plus mechs can be blown up if they go haywire.

Now if you will excuse me I must reply to Arijharn who has quoted himself twice for emphasis.

[Nightwriter]

Arijharn wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

 I know my reply will sound rather nebulous, but how do you know for sure that the Mass Effect universe hasn't seen the benefits from Cerberus' research and/or wont?

Consider Lazarus, would it not behoove Cerberus' backers (influential people/organisations obviously) to get something out of Cerberus' efforts? Perhaps that's what drove Wilson over the edge in the first place; the knowledge that he just did something absolutely remarkable and never ever getting the (deserved) credit for it - that it'll all be passed off to some 'lesser' researcher and company that would make absolute trillions out of it while he'll get what? The basic pay/medical package from Cerberus? You know, I can start to see his fury when it's put like that.

What advances could be gained from this? Who knows... perhaps the next evolution of Medi-gel?

Quoting again for emphasis (and I suppose a bit of shameless self-promotion).

What are you talking about. As of ME2, medi-gel brings people back from the dead!! Like magic!!

... What it now fails to do is heal people.

Clearly what happened is Wilson's research did get taken from him and passed to the front companies, but he sabotaged it at the last minute out of revenge, cackling maniacally.

[KingofMyself]

Wasn't that the whole point? Cerberus is the ultimate representation of a political paramilitary organization - nothing but fields of gray. We were all supposed to hate Cerberus, then feel shock when we heard that we'd be working directly with them.



Don't forget the nature of their organizational structure - they're separated into individual cell units. The only one who has any knowledge of both good and bad portions of the entire structure is the Illusive Man himself. So it's fair to say the organization itself isn't "evil," but the man is - even then, he's simply one for justifying the means with its ultimate end. He's radical, perhaps even tyrannical, but I wouldn't necessarily say evil.



But he sure is one hell of a bastard.

[Nightwriter]

Most of the time, when I am saying "Cerberus did that", or "Cerberus did this", I mean the Illusive Man.

[Arijharn]

Actually, medi-gel still does heal people in ME2... try using it when you're in a firefight!

[Nightwriter]

Can't. Only way I can "heal" is to get into cover.



Anyway since it's possible Cerberus's front companies would want to disavow connection to the organization, I'm willing to bet Cerberus doesn't get credit for the research that reaches the public, if there is such work.

[angj57]

Nightwriter wrote...

Can't. Only way I can "heal" is to get into cover.

Anyway since it's possible Cerberus's front companies would want to disavow connection to the organization, I'm willing to bet Cerberus doesn't get credit for the research that reaches the public, if there is such work.

If you do all your upgrades, it will heal you and restore your shields when you use it.

[Nightwriter]

I must die first, though, angj. In ME1 medigel could heal me without me having to die. Why are we talking about this?

[KarumaK]

Nightwriter wrote...

10 is just a number. 11 is just a number.

Of course you cannot condemn an organization for a number. A number is meaningless.

It is like saying Ted Bundy was sentenced to death for the number 33.

You do not condemn an organization for a number. You condemn an organization for an atrocity, the value and enormity of which cannot be contained or quantified with a number. When the atrocities start to stack up, yes, it does mean something.

Atrocity is a subjective quality, and I've yet to see Cerberus commit even one. So when you claim to condemn them for doing such forgive me if I find it hard to agree with.

I've seen Cerberus have a small number of acceptable failures and a small number of GREAT successes.

[RiouHotaru]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

No organics should've set foot on the Reaper. The science team needed to data mine using advanced mechs or high level robotic probes. Employ the use of an AI like EDI, or a VI. It's not hard.

The IFF was a physical piece of equipment, remember? With the Reaper being "dead" there'd be no way to datamine it because there'd be no computer to hack. The only way to recover the IFF was to go aboard and tear the Reaper apart looking for it. Time was against them, they needed that IFF as soon as possible.



Anyway having just finished Retribution my faith and belief in Cerberus is even stronger. Their dedication to resisting the Reapers is absolute as well as the necessity of their existence. Anderson proved it in the end, he took Cerberus' research and will continue it.

Whether anyone likes it or not Cerberus is needed.

...Dude, TIM kindapped Greyson because he wanted to get revenge on the man for slighting him.  How this empowers anyone beliefs is mind-boggling.  Also wait what?  Needed?  TIM didn't HAVE to go messing with Grayson?  Greyson wouldn't have bothered them!  But nooooo, Cerberus had to go LOOKING for one why who could do some damage!

[DPSSOC]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I seriously think Shepard should just focus on his/her own renegade army and throw both organizations to hell.

Shepard is a front-line soldier, not a warlord.

As could be said of most warlords before they were.

[ThisIsMadness91]

ReconTeam wrote...

ThisIsMadness91 wrote...
So if the Alliance had better outfits, would they become better than Cerberus?

Oh no, the Cerberus uniforms are terrible. But TIM himself has such a badass style to his office and everything he does.

In that case, if Anderson or Udina somehow managed to top the Illusive Man's sense of style, would they have your support?

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I seriously think Shepard should just focus on his/her own renegade army and throw both organizations to hell.

Shepard is a front-line soldier, not a warlord.

He's also the one who calls the shots, though (at least on the Normandy).

[mosor]

ShadowJ20 wrote...

Well Samara has lived for nearly a 1,000 years. In games sometimes a single line can be more meaningful than you think.

Living a 1000 years means nothing if you are judging a man you never met and know only by reputation.

[mosor]

RiouHotaru wrote...

...Dude, TIM kindapped Greyson because he wanted to get revenge on the man for slighting him.  How this empowers anyone beliefs is mind-boggling.  Also wait what?  Needed?  TIM didn't HAVE to go messing with Grayson?  Greyson wouldn't have bothered them!  But nooooo, Cerberus had to go LOOKING for one why who could do some damage!

Grayson was a former drug addict, with no family, no one who would miss him and a betrayer, therefore a walking dead man to Cerberus . Thought they could kill two birds with one stone. TIM clearly underestimated how much grayson knew, and underestimated how much damage that info could do. He figured even if that info came out, he could make adjustments. He counted on the alliance getting involved, not the turians and thats why his organization got hurt.

Modifié par mosor, 30 juillet 2010 - 02:30 .

[TMA LIVE]

Nightwriter wrote...

I must die first, though, angj. In ME1 medigel could heal me without me having to die. Why are we talking about this?

Night, you do realise Medigel heals you, and gives you a shield boost within 2 seconds, as well as bringing your teammates back to life at the same time, right?

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 30 juillet 2010 - 02:48 .

[scotchtape622]

KarumaK wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

10 is just a number. 11 is just a number.

Of course you cannot condemn an organization for a number. A number is meaningless.

It is like saying Ted Bundy was sentenced to death for the number 33.

You do not condemn an organization for a number. You condemn an organization for an atrocity, the value and enormity of which cannot be contained or quantified with a number. When the atrocities start to stack up, yes, it does mean something.

Atrocity is a subjective quality, and I've yet to see Cerberus commit even one. So when you claim to condemn them for doing such forgive me if I find it hard to agree with.

I've seen Cerberus have a small number of acceptable failures and a small number of GREAT successes.

That's completely ridiculous. If any of the things on that list were commited by an organization that you weren't biased to be in favor of, you would consider it an atrocity.

[sanadawarrior]

I'm guessing all the people who are ok with the tests cerberus ran would not mind if their government kidnapped their mom/brother/wife/child/other person you care about and fed them to a great white shark in order to do a test that would help advance humanity?

[Dean_the_Young]

If feeding them to a great white shark cured cancer or some other end-state objective with real benefits, as many Cerberus projects pursue, then of course that would be far less controversial than pointless kidnapping/murder (feeding to a shark for the lols). You could likely even find volunteers: people at the end of their lives or with terminal conditions are known to volunteer for the most dangerous and experimental procedures.



The line between what we accept to others and what we accept ourselves is always one that gets harder to maintain personally as we approach: that's why we build systems, organizations, and governments in which individuals can't (shouldn't) be able to overturn the interests of the greater. People can, do, and we believe morally should support standards they would not enjoy pressed upon themselves. That's pretty much what law enforcement and regulation are all about, really.



Quite a ham-fisted attempt there.

[sanadawarrior]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If feeding them to a great white shark cured cancer or some other end-state objective with real benefits, as many Cerberus projects pursue, then of course that would be far less controversial than pointless kidnapping/murder (feeding to a shark for the lols). You could likely even find volunteers: people at the end of their lives or with terminal conditions are known to volunteer for the most dangerous and experimental procedures.

The line between what we accept to others and what we accept ourselves is always one that gets harder to maintain personally as we approach: that's why we build systems, organizations, and governments in which individuals can't (shouldn't) be able to overturn the interests of the greater. People can, do, and we believe morally should support standards they would not enjoy pressed upon themselves. That's pretty much what law enforcement and regulation are all about, really.

Quite a ham-fisted attempt there.

Your points are valid so I will rephrase the question.

What if a private interest(much like cerberus) took one of your loved ones against their will(cerberus does not seek out volunteers) to run an experiment that would end up killing them possibly in a very painful manner. The test would have a benefit for humanity. Are you willing to trust them and accept their judgements that your loved one needed to die for all of us?

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

sanadawarrior wrote...

Your points are valid so I will rephrase the question.

What if a private interest(much like cerberus) took one of your loved ones against their will(cerberus does not seek out volunteers) to run an experiment that would end up killing them possibly in a very painful manner. The test would have a benefit for humanity. Are you willing to trust them and accept their judgements that your loved one needed to die for all of us?

I would hate them for it, but that just means that I am blinded by emotion. If it was the better decision for humanity they did right. They simply didn't do right by me. Good for everyone >>> good for individual.

[sanadawarrior]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

sanadawarrior wrote...

Your points are valid so I will rephrase the question.

What if a private interest(much like cerberus) took one of your loved ones against their will(cerberus does not seek out volunteers) to run an experiment that would end up killing them possibly in a very painful manner. The test would have a benefit for humanity. Are you willing to trust them and accept their judgements that your loved one needed to die for all of us?

I would hate them for it, but that just means that I am blinded by emotion. If it was the better decision for humanity they did right. They simply didn't do right by me. Good for everyone >>> good for individual.

Would you try to stop them?

[Dean_the_Young]

sanadawarrior wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If feeding them to a great white shark cured cancer or some other end-state objective with real benefits, as many Cerberus projects pursue, then of course that would be far less controversial than pointless kidnapping/murder (feeding to a shark for the lols). You could likely even find volunteers: people at the end of their lives or with terminal conditions are known to volunteer for the most dangerous and experimental procedures.

The line between what we accept to others and what we accept ourselves is always one that gets harder to maintain personally as we approach: that's why we build systems, organizations, and governments in which individuals can't (shouldn't) be able to overturn the interests of the greater. People can, do, and we believe morally should support standards they would not enjoy pressed upon themselves. That's pretty much what law enforcement and regulation are all about, really.

Quite a ham-fisted attempt there.

Your points are valid so I will rephrase the question.

What if a private interest(much like cerberus) took one of your loved ones against their will(cerberus does not seek out volunteers) to run an experiment that would end up killing them possibly in a very painful manner. The test would have a benefit for humanity. Are you willing to trust them and accept their judgements that your loved one needed to die for all of us?

Again, I will contest the need or justification to personalize it like you insist on trying. As I already addressed, what affects me personally is a separate issue from the action itself, because of that personal connection. As an involved party, I can not be trusted or relied upon to be impartial, rational, or put others before myself. All three of these are character traits we want, demand, from people in every other decision making process, and I could not lay claim to any of them.

Would I like it? No. Would I fight it? Most likely. Does that make me right in opposing it? Not by some default formula of 'since I don't like it, it must be bad for everyone.' Empathy is a necessary tool for leadership and decisionmaking, but it must not be an overpowering or misdirected one.

Well, that's the general consensus of civilized societies. There are people who advocate a 'screw everyoneelse, I want what I want as it effects me and mine' position.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

sanadawarrior wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

sanadawarrior wrote...

Your points are valid so I will rephrase the question.

What if a private interest(much like cerberus) took one of your loved ones against their will(cerberus does not seek out volunteers) to run an experiment that would end up killing them possibly in a very painful manner. The test would have a benefit for humanity. Are you willing to trust them and accept their judgements that your loved one needed to die for all of us?

I would hate them for it, but that just means that I am blinded by emotion. If it was the better decision for humanity they did right. They simply didn't do right by me. Good for everyone >>> good for individual.

Would you try to stop them?

Yes, because I as all human being am selfish. Also, I feel I have an obligation to take care of those close to me.