397 réponses à ce sujet

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

sanadawarrior wrote...

I don't, but then again if I were the senator in question I would let my son get drafted and I'm sure many think that would be reprehensible. I agree with the rest of what you said though.

I would too because I think military service is good for a young man. The point is, though you may be an exception, most people are going to use what leverage they have to do what they think is best for their loved ones.

[mosor]

sanadawarrior wrote...

I don't, but then again if I were the senator in question I would let my son get drafted and I'm sure many think that would be reprehensible. I agree with the rest of what you said though.

I think you meant wouldn't be reprehensible. Anyway, the point being is while many may applaud putting your son in harms way for the greater good (Vietnam is a very poor example of greater good but it will have to do), many people would secretly wish that they could have the power to spare their own children from that carnage. It's human nature to protect your own. In order of priority it's usually,  immediate family, extended family and friends, clan, country, and species as a whole. This has nothing to do with right or wrong. It's ingrained by competiton and struggle during our evolution.

[BellatrixLugosi]

The problem with pro-cerberus arguement's is that they try to put out that they are the only ones after the collectors or reapers at the time being and are getting the job done. But Cerberus only really care's about Cerberus and The Illusive Man is mostly doing this so that he can get power later after Reapers are defeated. But anyone in support of this At any cost stuff is bull**** there is always another way of getting things done, paragon's prove that, and will prove it again most likely in Me3



But I think Im being a little selfish at the moment. This Topic started by listing the failures and crimes of Cerberus. Currently the only thing Cerberus has done right is resurrecting Commander Shepard

[sanadawarrior]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Incorrect. It would be hypocricy if I felt the standard I hold others by does not apply to myself. I do.

My standard, if you do not understand it, accepts that people are emotional. I expect, or at least anticipate the possibility, of myself being unwilling to go along with the greater good if it hurts personally, just as I expect the same from others. And when that personal influence is in opposition, I expect it to be (or perhaps not, case depending) to be overruled by those not so involved. I can do this for others: others can do it for me.

As has already been addressed, my being ok with it is irrelevant to whether it should happen. I apply to a system which I do not dominate, as should you.

I understand your viewpoint now, sorry about the hypocrisy comment. However I cannot agree with you. In a case where something like your children being kidnapped for experiments, no matter the payoff I would find myself compeled to help you get them back rather than stop you.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I have the willpower and the wisdom to say you have a better grounds to make hard choices for my children than I do, and that I am a compromised party after a point. Most every country which mandates universal education, vaccinations, and even juvenile justice systems accepts that a parent's desires for their children can be and are outweighed by social wants and needs.

All of your examples help your child, killing him to help other peoples children just leaves yours dead.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Alliance has elections. As a representative democracy (of sorts), the democratic legitimacy stems from there.

It does make me curious as to your country of origin: I'm not aware of any major Western nation in which direct referendum determins the leadership of classified, or even non-classified, ministries and agencies. The European Union, for example, is famous for the influence and weight of it's unelected beuracrats.

I am from the U.S. (born in Puerto Rico).

And while for example I don't vote the head of the FBI into office, but if he screws up public outrage can get him fired. Such a situation does not apply to Cerberus.

Modifié par sanadawarrior, 30 juillet 2010 - 07:21 .

[sanadawarrior]

mosor wrote...

sanadawarrior wrote...

I don't, but then again if I were the senator in question I would let my son get drafted and I'm sure many think that would be reprehensible. I agree with the rest of what you said though.

I think you meant wouldn't be reprehensible. Anyway, the point being is while many may applaud putting your son in harms way for the greater good (Vietnam is a very poor example of greater good but it will have to do), many people would secretly wish that they could have the power to spare their own children from that carnage. It's human nature to protect your own. In order of priority it's usually,  immediate family, extended family and friends, clan, country, and species as a whole. This has nothing to do with right or wrong. It's ingrained by competiton and struggle during our evolution.

I meant reprehensible as in "what kind of father would do that." Since as you said, if they where in my shoes they would not do the same.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

The problem with pro-cerberus arguement's is that they try to put out that they are the only ones after the collectors or reapers at the time being and are getting the job done. But Cerberus only really care's about Cerberus and The Illusive Man is mostly doing this so that he can get power later after Reapers are defeated. But anyone in support of this At any cost stuff is bull**** there is always another way of getting things done, paragon's prove that, and will prove it again most likely in Me3

But I think Im being a little selfish at the moment. This Topic started by listing the failures and crimes of Cerberus. Currently the only thing Cerberus has done right is resurrecting Commander Shepard

1. You have no way of knowing TIM's motives. You have convinced yourself he cares more about domination than self-preservation. I do not believe this is true.

2. Paragons being able to get things done is just an example of meta-gaming. Of course Bioware isn't going to write the game so if you destroy the Collector Base the Reapers win, but if you keep it you defeat the reapers. That is not roleplaying. My Shepard doesn't KNOW that he is going to defeat the Reapers (even though I know he will). Therefore, I'm going to give him every opportunity I can to strengthen humanity and the galaxy against the Reapers.

3. Read through the rest of the topic before saying something like "Cerberus has only done one thing right." It's an extremely fallacious argument.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

sanadawarrior wrote...

I meant reprehensible as in "what kind of father would do that." Since as you said, if they where in my shoes they would not do the same.

I'm going to be straight up here and say that you probably give yourself too much credit. No human is half as noble as you claim you are. I don't know though, maybe you are a bastion of purity. I realize I am extremely flawed and a slave to my selfishness, as all humans are.

[sanadawarrior]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

The problem with pro-cerberus arguement's is that they try to put out that they are the only ones after the collectors or reapers at the time being and are getting the job done. But Cerberus only really care's about Cerberus and The Illusive Man is mostly doing this so that he can get power later after Reapers are defeated. But anyone in support of this At any cost stuff is bull**** there is always another way of getting things done, paragon's prove that, and will prove it again most likely in Me3

But I think Im being a little selfish at the moment. This Topic started by listing the failures and crimes of Cerberus. Currently the only thing Cerberus has done right is resurrecting Commander Shepard

1. You have no way of knowing TIM's motives. You have convinced yourself he cares more about domination than self-preservation. I do not believe this is true.

2. Paragons being able to get things done is just an example of meta-gaming. Of course Bioware isn't going to write the game so if you destroy the Collector Base the Reapers win, but if you keep it you defeat the reapers. That is not roleplaying. My Shepard doesn't KNOW that he is going to defeat the Reapers (even though I know he will). Therefore, I'm going to give him every opportunity I can to strengthen humanity and the galaxy against the Reapers.

3. Read through the rest of the topic before saying something like "Cerberus has only done one thing right." It's an extremely fallacious argument.

1) I agree, however the fact that I dont know his motives is what bothers me about trusting him.

2) I agree as well, but I am not so sure the base would help in the hands of cerberus, I realy wish there was another option but there was not.

3) Agree.

[Dean_the_Young]

sanadawarrior wrote...

I understand your viewpoint now, sorry about the hypocrisy comment. However I cannot agree with you. In a case where something like your children being kidnapped for experiments, no matter the payoff I would find myself compeled to help you get them back rather than stop you.

No offense was taken. I'll even say I'm glad you're sure enough in your morals to say what you do.

Of course, the thing is that the delimma proposed is pretty unrealistic, and so are some of the Cerberus modus opperandi. They're devised for drama, not realism, which is a problem when arguing the underlying issues of right vs. wrong. There's no conceivable reason why we have to kidnap a child from a good household to throw him to sharks for some magically conditional reward. The most intensive and destructive medical research these days doesn't even use entire people: it's simply cheaper, easier, and far more effective to do tissue research until you reach a base line. Experimental treatments only get used on people at the end stage, not the beginning.

All of your examples help your child, killing him to help other peoples children just leaves yours dead.

Bad time to mention I support stem cell research and don't favor outlawing abortion, then? (The rest goes to the clumsy nature of the delimma.)

I am from the U.S. (born in Puerto Rico).

And while for example I don't vote the head of the FBI into office, if he screws up public outrage can get him fired. Such a situation does not apply to Cerberus.

No, but nor does it apply to most black ops positions in the US military. You have no say in the leadership of Delta Force, the Navy Seals, or the secret task leaders in the CIA who the government won't admit to. The Black Ops world is one by and large beyond public scrutiny, let alone public accountability. Few people even know Cerberus exists in the first place.

[sanadawarrior]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

sanadawarrior wrote...

I meant reprehensible as in "what kind of father would do that." Since as you said, if they where in my shoes they would not do the same.

I'm going to be straight up here and say that you probably give yourself too much credit. No human is half as noble as you claim you are. I don't know though, maybe you are a bastion of purity. I realize I am extremely flawed and a slave to my selfishness, as all humans are.

Bastion of purity I am not, however In this instance that is what I would do. In fact why would letting my child go to the draft make me either noble or pure? He was called into the service of his country, it is his duty to answer the call, simple as that.

Trust me I am a very flawed individual, I however feel rather strongly about this particular subject.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

sanadawarrior wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

sanadawarrior wrote...

I meant reprehensible as in "what kind of father would do that." Since as you said, if they where in my shoes they would not do the same.

I'm going to be straight up here and say that you probably give yourself too much credit. No human is half as noble as you claim you are. I don't know though, maybe you are a bastion of purity. I realize I am extremely flawed and a slave to my selfishness, as all humans are.

Bastion of purity I am not, however In this instance that is what I would do. In fact why would letting my child go to the draft make me either noble or pure? He was called into the service of his country, it is his duty to answer the call, simple as that.

Trust me I am a very flawed individual, I however feel rather strongly about this particular subject.

Ok. As I said before, I would want my son to go as well because I view military service as honorable and a good experience for my son. I was speaking more generally, but if you were focusing on that one issue than I agree whole-heartedly.

[sanadawarrior]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No offense was taken. I'll even say I'm glad you're sure enough in your morals to say what you do.

Of course, the thing is that the delimma proposed is pretty unrealistic, and so are some of the Cerberus modus opperandi. They're devised for drama, not realism, which is a problem when arguing the underlying issues of right vs. wrong. There's no conceivable reason why we have to kidnap a child from a good household to throw him to sharks for some magically conditional reward. The most intensive and destructive medical research these days doesn't even use entire people: it's simply cheaper, easier, and far more effective to do tissue research until you reach a base line. Experimental treatments only get used on people at the end stage, not the beginning.

I agree with how unrealistic it is, however we don't get to supporta a realistic Cerberus, it's either this almost comic book villain evil (IMO) organization or nothing. So I choose not to support them.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Bad time to mention I support stem cell research and don't favor outlawing abortion, then? (The rest goes to the clumsy nature of the delimma.)

As do I, however Im not sure what that has to do with this? I am not some children first advocate, I just don't believe someone should be deciding the kinds of things Cerberus decides for other people.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

No, but nor does it apply to most black ops positions in the US military. You have no say in the leadership of Delta Force, the Navy Seals, or the secret task leaders in the CIA who the government won't admit to. The Black Ops world is one by and large beyond public scrutiny, let alone public accountability. Few people even know Cerberus exists in the first place.

Point taken. I just never viewed them as some sort of black op working for the alliance government, I thought they where suposed to have broken off from them, after all Navy Seal teams dont lure U.S. Marines to their deaths.

Modifié par sanadawarrior, 30 juillet 2010 - 07:52 .

[BellatrixLugosi]

Im able to tell his actions through his history, the interactions with him and his reactions to Paragon and Renegade play through. Do something Morally and Ethically right, Tim has an issue with it, sorry he doesn't show me positive attributes. And well your um......wrong about disagreeing with my "Shepard resurrection is the only thing they did right" sorry with what we have seen with Cerberus and their actions, Resurrecting Shepard has been the only outright positive outcome but I guess you could stick in the normandy a little bit in there too, but there were not the only backers on it. With what Cerberus does they only seem to outright care about Cerberus.



P.S:I kind of find it funny that I come on these forums to find people like Cerb Op Ashley Williams, Zulu and Smudboy **** about Me2 storyline not being perfect but go out of their way to Defend cerberus.

[Dean_the_Young]

sanadawarrior wrote...
I agree with how unrealistic it is, however we don't get to supporta a realistic Cerberus, it's either this almost comic book villain evil (IMO) organization or nothing. So I choose not to support them.

I take a different path of interpretation, but that's neither here or now I suppose.

As do I, however Im not sure what that has to do with this? I am not some children first advocate, I just don't believe someone should be deciding the kinds of things Cerberus decides for other people.

Depending on which side of the religious/moral debate you have, all abortion/stem cell research is the murder of children, while issues like home schooling and vaccinations are overrulings of a parent's right to raise their child as they think best. You can extend it to a lot of other things in which public/social interests take precedence over parental privalege.

Point taken. I just never viewed them as some sort of black op working for the alliance government, I thought they where suposed to have broken off from them, after all Navy Seal teams dont lure U.S. Marines to their deaths.

Without diving too far down the rabbit hole, I'd be amazed if there hasn't been any government persons who didn't end up dead by conspiracy and coverup in the name of national interests. Probably could find some if you went down deep enough, but for understandable reasons no government likes to remember it happened. (Not even touching JFK/MLK conspiracies.)

Up until shortly before ME1, Cerberus was Alliance. Akuze, Teltin, they were back when Cerberus was under the Alliance. The current relationship is a bit vaguer: we know there are still ties, but how much or how strong is up to debate.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Im able to tell his actions through his history, the interactions with him and his reactions to Paragon and Renegade play through. Do something Morally and Ethically right, Tim has an issue with it, sorry he doesn't show me positive attributes. And well your um......wrong about disagreeing with my "Shepard resurrection is the only thing they did right" sorry with what we have seen with Cerberus and their actions, Resurrecting Shepard has been the only outright positive outcome but I guess you could stick in the normandy a little bit in there too, but there were not the only backers on it. With what Cerberus does they only seem to outright care about Cerberus.

P.S:I kind of find it funny that I come on these forums to find people like Cerb Op Ashley Williams, Zulu and Smudboy **** about Me2 storyline not being perfect but go out of their way to Defend cerberus.

If you can quote me from a time when I railed on ME2's storyline I would love to see it (hint: I haven't). Also, equating paragon action with "Morally and Ethically right" is not true. In fact, it's not even what the righters intended. The writers wanted two different Shepards doing what is best for the galaxy by different means. Also, go read some of my earlier posts in this thread about Cerberus' success/failure ratio and respond to those. I do not feel the need to repost my arguments.

[lovgreno]

Dean_the_Young wrote...The Black Ops world is one by and large beyond public scrutiny, let alone public accountability. Few people even know Cerberus exists in the first place.

Yet many people Shepard meets knows what Cerberus is and strongly dislikes them. Not very efficent security work there if their secrets leak that fast. But it's probably just a miss by the writers and not intentional.

Modifié par lovgreno, 30 juillet 2010 - 08:08 .

[angj57]

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

 And well your um......wrong about disagreeing with my "Shepard resurrection is the only thing they did right" sorry with what we have seen with Cerberus and their actions, Resurrecting Shepard has been the only outright positive outcome but I guess you could stick in the normandy a little bit in there too, but there were not the only backers on it. With what Cerberus does they only seem to outright care about Cerberus.
 

EDI doesn't count as a success? Really? The only AI that we know of in the galaxy that hasn't turned on its makers, who goes on to play an instrumental role in stopping the collectors and datamining them for info on the Reapers and is also built with anti-Reaper algorithims? I hate to keep harping on the same things, but they keep coming up.

Anyway, the fact that a lot of people forget is that the Council, of which the Alliance is now a part (in retrospect maybe a flawed decision) categorically refuses to do anything in the Terminus systems, which is where the Collectors operate, and they always have, even when they knew Saren and the Geth fleet were amassing there to attack. Cerberus really is the only group that could possibly fight the Collectors, unless you think Shepard should have joined the Blue Suns or Eclipse and convinced them to help.

[sanadawarrior]

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Im able to tell his actions through his history, the interactions with him and his reactions to Paragon and Renegade play through. Do something Morally and Ethically right, Tim has an issue with it, sorry he doesn't show me positive attributes. And well your um......wrong about disagreeing with my "Shepard resurrection is the only thing they did right" sorry with what we have seen with Cerberus and their actions, Resurrecting Shepard has been the only outright positive outcome but I guess you could stick in the normandy a little bit in there too, but there were not the only backers on it. With what Cerberus does they only seem to outright care about Cerberus.

P.S:I kind of find it funny that I come on these forums to find people like Cerb Op Ashley Williams, Zulu and Smudboy **** about Me2 storyline not being perfect but go out of their way to Defend cerberus.

Shepard has the option of making the op he is in charge of a failed Cerberus operation. If you go paragon at the end you realize the intention was never to stop the collectors, but to capture reaper tech. The TIM says as much by claiming you are making a habit of wasting his time and money, not exactly how one would feel if the true mission was to stop the collectors.

Even going renegade though they have plenty of successes, the original Normandy as well as her replacement, the resurection of Shepard, EDI, and heck even that thing where they dumped eezo on a colony could be a succes because it did lead to human biotics like Kaidan.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

sanadawarrior wrote...

Shepard has the option of making the op he is in charge of a failed Cerberus operation. If you go paragon at the end you realize the intention was never to stop the collectors, but to capture reaper tech.

This is purely speculation. Could it have been TIM's ultimate goal? Yes. I personally don't think it was. Can we know for sure? No.

[Dean_the_Young]

lovgreno wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...The Black Ops world is one by and large beyond public scrutiny, let alone public accountability. Few people even know Cerberus exists in the first place.

Yet many people Shepard meets knows what Cerberus is and strongly dislikes them. Not very efficent security work there if their actions leak that fast. But it's probably just a miss by the writers and not intentional.

There's also the point that most the people Shepard talks to are very well connected and informed, and would have reason to know. Sort of how world leaders are likely to know world leaders, even though would leaders are so rare.

While Cerberus is getting more well known (multiple indications that TIM is pulling it out of the shadows and to galactic notice, and the various Cerberus News pieces of Cerberus discoveries), it still remains pretty remote except to those directly effected by it. At this point, the biggest exception is the Quarian migrant fleet, an exception to the rule due to it's unique circumstances.

[sanadawarrior]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

sanadawarrior wrote...

Shepard has the option of making the op he is in charge of a failed Cerberus operation. If you go paragon at the end you realize the intention was never to stop the collectors, but to capture reaper tech.

This is purely speculation. Could it have been TIM's ultimate goal? Yes. I personally don't think it was. Can we know for sure? No.

True, however if the goal was to simply stop the collectors why no congratulations? He was rather angry, but I supose I might be reading too much into it.

Modifié par sanadawarrior, 30 juillet 2010 - 08:14 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

sanadawarrior wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

sanadawarrior wrote...

Shepard has the option of making the op he is in charge of a failed Cerberus operation. If you go paragon at the end you realize the intention was never to stop the collectors, but to capture reaper tech.

This is purely speculation. Could it have been TIM's ultimate goal? Yes. I personally don't think it was. Can we know for sure? No.

True, however if the goal was to simply stop the reapers why no congratulations? He was rather angry, but I supose I might be reading too much into it.

No doubt he really wanted the collector base (btw I think he does congratulate you first thing IIRC). He was angry because he saw the potential technological gains that were going to be wasted by paragon Shepard.

[Dean_the_Young]

sanadawarrior wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

sanadawarrior wrote...

Shepard has the option of making the op he is in charge of a failed Cerberus operation. If you go paragon at the end you realize the intention was never to stop the collectors, but to capture reaper tech.

This is purely speculation. Could it have been TIM's ultimate goal? Yes. I personally don't think it was. Can we know for sure? No.

True, however if the goal was to simply stop the collectors why no congratulations? He was rather angry, but I supose I might be reading too much into it.

...I don't think you're reading enough into it. Namely, you're not reading the face of it.

If you destroy the base, you both hurt chances for human dominance (a Cerberus goal) and the chances to actually beat the reapers (a Cerberus goal, and the real force behind the Collectors). The Collectors were only a front for the bigger enemy: as soon as that was determined, why should he be happy and give congratulations when you went and kicked out the means for the bigger two goals?

[sanadawarrior]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

sanadawarrior wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

sanadawarrior wrote...

Shepard has the option of making the op he is in charge of a failed Cerberus operation. If you go paragon at the end you realize the intention was never to stop the collectors, but to capture reaper tech.

This is purely speculation. Could it have been TIM's ultimate goal? Yes. I personally don't think it was. Can we know for sure? No.

True, however if the goal was to simply stop the reapers why no congratulations? He was rather angry, but I supose I might be reading too much into it.

No doubt he really wanted the collector base (btw I think he does congratulate you first thing IIRC). He was angry because he saw the potential technological gains that were going to be wasted by paragon Shepard.

I'll check when I get home as I have no speakers at work, but I'm almost 100% certain the first words out of his mouth are "You are making a habit of costing me time and money Shepard."

[sanadawarrior]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

sanadawarrior wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

sanadawarrior wrote...

Shepard has the option of making the op he is in charge of a failed Cerberus operation. If you go paragon at the end you realize the intention was never to stop the collectors, but to capture reaper tech.

This is purely speculation. Could it have been TIM's ultimate goal? Yes. I personally don't think it was. Can we know for sure? No.

True, however if the goal was to simply stop the collectors why no congratulations? He was rather angry, but I supose I might be reading too much into it.

...I don't think you're reading enough into it. Namely, you're not reading the face of it.

If you destroy the base, you both hurt chances for human dominance (a Cerberus goal) and the chances to actually beat the reapers (a Cerberus goal, and the real force behind the Collectors). The Collectors were only a front for the bigger enemy: as soon as that was determined, why should he be happy and give congratulations when you went and kicked out the means for the bigger two goals?

Also true, but he doesn't mention the reaper threat, instead he specificaly says you are wasting HIS time and money. He then goes on to say that reaper tech would have secured human dominance and that strength for Cerberus is stregth for humanity, he never mentions the reapers until you say you are going after them next.

Modifié par sanadawarrior, 30 juillet 2010 - 08:20 .