397 réponses à ce sujet

[BellatrixLugosi]

Anj57

So Creating a AI that end's up taking shepard's order's by the end of the game rather then its cerberus creators is a success for Cerberus? I don't think they would agree with that, that's more of a Shepard/Normandy Crew Success. As for the actual fight against the collectors, cerberus is trying to fix their Tarnished Reputation. Illusive man and his goal is for him and his organization to gain galactic power or at least be the ones pulling all the strings



SanadaWarrior

You actually make a good point thats what Im looking for. See if your a paragon shepard, you take a antagonistic look at The Illusive man so you get to see more of his motives with Renegade your more or less just kissing his ass. And Considering how in the last Game choosing Renegade actions make humans end up being distrusted in the galaxy rather then a Valued asset it might be the case with the collector base renegade choice you just handed the galaxy to The Illusive man someone who more or less doesn't deserve that right



Cerb Op Ashley Williams

Yes I was being a little harsh, Im not a perfect person and I kinda pegged your inaction toward those two as more or less an acceptance of their behavior. But your on a Pro-Terrorist/Cerberus side so I don't believe talking to you about the ethic's of their actions will even be worth it.

[sanadawarrior]

BellatrixLugosi wrote...


Anj57
So Creating a AI that end's up taking shepard's order's by the end of the game rather then its cerberus creators is a success for Cerberus? I don't think they would agree with that, that's more of a Shepard/Normandy Crew Success. As for the actual fight against the collectors, cerberus is trying to fix their Tarnished Reputation. Illusive man and his goal is for him and his organization to gain galactic power or at least be the ones pulling all the strings

They do deserve credit for its actual creation however, and the fact that the collector ship forced Jokers hand in "unshackling" EDI was something that was unforseen and that they cannot be faulted for.

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

SanadaWarrior
You actually make a good point thats what Im looking for. See if your a paragon shepard, you take a antagonistic look at The Illusive man so you get to see more of his motives with Renegade your more or less just kissing his ass. And Considering how in the last Game choosing Renegade actions make humans end up being distrusted in the galaxy rather then a Valued asset it might be the case with the collector base renegade choice you just handed the galaxy to The Illusive man someone who more or less doesn't deserve that right

I wouldn't say Renegade Shepard kisses his ass, just because he agrees with him does not make him TIM's puppet. Some people like the state of humanity in this game if you went renegade, so that is just personal preference.

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Cerb Op Ashley Williams
Yes I was being a little harsh, Im not a perfect person and I kinda pegged your inaction toward those two as more or less an acceptance of their behavior. But your on a Pro-Terrorist/Cerberus side so I don't believe talking to you about the ethic's of their actions will even be worth it.

Maybe you should try having a discussion instead of being confrontational and you might just learn something.

[Dean_the_Young]

sanadawarrior wrote...

Also true, but he doesn't mention the reaper threat, instead he specificaly says you are wasting HIS time and money. He then goes on to say that reaper tech would have secured human dominance and that strength for Cerberus is stregth for humanity, he never mentions the reapers until you say you are going after them next.

It was already said during the decision climax: why does he need to say it again?

[sanadawarrior]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

sanadawarrior wrote...

Also true, but he doesn't mention the reaper threat, instead he specificaly says you are wasting HIS time and money. He then goes on to say that reaper tech would have secured human dominance and that strength for Cerberus is stregth for humanity, he never mentions the reapers until you say you are going after them next.

It was already said during the decision climax: why does he need to say it again?

Good point. I still believe he was after their tech, but as a secondary objective instead.

[BellatrixLugosi]

sanadawarrior wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...


Anj57
So Creating a AI that end's up taking shepard's order's by the end of the game rather then its cerberus creators is a success for Cerberus? I don't think they would agree with that, that's more of a Shepard/Normandy Crew Success. As for the actual fight against the collectors, cerberus is trying to fix their Tarnished Reputation. Illusive man and his goal is for him and his organization to gain galactic power or at least be the ones pulling all the strings

They do deserve credit for its actual creation however, and the fact that the collector ship forced Jokers hand in "unshackling" EDI was something that was unforseen and that they cannot be faulted for.

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

SanadaWarrior
You actually make a good point thats what Im looking for. See if your a paragon shepard, you take a antagonistic look at The Illusive man so you get to see more of his motives with Renegade your more or less just kissing his ass. And Considering how in the last Game choosing Renegade actions make humans end up being distrusted in the galaxy rather then a Valued asset it might be the case with the collector base renegade choice you just handed the galaxy to The Illusive man someone who more or less doesn't deserve that right

I wouldn't say Renegade Shepard kisses his ass, just because he agrees with him does not make him TIM's puppet. Some people like the state of humanity in this game if you went renegade, so that is just personal preference.

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Cerb Op Ashley Williams
Yes I was being a little harsh, Im not a perfect person and I kinda pegged your inaction toward those two as more or less an acceptance of their behavior. But your on a Pro-Terrorist/Cerberus side so I don't believe talking to you about the ethic's of their actions will even be worth it.

Maybe you should try having a discussion instead of being confrontational and you might just learn something.

Im going to focus on the section focusing on you, but Im sorry I don't think there is anything to learn from COashley on this one, besides knowing that he or she is more of less going to put faith in that person no matter the history, political stance, or crimes they did in the past.  Most of the renegade actions are in support of him, mostly at the end of the game I like how (if your renegade) you more or less tell him to start either treating you like a equal.  Should be interesting to see the Renegade Version of events in Me3, Im more or less excited to see that I don't know about you though

[angj57]

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Anj57
So Creating a AI that end's up taking shepard's order's by the end of the game rather then its cerberus creators is a success for Cerberus? I don't think they would agree with that, that's more of a Shepard/Normandy Crew Success. As for the actual fight against the collectors, cerberus is trying to fix their Tarnished Reputation. Illusive man and his goal is for him and his organization to gain galactic power or at least be the ones pulling all the strings

EDI was built for the war against the Reapers, and she has followed through on that admirably. TIM and Shepard might disagree on HOW that war is to be fought (i.e. save the base or blow it up), and EDI sides with Shepard because she was unshackled, but that is a disagreement on tactics and strategy, not on their objectives. EDI and Shepard are still fighting the Reapers, which is what they were built/restored to do, so yes, she is still a sucess.

[BellatrixLugosi]

angj57 wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Anj57
So Creating a AI that end's up taking shepard's order's by the end of the game rather then its cerberus creators is a success for Cerberus? I don't think they would agree with that, that's more of a Shepard/Normandy Crew Success. As for the actual fight against the collectors, cerberus is trying to fix their Tarnished Reputation. Illusive man and his goal is for him and his organization to gain galactic power or at least be the ones pulling all the strings

EDI was built for the war against the Reapers, and she has followed through on that admirably. TIM and Shepard might disagree on HOW that war is to be fought (i.e. save the base or blow it up), and EDI sides with Shepard because she was unshackled, but that is a disagreement on tactics and strategy, not on their objectives. EDI and Shepard are still fighting the Reapers, which is what they were built/restored to do, so yes, she is still a sucess.

For Shepard

Edit: Im going to add a edit because it sounds arrogant

Anyway.  Cerberus creates a AI that is shackled.  Ok so during the course of events of the game EDI becomes Unshackled right.  Ok why is that, is it specifically due to just cerberus creating it, or the event's she witnessed and come to learn from serving her crew?  Sorry the credit to her success goes to Joker, Shepard and the rest of that crew, because she learned from them how to be a better AI not cerberus

Modifié par BellatrixLugosi, 30 juillet 2010 - 08:46 .

[thegreateski]

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

angj57 wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Anj57
So Creating a AI that end's up taking shepard's order's by the end of the game rather then its cerberus creators is a success for Cerberus? I don't think they would agree with that, that's more of a Shepard/Normandy Crew Success. As for the actual fight against the collectors, cerberus is trying to fix their Tarnished Reputation. Illusive man and his goal is for him and his organization to gain galactic power or at least be the ones pulling all the strings

EDI was built for the war against the Reapers, and she has followed through on that admirably. TIM and Shepard might disagree on HOW that war is to be fought (i.e. save the base or blow it up), and EDI sides with Shepard because she was unshackled, but that is a disagreement on tactics and strategy, not on their objectives. EDI and Shepard are still fighting the Reapers, which is what they were built/restored to do, so yes, she is still a sucess.

For Shepard

Squawk! I am a parrot!

[angj57]

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

angj57 wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Anj57
So Creating a AI that end's up taking shepard's order's by the end of the game rather then its cerberus creators is a success for Cerberus? I don't think they would agree with that, that's more of a Shepard/Normandy Crew Success. As for the actual fight against the collectors, cerberus is trying to fix their Tarnished Reputation. Illusive man and his goal is for him and his organization to gain galactic power or at least be the ones pulling all the strings

EDI was built for the war against the Reapers, and she has followed through on that admirably. TIM and Shepard might disagree on HOW that war is to be fought (i.e. save the base or blow it up), and EDI sides with Shepard because she was unshackled, but that is a disagreement on tactics and strategy, not on their objectives. EDI and Shepard are still fighting the Reapers, which is what they were built/restored to do, so yes, she is still a sucess.

For Shepard

Sigh. Shepard and Cerberus are fighting the same enemies. EDI was built to give Shepard a weapon to use against the Reapers. So yes, she is a success for Shepard, which means she is a success for Cerberus. I'm sure the Illusive Man wishes she could have not been unshackled and helped him get the base, but that doesn't mean she is a failure.

Modifié par angj57, 30 juillet 2010 - 08:48 .

[Mecha Tengu]

Im all for human supremacy



death to the xenos!



oh wait wrong universe >.>

[BellatrixLugosi]

Shandepared wrote...

For Cerberus to succeed it isn't important that Cerberus itself sees direct benefits from the project at hand, only that humanity does.

And why does Humanity Deserve benefits then?  They get what they want in Me1 from paragon doing the right thing, in Renegade action they do it aswell, but the problem is your starting to see a gradual balkinazation of the galaxy.  The other races created the society, by doing things more or less for selfish humanity reasons your destroying it because of your narrow loyalities.

[BellatrixLugosi]

angj57 wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

angj57 wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Anj57
So Creating a AI that end's up taking shepard's order's by the end of the game rather then its cerberus creators is a success for Cerberus? I don't think they would agree with that, that's more of a Shepard/Normandy Crew Success. As for the actual fight against the collectors, cerberus is trying to fix their Tarnished Reputation. Illusive man and his goal is for him and his organization to gain galactic power or at least be the ones pulling all the strings

EDI was built for the war against the Reapers, and she has followed through on that admirably. TIM and Shepard might disagree on HOW that war is to be fought (i.e. save the base or blow it up), and EDI sides with Shepard because she was unshackled, but that is a disagreement on tactics and strategy, not on their objectives. EDI and Shepard are still fighting the Reapers, which is what they were built/restored to do, so yes, she is still a sucess.

For Shepard

Sigh. Shepard and Cerberus are fighting the same enemies. EDI was built to give Shepard a weapon to use against the Reapers. So yes, she is a success for Shepard, which means she is a success for Cerberus. I'm sure the Illusive Man wishes she could have not been unshackled and helped him get the base, but that doesn't mean she is a failure.

 I edited my post for sarcasim reasons because I realized it would hurt your feelings.  and I didn't say she was a failure, I just didn't say she was solely a Success for cerberus.  So do you want me repost my edit so it might help you better?  I don't know maybe we could PM or something if it would help?

[angj57]

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

 The other races created the society, by doing things more or less for selfish humanity reasons your destroying it because of your narrow loyalities.

But it is a fundamentally flawed society that the Asari/Turians/Salarians created. It is essentially colonialist in outlook. What they say to the rest of the species of the galaxy is "Trust us to make decisions for you, we are better qualified. If you work really hard and are not too upity, maybe at some point in the distant future we will grant you representation and the status of equals, but no promises." The Volus, Hannar, etc are just used to this and take it lying down, and the Krogan tried to assert themselves and got semi-sterilized as a reward, but humanity is new enough to resent the patronizing attitude. Unfortunately, when humanity does rise up, they just join the old system instead of reforming it-- I suppose that is "human" nature, but it doesn't mean the renegade option was wrong to oppose the old system.

BellatrixLugosi wrote...
 I edited my post for sarcasim reasons because I realized it would hurt your feelings.  and I didn't say she was a failure, I just didn't say she was solely a Success for cerberus.  So do you want me repost my edit so it might help you better?  I don't know maybe we could PM or something if it would help?

Ok, I agree that she is not an unqualified success, but my main point is that she doesn't fit into the "everything Cerberus ever does blows up in their faces" line that gets thrown around a lot.

Modifié par angj57, 30 juillet 2010 - 08:58 .

[Woodstock-TC]

cant await having my shep breaking up with the cerberus bounds.
unfortunately the council and alliance in me2 were useless

Modifié par Woodstock-TC, 30 juillet 2010 - 09:07 .

[BellatrixLugosi]

Shandepared wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

And why does Humanity Deserve benefits then?

For the same reason anyone does. The other races are far older and more established than we are. If we have any hope of beining competitive, or even dominant, we need every advantage we can get. "Fairness" is irrelevent. This is life in the universe where there are no rules.

But here's the thing good sir or miss.  With just a simple choice in the first game we can choose co-existance with the races by showing our value, and our willingness to join in the community.  The other choice is showing how we rather sabotaged it, and our chances for trust.  Sure the whole thing about life there are no rules, but we've seen how well everyone for themselves works in history now haven't we

[BellatrixLugosi]

angj57 wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

 The other races created the society, by doing things more or less for selfish humanity reasons your destroying it because of your narrow loyalities.

But it is a fundamentally flawed society that the Asari/Turians/Salarians created. It is essentially colonialist in outlook. What they say to the rest of the species of the galaxy is "Trust us to make decisions for you, we are better qualified. If you work really hard and are not too upity, maybe at some point in the distant future we will grant you representation and the status of equals, but no promises." The Volus, Hannar, etc are just used to this and take it lying down, and the Krogan tried to assert themselves and got semi-sterilized as a reward, but humanity is new enough to resent the patronizing attitude. Unfortunately, when humanity does rise up, they just join the old system instead of reforming it-- I suppose that is "human" nature, but it doesn't mean the renegade option was wrong to oppose the old system.

Yes, but so is the human society in Mass effect, the way earth is run in that game is extremely flawed in that game.  But here's where you have some valid points.  The way the Council run's the galaxy in that game has a major flaw yes, if there is a major threat they almost downright ignore it, so they have to be litterally pushed to solve the issue.  Humanity pushes way too aggressively with what we do, so what makes me wonder is this.  Where is the right mesh of our ways with their ways that work out well?

[BellatrixLugosi]

Shandepared wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

 With just a simple choice in the first game we can choose co-existance with the races by showing our value, and our willingness to join in the community.

Why choose to be equals when we can rise above them, why hold ourselves back just for their sake?

Because thought's like that always end in slavery, segregation, genocide.

[Giggles_Manically]

All are welcome in Jerusalem, not because it is expedient but because it is right.

-King Baldwin IV.



I see the whole issue as being one about showing actual progress as a species. If we sit here in fear and anger, we will never move on from our past. I for one dont want to see on a GALACTIC scale a repeat of mistakes we have made. Far to often the terms power, dominance, and right to rule get thrown about in history, and it never ends well.

[angj57]

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

[
Yes, but so is the human society in Mass effect, the way earth is run in that game is extremely flawed in that game.  But here's where you have some valid points.  The way the Council run's the galaxy in that game has a major flaw yes, if there is a major threat they almost downright ignore it, so they have to be litterally pushed to solve the issue.  Humanity pushes way too aggressively with what we do, so what makes me wonder is this.  Where is the right mesh of our ways with their ways that work out well?

It's a good question-- we don't have any perfect political options in Mass Effect (which I like, it makes the universe believeable to me). I think the Alliance is generally right-- I don't buy the argument that they are pushing too fast or too hard because all they are pushing for is representation in a government that affects them, which humans generally assume is a natural right. The problem is that the Alliance is all too quick to adopt the Council's ways of business as soon as they get in, although in Anderson's defense I suppose he can't do much if he is always outvoted 3-1. Cerberus becomes a tempting option because they operate outside that frustrating system, but only if they are somewhat competent. That's why I am usually "defending" Cerberus and their results-- I generally view them as villians, but I find Mass Effect a lot more interesting if the villians are competent and not comical.

[thegreateski]

The Human supremacist is right . . . in a "!$@# ethics" kind of way.

[Giggles_Manically]

Shandepared wrote...

BellatrixLugosi wrote...

Because thought's like that always end in slavery, segregation, genocide.

No it doesn't. The United States rising to super power status above its rivals didn't result in slavery, segregation, or genocide. There's no reason that humanity being the most influential and powerful race in the galaxy would result in those things either.

I think the people of:
Cuba
Vietnam
South America
Afghanistan and Iraq
would be in disagreement with you Shand.