109 réponses à ce sujet

[stevej713]

Valente11 wrote...
-snip-
I've never seen a community try so hard not to like something.

I have.  It's becoming a recurring theme, unfortunately.

I agree with you, though.  BioWare has never said that the character created in Dragon Age will be playable in sequels.  In fact, I got the exact opposite impression when one of the developers said they didn't want Dragon Age to be a trilogy, but rather a large, continuous world with different stories.

[andar91]

They are releasing more DLC for Origins that uses your Warden (they recently released the trailer for the Golems of something-with-an-a).



I don't think the Warden would have much more to do for the most part other than organize the Grey Wardens and fight some random darkspawn before the calling comes for him/her.

[Sappy69]

As was mentioned earlier in this thread, the power level (represented by character level) of the Warden is not really an issue as far as determining how to use him/her in future games.  Your character level merely represents a game mechanic.  Your Warden may have finished Awakening at Level 35, but that doesn't mean an imported Warden in a new game needs to be Level 35 again.  Look at D&D...you're considered super-powerful at Lvl 20, but in WoW you're considered a newbie at Lvl 20.  Mass Effect did the same thing from ME1 to ME2...ME1 had 60 levels, ME2 had 30 levels.

If Bioware wants to make a new game (and not DLC or expansion) with the Warden in it, they can simply say "ok, you start at Lvl 1, but if you import a character you'll start at Lvl 5" or some other arbitrary number, without resorting to any "memory-loss", "died and came back to life" or any other such lame excuse.

[Iscaredeath]

I get the feeling that when Dragon Age 3 is announced people will be mad that you won't be able to play Hawke. It's obvious to me that with each new land we get to explore in Thedas we will get a new character. Which I like that idea rather than running around as the warden through all of Thedas making the character level 200 by the time you've explored everything. I've only played Origins and Awakening and I'm bored with the warden. Even on the hardest level nothing is challenging anymore. So I look forward to new character and new challenges.

[Vaeliorin]

Sappy69 wrote...
If Bioware wants to make a new game (and not DLC or expansion) with the Warden in it, they can simply say "ok, you start at Lvl 1, but if you import a character you'll start at Lvl 5" or some other arbitrary number, without resorting to any "memory-loss", "died and came back to life" or any other such lame excuse.

Except of course for the fact that your Warden would come back missing a good 20 some skills...which would make no sense within the setting (and though I'm not as adamant about setting coherence as Sylvius, even I have my limits.)

[SirOccam]

I can see the point about the character being too overpowered, but honestly, it doesn't always have to be about beating a bigger, badder boss. There could still be games/expansions/DLC where the focus is more on story.

But I do think it was inevitable that we start with a new character eventually. Not only because of the Warden's level or gear or stats, but also look at the enormous variety of abilities available, both activated and sustained, especially by the end of Awakening. It's like inflation...we get so much of it that it devalues each individual one. It's especially bad on the consoles, where you're limited to 6 quick-fire ability slots.

I hope this time around they go for quality over quantity, giving upgrades to existing abilities more often than entirely new abilities.

[Orchomene]

It was almost all decided in DAO story arc. If you look at BG/BG2, you end up at the end of BG with a character being far from powerful.
Then, it means that the story should avoid being epic in the first game. A trilogy could be :

• You are put in an unknown situation and you try to find the whereabouts, escape from the difficult situation, understand what is going on. At the end of the game, you have a good idea of what is going on and plan your actions. Level (using DAO lvl system) between 1 and 8.
• You decide to act instead of reacting. You take the offensive solving the issue. At the end of the game, youy undercover that you were wrong from the begining, the threat you faced was linked with the one you have attacked, but they (the one you attack) are also victims of the "main" threat. Level between 8 and 15.
• Now you know what is the threat and have allies. But this threat can't be solved face to face, you need some elements/objects/people to weaken your enemy. You go on a journey to obtain this missing element and in the end, solve the issue. Level between 15 and 25.

It's just an example of what can be done in sequels versus what is done in DAO where you are facing what is presented as "the main threat of the age" in the first game. In the following game, you can not again face "the main threat of the age, the other one being only the second main threat of the age". It would feel a bit strange.

Modifié par Orchomene, 30 juillet 2010 - 11:47 .

[Vandrayke]

meh I don't get why everyone wants to keep their warden and whatnot... I feel like I already experienced the "warden" story, so now I'm done with it and ready for something different.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Novadove wrote...

now, why would we want to play hawke? wat's the notion of doing it? just so we can rebuild another uber invincible character?

I am not sure if I want another game around the warden. So, I welcome that. But I also am aware that it is a matter of economics. It is just cheaper to create a new game with a player character without a past. ME2's solutions didn't work out, did they? The changed dialogue lines, e-mails to the Normandy and cameos were all intended to hide the linearity of the game. A new character doesn't need to take its personal history of the previous game into account. If you listen to the podcast then you'll notice that the DA player character should shape the world. I think that they decided upon doing that because it might be a doable cost effective alternative as there are less personal history details. It needs some extra story lines, though. I doubt BioWare will be able to completely abandon their linear story telling. They might be able to add more stories and present them only in certain situations which the player created. I.e. one outcome of a story leads to another story. That way they can keep little linear stories that lead to alternate endings. The impact of your decisions would be more significant.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 30 juillet 2010 - 12:00 .

[Sappy69]

Vaeliorin wrote...

Sappy69 wrote...
If Bioware wants to make a new game (and not DLC or expansion) with the Warden in it, they can simply say "ok, you start at Lvl 1, but if you import a character you'll start at Lvl 5" or some other arbitrary number, without resorting to any "memory-loss", "died and came back to life" or any other such lame excuse.

Except of course for the fact that your Warden would come back missing a good 20 some skills...which would make no sense within the setting (and though I'm not as adamant about setting coherence as Sylvius, even I have my limits.)

Perhaps I should have clarified my post.  If they go with a new and/or refined system in a new DA game, it won't matter that you're missing 20-odd skills.  Look at some of the developer comments for DA2 about spells - they realized that they'd rather go with "depth" than "breadth", so instead of giving you a billion spells to choose from (only a few of which you'd actually use), they'd prefer to go into more detail with each spell line.  So you can specialize into being a mage good with fire spells, for example, unlike DA:O where all it took was 4 spells (and a measly 4 levels) to master every fire spell.  Remember, all these character levels, stats, attributes, talents, etc. are all just game mechanics.  Who's to say a Lvl 5 character won't be considered "experienced" in a new game?  The numbers are just arbitrary, the talents are just arbitrary.  Why would you care if you're missing 20-odd skills if, hypothetically, they combined Shield Cover, Shield Defense, and Shield Wall into one talent?  If they're going to change up the game system (which is likely with each installment of DA), I don't think "power inflation" will be as big a deal as people make it out to be...as long as they don't have you fighting dragons every day before breakfast, of course.

[Mr.Cousland_]

Novadove wrote...

now, why would we want to play hawke? wat's the notion of doing it? just so we can rebuild another uber invincible character?

Isnt that one of the key elements to Rpg's?

[AlexXIV]

Mr.Cousland wrote...

Novadove wrote...

now, why would we want to play hawke? wat's the notion of doing it? just so we can rebuild another uber invincible character?

Isnt that one of the key elements to Rpg's?

It has become, indeed. Sad though, isn't it?

[angj57]

The way I see it, when a new game starts a character's level should just be lowered back down to a reasonable level. His decisions remain from the first game, but the godly instakill-everything-in-the-room should be reset. I've never enjoyed the demigod rpg sequels like ToB or Awakenings when, for instance, bandits are more powerful than the archdemon was just to keep things competitive.

The problem is that everyone complains when their uber-powers from the last game get taken away, even if they are taken away for the sake of gameplay, so developers really don't have a lot of choice other than doing new characters.

[langelog]

AntiChri5 wrote...

But playing as the Warden.......what would we DO?

We killed the frikken Archdemon!

Only four people in the history of Thedas have pulled that off, and never so quickly and with so little damage.

Seriously, what would we do? Have another Blight? No thanks.

Every story comes to a point where its time to move on.

Aye it's true, badasses can only do so much awesome in one lifetime.

[Vaeliorin]

Sappy69 wrote...

Vaeliorin wrote...

Sappy69 wrote...
If Bioware wants to make a new game (and not DLC or expansion) with the Warden in it, they can simply say "ok, you start at Lvl 1, but if you import a character you'll start at Lvl 5" or some other arbitrary number, without resorting to any "memory-loss", "died and came back to life" or any other such lame excuse.

Except of course for the fact that your Warden would come back missing a good 20 some skills...which would make no sense within the setting (and though I'm not as adamant about setting coherence as Sylvius, even I have my limits.)

Perhaps I should have clarified my post.  If they go with a new and/or refined system in a new DA game, it won't matter that you're missing 20-odd skills.  Look at some of the developer comments for DA2 about spells - they realized that they'd rather go with "depth" than "breadth", so instead of giving you a billion spells to choose from (only a few of which you'd actually use), they'd prefer to go into more detail with each spell line.  So you can specialize into being a mage good with fire spells, for example, unlike DA:O where all it took was 4 spells (and a measly 4 levels) to master every fire spell.  Remember, all these character levels, stats, attributes, talents, etc. are all just game mechanics.  Who's to say a Lvl 5 character won't be considered "experienced" in a new game?  The numbers are just arbitrary, the talents are just arbitrary.  Why would you care if you're missing 20-odd skills if, hypothetically, they combined Shield Cover, Shield Defense, and Shield Wall into one talent?  If they're going to change up the game system (which is likely with each installment of DA), I don't think "power inflation" will be as big a deal as people make it out to be...as long as they don't have you fighting dragons every day before breakfast, of course.

Let me put it this way.  My 2-handed warrior (which happens to be my favorite skillset in DA) had somewhere around 15 active skills (not sustains) at the end of DA, most of which did different things (I'm still not entirely certain what exactly the difference between Mighty Blow and Critical Strike was.)  If he suddenly drops to level 5, he's going to suddenly be unable to do things he could do before (and I don't really think they can throw out a lot of the 2-handed active talents without seriously hurting the 2-handed playstyle), and he's likely going to be missing some key defining abilities (I don't think they'd let you take 2-handed Sweep by level 5, for example.)

My problem would be that my character is suddenly less able than he was before, without any explanation.  Things that he used to do regularly, he can no longer do for some mysterious reason.  That would bother me.

[angj57]

Vaeliorin wrote...

Let me put it this way.  My 2-handed warrior (which happens to be my favorite skillset in DA) had somewhere around 15 active skills (not sustains) at the end of DA, most of which did different things (I'm still not entirely certain what exactly the difference between Mighty Blow and Critical Strike was.)  If he suddenly drops to level 5, he's going to suddenly be unable to do things he could do before (and I don't really think they can throw out a lot of the 2-handed active talents without seriously hurting the 2-handed playstyle), and he's likely going to be missing some key defining abilities (I don't think they'd let you take 2-handed Sweep by level 5, for example.)

My problem would be that my character is suddenly less able than he was before, without any explanation.  Things that he used to do regularly, he can no longer do for some mysterious reason.  That would bother me.

And this is why we can't have sequels with our old characters. I'm not bashing you for feeling the way you do, but I wish people didn't feel that way. When I think about my characters I think of them based on a) they are badass and good at killing darkspawn and what decisions they made throughout the game. I really don't care whether they picked, for example, critical strike or mighty blow. If they took those skills away and I were back at say level 6 at the begining of the new game, I would be fine as long as long as the darkspawn that I used to kill were back to level 3, because if the game is balanced right a level 6 character ought to be able to kill level 3 characters at the same rate that level 20s can kill level 10s.

It's not a perfect solution and requires you to overlook a few things, but I like it better than never having a true sequel or having every sequel game start with "oops, something happened to you and you wake up without your memories or skills".

[nikki191]

what can defeat an invincible warden.. thats easy for me it was selecting a character voice.. "do you want a ladder to get off my back" ta da the voice killed my character quicker than 10 archdemons could

[Vaeliorin]

angj57 wrote...

Vaeliorin wrote...
Let me put it this way.  My 2-handed warrior (which happens to be my favorite skillset in DA) had somewhere around 15 active skills (not sustains) at the end of DA, most of which did different things (I'm still not entirely certain what exactly the difference between Mighty Blow and Critical Strike was.)  If he suddenly drops to level 5, he's going to suddenly be unable to do things he could do before (and I don't really think they can throw out a lot of the 2-handed active talents without seriously hurting the 2-handed playstyle), and he's likely going to be missing some key defining abilities (I don't think they'd let you take 2-handed Sweep by level 5, for example.)

My problem would be that my character is suddenly less able than he was before, without any explanation.  Things that he used to do regularly, he can no longer do for some mysterious reason.  That would bother me.

And this is why we can't have sequels with our old characters.

No it's not.  The reason we can't have sequels with our old characters is because the devs always seem to need to ramp up your character from nothing to near godhood during the course of a game.  BG->BG2 worked fine, because you only got to level 8-10 in BG (assuming you had ToTSC.)

The solution is simply to have a less steep power curve in each game.  There's a reason that PnP campaigns can last for years.  You don't get 15 or 20 levels in a single story arc in a PnP game.  Once you're past the very early levels, you might gain 2-3, possibly a few more if it's a massive story arc.

[thesuperdarkone]

 Hopefully the new dlc will help explain what happened to our wardens. If Awakening's ending is not explained and the Warden doesn't get closure: 

To Bioware if the Warden never gets closure:

[Sappy69]

Vaeliorin wrote...

Let me put it this way.  My 2-handed warrior (which happens to be my favorite skillset in DA) had somewhere around 15 active skills (not sustains) at the end of DA, most of which did different things (I'm still not entirely certain what exactly the difference between Mighty Blow and Critical Strike was.)  If he suddenly drops to level 5, he's going to suddenly be unable to do things he could do before (and I don't really think they can throw out a lot of the 2-handed active talents without seriously hurting the 2-handed playstyle), and he's likely going to be missing some key defining abilities (I don't think they'd let you take 2-handed Sweep by level 5, for example.)

My problem would be that my character is suddenly less able than he was before, without any explanation.  Things that he used to do regularly, he can no longer do for some mysterious reason.  That would bother me.

I totally understand your point, I guess we'll just have to agree that we share different viewpoints on this.  I just see the whole game system/levels/abilities, etc. as an abstraction.  You might consider Mighty Blow and Critical Strike as key abilities for your 2H Warden...to me, they're just an in-game way of saying "your character swung his sword really hard".   If my character was missing an ability I was used to having in a previous game, I'd just shrug.  For example, why do I care if I have a specific ability called Critical Strike or not?  Same reason I don't really care that in this game, my S&S warrior can't pull off basic moves like slicing a guy in the leg when he's running by me to get to my mage, or why can't I pin him to the wall with my shield?

If you think about it, it's all an abstraction anyways, no matter which game you're playing.  Look at various sequences in DA:O...Bioware has intentionally juggled the difficulty of various monsters (not related to level scaling) in order to create an impression on the player.  Ever notice that during the Archdemon fight, you can one-shot all the darkspawn there?  No, your character didn't get so high-level that you can one-shot them even though in the fights before you couldn't.  They do it there to make your character seem more badass (your hero slicing through waves of mooks, etc.) and also because the real focus is the archdemon.  The darkspawn are there for flavor and background, and you one-shotting them is an abstraction (or rather, their hitpoints are the abstraction).

Another example: look at Mass Effect.  How do you explain the fact that you're a Lvl1 noob at the start of the game with no weapon skills whatsoever?  Shepard is being considered for Spectre status...if you can even get to that point, you're clearly one of the baddest mofo's in the galaxy.  Shepard already has a lengthy military history and experience prior to the start of the game, yet your character sheet reads "Experience = 0".  How is Shepard being considered for Spectre status if he/she can't reliably hit a thug from 10 feet away with an assault rifle going full-burst?  Hell, at Lvl 1 I think Stevie Wonder has even odds to hit that thug compared to Shepard.

In conclusion: it's all just an abstraction.  What's important are the story choices.  If they decide to make a new game and allowed me to import my Warden from DA:O (oh would that make my day), and told me my character is now Lvl 1, or Lvl 5, or Lvl 10, or whatever, I wouldn't bat an eyebrow.  I mean, come on, you should be used to it by now.  I'm sure there are many Wardens out there who took down a Pride Demon at Lvl 9, but got owned by random Denerim thugs at Lvl 12.  It's just how RPG's go.

[Demx]

AntiChri5 wrote...

But playing as the Warden.......what would we DO?

We killed the frikken Archdemon!

Only four people in the history of Thedas have pulled that off, and never so quickly and with so little damage.

Seriously, what would we do? Have another Blight? No thanks.

Every story comes to a point where its time to move on.

What irks me is that this achievement is a footnote compared to the mighty Hawke.

[angj57]

Vaeliorin wrote...

No it's not.  The reason we can't have sequels with our old characters is because the devs always seem to need to ramp up your character from nothing to near godhood during the course of a game.  BG->BG2 worked fine, because you only got to level 8-10 in BG (assuming you had ToTSC.)

The solution is simply to have a less steep power curve in each game.  There's a reason that PnP campaigns can last for years.  You don't get 15 or 20 levels in a single story arc in a PnP game.  Once you're past the very early levels, you might gain 2-3, possibly a few more if it's a massive story arc.

You're right, and I fully support going back to that older style, but I don't think it's going to happen. They are probably afraid that people would complain about leveling up too slowly. Of course even Baldur's Gate hit the wall after BG2-- there was certainly story potential for a whole new game instead of just an expansion, but even in Throne of Bhaal we ended up with the old "here are your level 30 god powers (admitedly they fit that game better than most) and by the way the bandits you will meet on the side of the road could wipe the floor with the toughest bad guys from the first game."

The guy who posted above me summed up my view perfectly. Something like Mighty Blow to me is just an abstraction for "you are good at killing guys with your sword". As long as I remain good at using my sword, I don't care if I don't have that specific skill anymore. Mass Effect handled it reasonably well as far as I am concerned-- in the second game you were technically reset to level 1, but a lot of the things that you were leveling up in the first game like weapon proficiencies were given to you by default in the second game, and, most importantly, you didn't feel like a noob who couldn't kill anything at level 1 in the second game because the enemies were appropriately balanced.

Modifié par angj57, 31 juillet 2010 - 07:58 .

[Behindyounow]

Siradix wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

But playing as the Warden.......what would we DO?

We killed the frikken Archdemon!

Only four people in the history of Thedas have pulled that off, and never so quickly and with so little damage.

Seriously, what would we do? Have another Blight? No thanks.

Every story comes to a point where its time to move on.

What irks me is that this achievement is a footnote compared to the mighty Hawke.

The Archdemon was a push over. Killing it was in no way an achievement.

Modifié par Behindyounow, 31 juillet 2010 - 07:09 .

[Vaeliorin]

Sappy69 wrote...

Vaeliorin wrote...

Let me put it this way.  My 2-handed warrior (which happens to be my favorite skillset in DA) had somewhere around 15 active skills (not sustains) at the end of DA, most of which did different things (I'm still not entirely certain what exactly the difference between Mighty Blow and Critical Strike was.)  If he suddenly drops to level 5, he's going to suddenly be unable to do things he could do before (and I don't really think they can throw out a lot of the 2-handed active talents without seriously hurting the 2-handed playstyle), and he's likely going to be missing some key defining abilities (I don't think they'd let you take 2-handed Sweep by level 5, for example.)

My problem would be that my character is suddenly less able than he was before, without any explanation.  Things that he used to do regularly, he can no longer do for some mysterious reason.  That would bother me.

I totally understand your point, I guess we'll just have to agree that we share different viewpoints on this.  I just see the whole game system/levels/abilities, etc. as an abstraction.  You might consider Mighty Blow and Critical Strike as key abilities for your 2H Warden...to me, they're just an in-game way of saying "your character swung his sword really hard".   If my character was missing an ability I was used to having in a previous game, I'd just shrug.  For example, why do I care if I have a specific ability called Critical Strike or not?  Same reason I don't really care that in this game, my S&S warrior can't pull off basic moves like slicing a guy in the leg when he's running by me to get to my mage, or why can't I pin him to the wall with my shield?

It's mostly just an issue of consistency to me.  It'd be like if I went to sleep tonight, and woke up in the morning only knowing how to program in Basic (I'm a programmer, so that would be weird for me. )

If you think about it, it's all an abstraction anyways, no matter which game you're playing.  Look at various sequences in DA:O...Bioware has intentionally juggled the difficulty of various monsters (not related to level scaling) in order to create an impression on the player.  Ever notice that during the Archdemon fight, you can one-shot all the darkspawn there?  No, your character didn't get so high-level that you can one-shot them even though in the fights before you couldn't.  They do it there to make your character seem more badass (your hero slicing through waves of mooks, etc.) and also because the real focus is the archdemon.  The darkspawn are there for flavor and background, and you one-shotting them is an abstraction (or rather, their hitpoints are the abstraction).

Personally, I think that was bad game design (both because that part of the game was boringly easy, and because these random 1 hit point darkspawn just showed up out of nowhere without existing before.)

Another example: look at Mass Effect.  How do you explain the fact that you're a Lvl1 noob at the start of the game with no weapon skills whatsoever?  Shepard is being considered for Spectre status...if you can even get to that point, you're clearly one of the baddest mofo's in the galaxy.  Shepard already has a lengthy military history and experience prior to the start of the game, yet your character sheet reads "Experience = 0".  How is Shepard being considered for Spectre status if he/she can't reliably hit a thug from 10 feet away with an assault rifle going full-burst?  Hell, at Lvl 1 I think Stevie Wonder has even odds to hit that thug compared to Shepard.

Again, I think this was an issue of bad game design.

In conclusion: it's all just an abstraction.  What's important are the story choices.  If they decide to make a new game and allowed me to import my Warden from DA:O (oh would that make my day), and told me my character is now Lvl 1, or Lvl 5, or Lvl 10, or whatever, I wouldn't bat an eyebrow.  I mean, come on, you should be used to it by now.  I'm sure there are many Wardens out there who took down a Pride Demon at Lvl 9, but got owned by random Denerim thugs at Lvl 12.  It's just how RPG's go.

Interestingly, I've never encountered that particular phenomenon, but it's not entirely unlikely that a group of thugs springing an ambush would be more dangerous than a single desire demon.

I think the coherence of the setting on some level is important.  It would bug me just as much if in DA2 there was never any friendly fire, or if I suddenly had to worry about friendly fire from melee attacks.

[Novadove]

1) u can say warden adventure is over. simply because the focus of dragon age is not who in that era did what, but rather, what is happening in that era. Within the dragon age universe, there are people like warden, hawke and etc did certain things. With this in mind, therefore, we can then say that the warden adventure is over.

Whether what morrigan did or what happens later is irrelevant because it will no longer be within the age of dragon.

2) Warden story is NOT over but simply because no one, i mean, NO ONE has ever successfully "nerf" the uber character at the end of the story and thus, bioware is, at this point of time, is unable to find a good continuation context for our warden. To continue the story of warden is less exiciting and pointless, not to mention they have to think of a way to achieve something that no existing human has achieved. i.e, diablo 2, spiderman, the matrix.

that's why these characters STOPS evolving or stays the same. the uberness of our character is only a fraction of the story and memories itself. There is no way bioware is able to think of and come up with a better idea to continue our warden.

3) The success and failure of this game entirely depends on what bioware chose to do with DA
while we are arguing whether continue or discontinue is the right way of making DA2, that, is entirely not important. Some like new adventure, some like old adventure. But personally i feel,
bioware decide to make new adventure so that the title "Dragon Age" will not be restricted and confined within/by a warden's perspective. Though it is sensible to do that, in the long run, we lost the focus and disconnected with our character.

we are gonna keep asking these "where are all our friends? we gonna build relationships all over again?"

a metaphor will be "we gonna move house again. and son, u gotta go to a new school and make new friends from scratch agian."

end of the day, like what some people here say, bioware is choosing the easier way out. i really hope the epicness of this story about the darkspawn legacy is continued down to DA2 and DA3 with at least interwind relationships and story arc like lord of the rings and not 3 different hobbit in 3 different episodes in lord of the rings.

one may argue that it is still too early to conclude anything for DA2. but i am seriously worry because i do not want to play DA2, like you know, playing an all new character and start killing darkspawn again without any meaning.

so what if he did something and has a greater impact to the world? who cares if he **** in the toilet in lothering?

if i want to play a game which has same game franchise name but always different adventure and gives me kick each time without having to "increase approval again for all my characters and npc", i will wait patiently for diablo 3 seriously.

Modifié par Novadove, 01 août 2010 - 05:43 .