91 réponses à ce sujet

[Banshe]

Documentation missing here:

http://nwvault.ign.c...l.Detail&id=183

http://nwvault.ign.c...ls.Detail&id=78

If you have an external site, it may not last forever so please put this stuff somewhere where it can last forever.

I did send an email to Nytir. He gave his email address.

But the point still stands...

[ArtEChoke]

I respectfully disagree. NWN/NWN2 has a very sketchy history with respecting creators and giving credit where credit is due (and asking permission where permission is due).



I can completely sympathize a content creator who wants to maintain some level of control over his/her work.

[Hellfire_RWS]

I keep all my stuff in multiple places. I have seen CC uploaded to the vault go missing, or hard to find due to the search function.
I currently host a bunch of NWN1 content on my personal site for control reasons, (Desert of Desolation Module I3: Pharaoh and its Custom Content) . this content can not be gotten anywhere except the RWS forums and then only if you post and request the link.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Vault just has brand name recognition, it's not the greatest thing around, but its a good spot to post files. But even they won't be around forever, they shut down the forums for example, and quite a few file hosting sites have stopped. Once the money from ads is less than the cost of hosting it, it will be shut down. If you really need to make sure it's available you need to have a copy yourself and make sure to keep it posted.

[NWN DM]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Vault just has brand name recognition, it's not the greatest thing around, but its a good spot to post files. But even they won't be around forever, they shut down the forums for example, and quite a few file hosting sites have stopped. Once the money from ads is less than the cost of hosting it, it will be shut down. If you really need to make sure it's available you need to have a copy yourself and make sure to keep it posted.

Very sobering commentary... in the coming year or two, it is likely we will start to see our current sources for custom content hosting (most notably NWVault) come to an end when it's no longer financially feasable to maintain.
Always pays to make sure you have copies of the content you use, and are able to push it out to your users/players when needed.
Dropbox is great for hosting purposes in my experience.

[Banshe]

ArtEChoke wrote...

I respectfully disagree. NWN/NWN2 has a very sketchy history with respecting creators and giving credit where credit is due (and asking permission where permission is due).

I can completely sympathize a content creator who wants to maintain some level of control over his/her work.

Disagreeing is fine with me.

I don't want to drag this discussion off course but doesn't the vault give the content creator the same level of control over his/her work as a site owned by the content creator? You can add files for download in either place and pull them from either place. At least I think you are allowed to remove your submissions from the vault.


@ Hellfire: It is funny you mentioned that module. I saw the request thread (for the download link) on your forums.



As for the vault in general and even forum boards in general, there is no guarantee that any of them will exist in the future. But I still think it is a safer bet than an individual's website purely in terms of longevity.

In this case specifically, the content is on the vault, the documentation is offsite.

[c i p h e r]

I wouldn't bank on dropbox being around forever or being free forever either. Nothing lasts forever.

I do agree with Banshe in general though that content creators are far more likely to leave the NWN scene before NWVault is.

[NWN DM]

Agree on Dropbox... everyone wants their pound of flesh.

At least in this case they're providing a service.

[The Fred]

Personally, I keep the original copies I have of anything I put on the vault, and just release it free for people with to do what they want. I do ask that anyone who uses it mentions where it came from but I don't get angry or narky about it, because I do at least feel please that someone's making use of my work (though I do think people should give credit for other people's work if they use it).

The Vault is only so good because it has something of a monopoly, but I don't think that's all that bad a thing - looking at custom content for Baldur's Gate, for example, you see a lot of fragmented sites, many of which link to each other, which makes it hard to find a comprehensive list of content - plus, there were apparently big feuds between sites in the olden days. One site at least has disappeared too, leaving a lot of stuff missing. Putting everything on one site is generally better, though you stand to lose a lot more if that site drops.

[dunniteowl]

It would be nice if we lived in the perfect world where everyone shared and everyone gave credit where credit is due. Sigh, such is not the case. I think, folks who make content for a Community should probably realize that this is a fickle world. That sometimes they won't get credit and sometimes someone is going to use the content they created in ways they either didn't expect or wouldn't care for. Them's the breaks.



That said, if that's an issue for a content creator (and recognize I truly do respect those folks who spent that time making that stuff, I truly do) then it would be a wiser course of action to simply not create it. To attempt to control something that people are supposed to be able to freely use in the game, modify to some degree and build things around it, well -- I think that's sort of the expectation any content creator should have. In fact, I think that's exactly the way it was intended to work.



Control is an illusion. A nice one, I'll admit. And a principle of authorship that should be respected is a great ideal and I truly wish that all my fellow Community members felt this way as well. The simple matter is that if control is more important than sharing freely, then content creation in a Community environment is really the wrong place to ply one's skills.



That said, if you find a way that satisfies the control premise and still grants others a right to fair use in the game format the assets were created for, then more power to you, I say. Hellfire's method works well and does what it intends. It means it won't be as accessible and that's the tradeoff.



My point of view on anyone uploading to the Vault is: You put it there, you are saying, "Here it is, come and get it, but you better hurry 'cause it may not last..." I think if you're going to place assets and offerings on the vault then you are appealing to the Community ideal of sharing and open use (as long as it's being used for the game intended) and, as long as someone isn't misrepresenting the assets as their creation (and it would be awesome to give proper credit for the work of those authors) then mission accomplished.



As for documentation. I think it's incumbent upon the author to provide the necessary documentation for a complete noob to install what they made. After all, the base line is that it should be accessible for all who wish to download it from the Vault.



So I think... If you're going to use the Vault, you're essentially giving up that tighter control and by that convention, a sign of how serious an author is about keeping their content up to date includes making sure documentation is available. And I have to disagree with Banshe and say that as long as a site author maintains something somewhere, they meet that mark.



And again, this not being that perfect world, websites go down, authors lose interest (or get called away for various reasons) and pieces go missing. And like I said, them's the breaks. It's just what we have and we have to deal with that.



That pendulum swings both ways. Unless there's some better form of content storage that clearly places all content created in some form of Public Domain where it's accessible to all, and if that storage also maintains some form of metadata on all content uploaded to it (to verify original authorship and copyright of materials if needs be) then we have to deal with what we've currently got.



I appreciate both sides of the equation and I appreciate the frustration being too far on one side or the other can present.



Personally, I download those things I deem necessary and worthwhile for me to use and also record separate files of all the documentation, whether it's stored on the Vault or off on another site. If the information ever gets shut down on the net, I have both the assets I deem required, along with all the documentation on them.



And this is a good thing. Nytir's BCK series is a good example, but so is Heed's Action Sit, Boardable Ships and Heeds Tinting Tutorial. You can't get Heed's Tinting tutorial off the Vault anymore, because it was linked and that link is dead. But, because I was savvy enough to collect both the documentation and the files (just photo.jpg's really) and they are still online and available at the Citadel under the Custom Content section here: Heed's: NWN2 Tints Explained



Sometimes things like this happen and if no-one out there is prepared for that eventuality, then sometimes the great things can simply be lost. CODI Sigil assets, anyone? Pretty much gone. Oh I'm sure they're out there somewhere -- I know they were 3 years ago. Now? Not so sure.



Is the fact that someone had them under their control a good thing or not? Depends on which side of the fence you're watching the cows from. The real point is it could go either way and so we simply have to deal with it as well as we can and, even if we're on one side of the fence, be able to recognize that it's only one side of that fence.



My personal point of view is that in a Community, folks would benefit on a larger scale by being more open and more sharing than attempting to control their work once creation and upload has taken place. Sure, someone's going to get taken advantage of from time to time, but for the most part, things run pretty smoothly and it's really quite friendly.



I trust the majority of folks, by and large, to be decent people and if I let my fear of one or two less than exemplary types jaundice my entire outlook, then they've just succeeded at making the world a less cool place to be in. I'm not going to let that happen to me. I hope you all feel the same on the whole.



Now, if we could just start building this 'perfect' world concept a bit more...



best regards,

dunniteowl

[BigfootNZ]

ArtEChoke wrote...

I respectfully disagree. NWN/NWN2 has a very sketchy history with respecting creators and giving credit where credit is due (and asking permission where permission is due).

I can completely sympathize a content creator who wants to maintain some level of control over his/her work.

I would say then such content creators who want that type of control over their work should just keep that work to themselves, and leave those of us that have no problem with sharing our work with others (even those that dont give credit, theres always a few bad apples) to the Vault, we all know which content will get the most use in the end, which is more important than having any creator control.

But yes the OP has a good point, while the Vault might not be around forever its still the best file repository for the NWN1/2 community. If some overprotective CCer doesnt put their work on the Vault due to fear of loss of 'credit' or to control the works use, and then their own files and/or site goes down, or they leave the community its their own fault their material will vanish from use.

Edit:- hehe damn you Dunniteowl, beat me to it... you said what I was gonna say, but choose not to since I thought it sounded a little rantish, but yes... 100% what the blue hooter said.

Edit deuce:- good god, **looks at DNO's posts time stamp** You mean I actually took 19 minutes to write and mull over my post.

Modifié par BigfootNZ, 03 août 2010 - 04:55 .

[dunniteowl]

That only means I probably started 20 minutes before you did.



When someone mentions silver tongued and eloquent, I hoot, Who Me!



dunniteowl

[ArtEChoke]

Easy there Big(footNZ) fella' - I hope I'm incorrect in reading that as anger:

Oy! Where to begin? (gonna try and keep this short - eh, failed)

My stuff is up on the vault, I don't have any problems with that. I assume some of it is even being used, somewhere.

I do get why someone would want to self-host, request permission before distribution,etc. or heck, if only to update your own stuff instantly without the hassle of  uploading shenanigans. Its not what I do, but I get it.

Frankly, content creators should be encouraged to do things however they're comfortable with. There is a sense of entitlement here that troubles me - full unrestricted access with no strings attached, or nothing at all. Why?

BigfootNZ wrote:

we all know which content will get the most use in the end, which is more important than having any creator control.

What?

dunniteowl wrote:

- Them's the breaks.
- wiser course of action to simply not create it
- Control is an illusion
- really the wrong place to ply one's skills
- Hellfire's method works well and does what it intends.

What? Other than the complete turn-around at the end there, couldn't I just repeat that whole post from the side of the content creator saying:

"If you don't have the courtesy to ask for permission to [use/download/alter/distribute whatever], then them's the breaks/wiser course of action not to use it/entitlement is an illusion/really the wrong place to look for content?"

Again, its not my MO, anyone can use my crap, its up there. I have a webspace I could distribute from, and I don't. I use the vault, because I was asked to, and I will continue to.

BTW, wasn't Banshee's original post saying that the external hosting was temporary so we should upload everything to the vault for permanence?

[Hellfire_RWS]

Since I like to control "some" of my work, perhaps I should stop sharing it with the community, or even better, not make it at all... Hmmmm.. something for me to think about.



The above of course is me just being contrary. I will continue to make things that are open for the community and I will continue to make things I keep on a "request" basis.



My work, My call.



Shared work , like the work done at RWS between Baron and I would be a mutual decision.

and if anyone helped they woudl be in on the decision as well. In my opinion if you did not help work on the CC you have no say on how we distribute or control our work.



After our work is on the vault we have very simple usage agreement. use it in NWN2 and NWN2 only. We do not want our work in Dragon Age or in NWN1 without asking us first. Can we actaully control that, would we if we had the power to enforce it? Who knows, we will cross that bridge when we come to it.

[Frith5]

You know, this is one of those touchy subjects that I really think is better avoided, as wimpy as that sounds. It's far too personal to those who slave to create content, and no amount of verbal niceties will cover over the fact that once available for download, people will be able to be idiots about things. By that, I mean a few people may decide to snatch things up, slap them into a big 'ole pudding stone, and name it, "My Pile of Awesome Sauce". Now, I think most people know that's not the norm, but rather the actions of a few silly people. Very few, from what I've ever seen.
There are very good reasons for a CC creator to desire to keep control over their stuff. Numero Uno is so they can update it, improve it, etc., and let folks have the latest and greatest. However, 'control' is a tough beastie to define in this case, isn't it. It's more of a morality thing, to me, than anything else. It is the right thing to do, to ask permission. It is the right thing to do, to give credit. It is the right thing to do, to respect CC people's wishes.
But I don't think it's wise to try insisting on it, because just as in life it's tough to legislate morality. I think CC creators do well to make their wishes known, and CC users do well to respect those wishes. Anything else would be . . . uncivilized. I have always respected any posted wishes for CC I've seen, and I think 99% of everyone does the same. In fact, I think they'd do the same without those posted wishes, but posting them is far safer for making sure they are in fact known.
The worst thing to me is anyone stopping themselves from creating CC because of that tiny smidgen of the populace who might be messed up. I see CC people as making this stuff because it's fun to make, a challenge, and rewarding all on its own. Recognition and attaboys might be fun, but I still think the main reason people do this is because they enjoy doing it. I could be wrong. I've seen some people leave the NWN community over this issue, and I regret it. Not for the 'loss' of CC they might have created, but for their own loss. They were doing what they liked, and they stopped. I hope (and think) most of them didn't actually stop creating!
Realize that I am the ant crawling on the breadcrumbs that have fallen from the table of the CC gods, here. My investment is nothing like their investment. All I create is up for grabs, with no restrictions, no need of credit, or anything else. That does not make me 'better' or 'worse'. It's just my decision.
Main thing I wish for is people to relax and enjoy doing what they're doing.
As for the Vault, I've long dreaded the spectre of it ever closing. Scattering things in multiple locations is the best bet, in my mind.
Whew. Sorry.

Regards,
JFK

[The Fred]

As I said before, I personally have little issue with putting my stuff up as a free-for-all, but I do see the point of view that people might get annoyed if others started taking advantage of their work without giving any credit or anything - but, I personally think it's only polite to give some credit anyway, so I think people should be doing that as a matter of course.



Having to ask permission to use something is, to my mind, a barrier to ease-of-use and sharing, because it's just another layer of awkwardness - and if you're going to share your stuff, are you really going to deny someone permission? Again, though, I can kind of see that point of view even if I personally consider it a needless hassle.



As for the reliablity of the Vault, at least if people put stuff up there now, then should a time occur when it goes down, at least more people will likely have a copy of that stuff, so an alternative could be established with less loss of content.

[BigfootNZ]

Frith5 wrote...

You know, this is one of those touchy subjects that I really think is better avoided, as wimpy as that sounds. It's far too personal to those who slave to create content, and no amount of verbal niceties will cover over the fact that once available for download, people will be able to be idiots about things.

Unfortutunatly your right about that, the odd thing is it was never a problem until that frucas blew up a few years back, which to my mind was mostly due to PW dev teams having poo flinging matchs over their exclusive content being bandied around... ie the average creator who created for the community rather than a select few to make themselves 'special' had no problems at all, it was purely a select few who instigated it.

I might be wrong on that, just working on memory... which can be patchy

Oh and ArtEchoke wasn't being directly aggresive to you, so sorry if it came over that way .

I just have rather strong views on this sort of thing, to me the moment you have people restricting the use of their creations in a community designed to do the opposite... you have problems arise that affect community spirit. Yes there will always be people who use and abuse others work... but from my experience, most people give credit where credit is due and as long as the majority do so thats fine, and if I find people who dont and I recognise them as having not done so (with my own work and others) I give them an ear full.

And to your 'what?' question, by that statment I meant, id rather have lots of people using my work, regardless of how they got it, rather than having it restricted to only those who happen to download it from my original Vault page. If anyones truely interested in my work outside of the PW or module they are playin, im sure they can do a litle leg work and find out who did bits of the CC involved originally.

To me its just odd that this wasnt an issue ever, until a few years back... and compliation haks and reworks of others CC is alot, lot older than that... which to me shows it wasnt the act of combining, reworking that caused the issue to begin with, but something else.

I dont disagree with those who want control, I just dont really understand their desire, give the medium.

Edit:- smacked that fubar'd qoute tag upside its little head...

Modifié par BigfootNZ, 03 août 2010 - 10:16 .

[BigfootNZ]

Hmm odd double post... ahck, boards are out of whack for me today...

Modifié par BigfootNZ, 03 août 2010 - 11:05 .

[dunniteowl]

Actually, I think I said what I said quite well and without rancor of any sort. I posted from both sides of the issue as best as I can see it. I am clearly in favor of folks getting to do what they want with their stuff. I am also of the point of view that if you're going to share, then you can't really control who gets it and how they use it. Directorial control over keeping shared work via updates and documentation -- as I said, I think as long as it's done to some degree, then mission accomplished.

I truly respect the amount of effort and skill required to model -- or really script, for that matter. It's an effort and work worthy of being able to have some copyright control, just as you would a book or a movie. And if this were that perfect world I alluded to earlier, it'd be totally cool to share it, because you'd know no-one was going to misrepresent your work as theirs, use it in a way that you didn't intend (like tear it down and re-build it and claim the work wholly theirs, for example) or any other number of things.

The realpolitik is, though, that once out for download on the vault, you have no real control. It's just the way of the digital landscape. This has nothing to do with entitlement. And I will admit there is a large sense of that in the landscape, but that's also part of that landscape you buy into when you release work out for free in the internet. It just can't be helped. So it's not about that sense of entitlement.

If you're going to share, then you're sharing with a group of people who, in my opinion, by and large will respect your wishes and rights of use if you're reasonable. There's it's soft underbelly as well; a small contingent of folks who will never respect your wishes, never thank you, never vote, and in that group, there is a smaller core that will seek to take what you do and claim it as theirs.

And that's what I meant by them's the breaks the first time. Once it's out there, it's out of your hands. Period.

If you do like Hellfire and Moondrake do, and you control access by request, then while you retain that control to some degree (because the boogeyman is always out there, and sometimes they ask nicely.) And for that sense of control, you limit the access and use of the things you create.

It's like an artist who paints, but won't show their work. It's totally cool if that's what works for you. But in a Community environment, if that's what works for you, then -- well -- I think you can see that the comment about plying one's skills in a Community environment with that take on things isn't the best course of action. I mean, how could you possibly expect someone not to disappoint you at some point in time?

None of my point of view is intended to support or deny anyone doing what they enjoy and exercising what rights they have. My point is that, in a Community surrounding a game, where folks do make Custom Content to share, freely to use in that game, the best you can hope for is that I'm right: By and large most folks are going to be decent about it, say thanks, not try to steal your effort by false claims, etc.

And like we all know there are going to be trolls from time to time, there's going to be someone out there who will do their damndest to throw a monkey wrench into your day sooner or later. If that's a real problem, then a single off-Community-path site with limited access and greater control is a safer bet, but not a guaranty that it won't happen anyway.

And them's the breaks.

It's not meant to be insulting or to indicate that you shouldn't do what you have a right and in your power to do. It's my way of saying that no matter your level of effort, you may still not succeed. So the value, then, is in how much effort is that worth to you versus just moving along and going with the flow?

And it's totally cool whichever way you choose to go. I'm just of the view that (and I am working towards this) when I get to the point where I can have something I think doesn't suck too badly that I could share -- well, I'm gonna share it openly and ask that folks give credit where credit's due, use if for the game it was created for, and other than that -- go hog wild, surprise me.

To me, that's what sharing something is. And of course, feel free to completely disagree and act in accordance with your own point of view. That's what makes this place so cool -- diversity, not only of talent, education, background, but diversity in point of view.

dunniteowl

Modifié par dunniteowl, 04 août 2010 - 05:11 .

[Cylawyer]

Good discussion here all around. Enjoyed reading the different perspectives.



I will say that it certainly is a shame when file links go dead though.

[The Fred]

I can kind of see the point of view of PWers not wanting their content to be free-for-all because it makes their PW unique - but at the end of the day, running a PW is not really a business anyway, it's meant to be fun too, so I personally would rather sacrifice that control and uniqueness for the good of all. It would kind of take the biscuit if everone started taking advantage of your content and you never got any credit for it, though.



In terms of losing content, however, if one of those PWs goes down, that stuff could be lost.

[c i p h e r]

Hey I think I may have CODI files somewhere....

[BigfootNZ]

The Fred wrote...

I can kind of see the point of view of PWers not wanting their content to be free-for-all because it makes their PW unique - but at the end of the day, running a PW is not really a business anyway, it's meant to be fun too, so I personally would rather sacrifice that control and uniqueness for the good of all. It would kind of take the biscuit if everone started taking advantage of your content and you never got any credit for it, though.

In terms of losing content, however, if one of those PWs goes down, that stuff could be lost.

I was thinking that the other day, but in a slightly different way. Perhaps the reason some PW's have rights issues with custom content is they ARE running them like a buisness (which is against the EULA), ie making some form of donated income from it? and this unique material is the draw card for 'customers'.

For me with PW's though, its interesting... when I was playing alot of PW's years back during the first few years of NWN1 I tended to play on the ones that required the least custom CC apart from the CEP (when it eventually got released), less hassle and I got to just start playing... you could get two PW's made with the NWN OC only, being vastly different in both feeling and quality (due to design, custom scripts, custom game systems)... which begs the question, does unique custom content in a PW make for a good PW?..

For me no number of unique CC will make up for a bad PW design, its like filling in the cracks in a crumbling wall with gold dust... the cracks are still there. Also, this unique content would be a huge boost to the non-PW community and prop up a slowly dwindling flow of new material if it was released.

[MasterChanger]

Whoa, whoa, BigfootNZ. I can see an inactive PW releasing their work on the Vault or some other location; if they're not using it, why shouldn't someone else in the community learn from their work?



However, with an active PW, there's a certain amount of mystery that must be maintained from the players. That's always been the role of DM's and builders in D&D. Putting all your cards on the table just makes it all mundane.



Maybe you mean something different than what comes to mind for me when you mention putting CC up publicly. To me, this includes:



-Creature blueprints--now we know exactly how strong they are!

-Areas--now we know all the hidden elements, and can get around fog and darkness!

-Item blueprints--now we know exactly which ones to look for!

-Etc.



I think the charge that PW's are making money off donations is one you have to be very careful about. If you want to resurrect the thread from the Legacy Bioboards regarding donations go right ahead, but to me it's an entirely separate issue.

[MokahTGS]

I think in general CC means custom models, tilesets, textures, etc. Not areas, creature blueprints or anything that the average toolset user could replicate.