MC, I don't think anyone is really talking about the "nuts and bolts" stuff like creature blueprints or areas, but rather the other things that are used in a PW and could be useful to people making single player modules and campaigns. I can understand not wanting to share all of your secrets (when I get back to working on my PW Lands of Greyhawk, I won't be sharing those things either) but does everything else have to be kept under guard too?
Why all CC should be put on the vault
Débuté par
Banshe
, juil. 29 2010 12:48
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#27
Posté 05 août 2010 - 03:45
MasterChanger
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MokahTGS wrote...
I think in general CC means custom models, tilesets, textures, etc. Not areas, creature blueprints or anything that the average toolset user could replicate.
See, that's actually what I figured was being referred to, and I think that's where I have to disagree strongly at least with BigfootNZ's point. How many PW's out there are creating their own models, tilesets, and textures as opposed to just using a unique blend of CC work that's put out in hak format on the Vault or elsewhere? If that's the case for a particular PW, then it's the CC author's choice to make that work publicly available or not.
If, on the other hand, a PW is producing its own CC, I can see it as perfectly legitimate to want to keep that work on their own server. Otherwise, if you follow a certain line of reasoning, the fact that this CC was created means that it should be available, therefore it should be available on the Vault, therefore the author shouldn't complain if one person just happens to re-package their content as trash. This is me being facetious, of course, but I'm trying to illustrate the potential slippery slope of rationalization.
I appreciate that some teams make their work public. The work that Pain is doing with the character editor and DM tool, and the fact that ALFA is doing a lot of testing of that -- that will benefit other projects greatly. But that's their choice.
I guess in the end I'm not disagreeing all that strongly after all. It's just that having put in over 8 months to date of intensive work as part of a PW team, I really feel the need to support PW's control of their work (even if it isn't legally their intellectual property or anything).
#28
Posté 05 août 2010 - 05:13
dunniteowl
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And MC, I see that as a perfectly rational rationalization of the situation. In other words, that point of view is perfectly justified. However, I will offer that the way a PW is run and not the unuique bells and whistles it has as CC is always what's going to be what really makes the difference. And that aside, I am sure that if I ran a PW or helped on one, my point of view might shift somewhat in consideration of the assets, vis-a-vis models for creatures, placeables and items, etc.
A creature model requires a blueprint, but that blueprint can easily be changed from an original and the original released to the Community -- sure it's a personal call and either way is fine.
Someone PMd me the other day on this subject and I promised that if I had another reason to post, that I'd mention their comments. And, I am paraphrasing so if you're going to quote me, you're quoting my poorly translated version of someone else's idea.
And I am glad this Community is so promiscuous with CC. It's about choice. There's a lot of stuff out there that is openly shared and hardly used, judging by the download counts. Then there's other stuff that is just bringing down da house with everyone and their neighbor having downloaded it twice! That tells you pretty well which content is more popular or more widely used. And that form of sharing is like the original D&D groups who freely shared their efforts and work through Dungeon Magazine for modules, adventures, DM tips and sometimes new creatures. And then there was also Dragon Magazine, where information was also shared (and granted, you either had to get a copy from a friend or buy one so it was being paid for) across the world. New Monsters, new races, new classes, new skills and items, etc. Basically it was non digital Custom Content.
I like to think that we did not suddenly, as a Community, start being renegades and doing things differently from all the others. What I see it as, is we actually touched upon a key concept in gaming on computers that is most like what kind of sharing went on in the earlier days of D&D. Open exchange and sharing of custom content, ideas, tips, tricks and techniques. You didn't give away the entire story of your game world, but you shared the monsters, the new races and creatures, items, spells, etc. And you did it for the knowledge that what you were really sharing was the abilty for someone else to do a little bit more for their gaming group.
After all, you can still do things with orcs, kobolds and goblins that make them different in your module than in the last four you've seen them in. You can change the color of their skin, write dialogue and create encounters with them that, possibly, no-one else has done before. So if you make some new creatures for a PW, share the blank template of the blueprints, the .2da lines necesary and the model. You'll be doing something relatively unique with it anyway. So why not let someone else be able to do more? Seriously, how many folks have already mentioned that what could be done with stock assets by different people was like night and day?
Adding more content, whether it's models of creatures, armors, items, weapons, placeables, tile sets, etc, is keeping the Community growing and interested. What attracts new players once they show up, is that sharing, that openness and friendly atmosphere that pervades this Community.
The uniquity of any effort, is always going to be in the way the content is used. Not that the content itself isn't part of the new way of doing things. However, at the end of the day, the way things are used and the creative effort behind using them is really going to set any effort apart from it's kin.
If folks want to reserve things for a specific PW, then hey, that's part of the deal, too. LIke I said, it's about choice. I would just rather see folks not fear losing some mythical 'competitive' edge over some CC. I could totally buy that keeping hold of it in just one PW for a period of time (like a year or so, maybe a bit longer or shorter) is certainly not unreasonable, But sooner or later, sharing it is another way to blow your own PWs horn. And a much more visible one, I might add, that could serve to attract more players to your world, knowing what kickass content creators you also have in addition to your badass DMs and Admin staff.
It's just a thought, but maybe sharing openly could actually be a better marketing tool than holding onto something and keeping it mysterious. So mysterious, in fact, that only your players know about it. Again, it comes down to control and access. The more control you exercise, the more limited the access is. That limited access results in less exposure for the artists and content creators. If they're cool with that, so am I. And so should anyone else be. Even so, I believe, in the long run, you gain more by sharing than you do by witholding.
Your mileage may vary. I wonder how long D&D would have lasted, though, if the vast majority of that Community didn't share as much as they have?
best regards,
dunniteowl
A creature model requires a blueprint, but that blueprint can easily be changed from an original and the original released to the Community -- sure it's a personal call and either way is fine.
Someone PMd me the other day on this subject and I promised that if I had another reason to post, that I'd mention their comments. And, I am paraphrasing so if you're going to quote me, you're quoting my poorly translated version of someone else's idea.
NWN and now NWN2 are the "odd games out" when it comes to CC and Community. It was mentioned that we are something of a renegade band regarding CC. This Community has a long history of being more free and open about what we put up for sharing and very lax in the overall restrictions on it's use. Many other modding Communities are almost like a "Closed Shop" development group, where strict permissions are required to use someone else's work. It's not just asking permission, it really is someone else making sure you don't use 'their work' for something of which they don't approve.
And I am glad this Community is so promiscuous with CC. It's about choice. There's a lot of stuff out there that is openly shared and hardly used, judging by the download counts. Then there's other stuff that is just bringing down da house with everyone and their neighbor having downloaded it twice! That tells you pretty well which content is more popular or more widely used. And that form of sharing is like the original D&D groups who freely shared their efforts and work through Dungeon Magazine for modules, adventures, DM tips and sometimes new creatures. And then there was also Dragon Magazine, where information was also shared (and granted, you either had to get a copy from a friend or buy one so it was being paid for) across the world. New Monsters, new races, new classes, new skills and items, etc. Basically it was non digital Custom Content.
I like to think that we did not suddenly, as a Community, start being renegades and doing things differently from all the others. What I see it as, is we actually touched upon a key concept in gaming on computers that is most like what kind of sharing went on in the earlier days of D&D. Open exchange and sharing of custom content, ideas, tips, tricks and techniques. You didn't give away the entire story of your game world, but you shared the monsters, the new races and creatures, items, spells, etc. And you did it for the knowledge that what you were really sharing was the abilty for someone else to do a little bit more for their gaming group.
After all, you can still do things with orcs, kobolds and goblins that make them different in your module than in the last four you've seen them in. You can change the color of their skin, write dialogue and create encounters with them that, possibly, no-one else has done before. So if you make some new creatures for a PW, share the blank template of the blueprints, the .2da lines necesary and the model. You'll be doing something relatively unique with it anyway. So why not let someone else be able to do more? Seriously, how many folks have already mentioned that what could be done with stock assets by different people was like night and day?
Adding more content, whether it's models of creatures, armors, items, weapons, placeables, tile sets, etc, is keeping the Community growing and interested. What attracts new players once they show up, is that sharing, that openness and friendly atmosphere that pervades this Community.
The uniquity of any effort, is always going to be in the way the content is used. Not that the content itself isn't part of the new way of doing things. However, at the end of the day, the way things are used and the creative effort behind using them is really going to set any effort apart from it's kin.
If folks want to reserve things for a specific PW, then hey, that's part of the deal, too. LIke I said, it's about choice. I would just rather see folks not fear losing some mythical 'competitive' edge over some CC. I could totally buy that keeping hold of it in just one PW for a period of time (like a year or so, maybe a bit longer or shorter) is certainly not unreasonable, But sooner or later, sharing it is another way to blow your own PWs horn. And a much more visible one, I might add, that could serve to attract more players to your world, knowing what kickass content creators you also have in addition to your badass DMs and Admin staff.
It's just a thought, but maybe sharing openly could actually be a better marketing tool than holding onto something and keeping it mysterious. So mysterious, in fact, that only your players know about it. Again, it comes down to control and access. The more control you exercise, the more limited the access is. That limited access results in less exposure for the artists and content creators. If they're cool with that, so am I. And so should anyone else be. Even so, I believe, in the long run, you gain more by sharing than you do by witholding.
Your mileage may vary. I wonder how long D&D would have lasted, though, if the vast majority of that Community didn't share as much as they have?
best regards,
dunniteowl
#29
Posté 05 août 2010 - 06:12
MasterChanger
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DNO, everything you just said is so close to what I believe that I could just say "I agree." But following your (just a tad wordy 
) example, I'll say a little bit more.
I wholeheartedly agree that openness has made this community what it is today. Doing big Dwarven-style interiors would be much less interesting without RWS tilesets. DM'ing would be a nightmare without DMFI. Without improvements and fixes by folks such as Tony K, rgplayer1, and so on, this game would still run extremely upredicatably and incorrectly. Building PW's without HCR would be a chore. Work likes Kaedrin's has taught a bunch of people scripting, or how to use NWScript specifically (this is the case for me). And what would we do without prefabs to base our own areas on?
However, the "choice" element you talk about must be remembered. All the above projects were created out of the goodness of their authors' hearts. Our community is the richer for their work, and the more exciting for it. I personally enjoy NWN2 a lot more for it. But I'm not entitled to any of it.
To me, this is perfectly encapsulated within the concept of providing interesting work on a volunteer basis.
And regarding the strategies of mystery vs. putting-it-all-out-there, of course it's not either-or. Simply put, my perspective is to show people some cool stuff to get them interested, with the understanding that there's more where it came from.
And now I'm going to limit myself and not say any more on the subject. Hopefully I won't eat those words.
) example, I'll say a little bit more.I wholeheartedly agree that openness has made this community what it is today. Doing big Dwarven-style interiors would be much less interesting without RWS tilesets. DM'ing would be a nightmare without DMFI. Without improvements and fixes by folks such as Tony K, rgplayer1, and so on, this game would still run extremely upredicatably and incorrectly. Building PW's without HCR would be a chore. Work likes Kaedrin's has taught a bunch of people scripting, or how to use NWScript specifically (this is the case for me). And what would we do without prefabs to base our own areas on?
However, the "choice" element you talk about must be remembered. All the above projects were created out of the goodness of their authors' hearts. Our community is the richer for their work, and the more exciting for it. I personally enjoy NWN2 a lot more for it. But I'm not entitled to any of it.
To me, this is perfectly encapsulated within the concept of providing interesting work on a volunteer basis.
And regarding the strategies of mystery vs. putting-it-all-out-there, of course it's not either-or. Simply put, my perspective is to show people some cool stuff to get them interested, with the understanding that there's more where it came from.
And now I'm going to limit myself and not say any more on the subject. Hopefully I won't eat those words.
Modifié par MasterChanger, 05 août 2010 - 06:12 .
#30
Posté 05 août 2010 - 06:22
painofdungeoneternal
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You know i think sharing is what makes NWN2 worth developing for. The fights in NWN1, Baldurs Gate, and the like just make me want to not be involved. I like working with my peers, the players are not my peers, the PW admins and content creators are my team, and they are the ones who help me make my pw.
I don't want to do everything, i liberally use good code. I had one person tell me i could not improve his code and said i would be just repackaging it, so did not want me using it at all, and frankly my reaction was that i was glad he moved on to dragon age. Sad thing is that code is not in use by anyone, and i am basically recreating it, which is a waste of time which could be used for new things, and i've seen enough code by enough projects to know most folks are just working on things which already have been done by others.
Right now i have Sea of Dragons using my code. They are testing things, showing me bugs, and i am fixing them. It helps me make my PW better. They have ALL my code. Yeah here is the code for my PW. Take it, do what you will wth it.
If you see a mistake, email me. If you want to add something, i will take it, rewrite it so it works good on PW's and in SP modules. I am basically trying to make the best code library ever, and i don't think i am the best coder or the best tester, but i keep working with the community. My PW is made of free community content.
I am not competing with Sea of Dragons, they are roleplay and i am PVP. If someone takes over and does a better PW using my scripts more power to them. However if they share back anything they do just like i am doing i will do ok, and this community is too small, and i am the only one doing content for my PW, frankly i am happy every time ANY PW gets new players.
I don't want to do everything, i liberally use good code. I had one person tell me i could not improve his code and said i would be just repackaging it, so did not want me using it at all, and frankly my reaction was that i was glad he moved on to dragon age. Sad thing is that code is not in use by anyone, and i am basically recreating it, which is a waste of time which could be used for new things, and i've seen enough code by enough projects to know most folks are just working on things which already have been done by others.
Right now i have Sea of Dragons using my code. They are testing things, showing me bugs, and i am fixing them. It helps me make my PW better. They have ALL my code. Yeah here is the code for my PW. Take it, do what you will wth it.
If you see a mistake, email me. If you want to add something, i will take it, rewrite it so it works good on PW's and in SP modules. I am basically trying to make the best code library ever, and i don't think i am the best coder or the best tester, but i keep working with the community. My PW is made of free community content.
I am not competing with Sea of Dragons, they are roleplay and i am PVP. If someone takes over and does a better PW using my scripts more power to them. However if they share back anything they do just like i am doing i will do ok, and this community is too small, and i am the only one doing content for my PW, frankly i am happy every time ANY PW gets new players.
Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 05 août 2010 - 07:10 .
#31
Posté 05 août 2010 - 10:47
The Fred
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Exactly. My point of view is that while you do have the right to control your work, why would you want to? What's the point in producing stuff for NWN(2) if people can't benefit from it? It's not like you can make money for it or anything. I kind of thought the idea of creating modules was to share them, and as far as I'm concerned, this extends to all CC and other stuff, too.
#32
Posté 05 août 2010 - 02:10
ArtEChoke
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painofdungeoneternal wrote...
I had one person tell me i could not improve his code and said i would be just repackaging it, so did not want me using it at all, and frankly my reaction was that i was glad he moved on to dragon age. Sad thing is that code is not in use by anyone, and i am basically recreating it, which is a waste of time which could be used for new things, and i've seen enough code by enough projects to know most folks are just working on things which already have been done by others.
That sucks, but hats off to you for respecting the guys wishes.
#33
Posté 05 août 2010 - 02:16
Hellfire_RWS
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I have been watching this thread out of some morbid curiosity, as I did when all the CC stuff broke loose in NWN1
I see things differently I guess.
A long time ago in a NWN1 toolset far, far away I recall a big mess that happened with a couple of modules. (Don’t recall the names right now). An individual took a mod makers module and made a few area changes, corrected some spelling and grammar and uploaded the module as a corrected version. There was no end to the crying and complaining by the mod author and his fans. It was deemed wrong to take a mod makers work and re upload it. The vault sided with the author and removed the duplicated mod. I recall this happening about three times, and each time it was decided that the module should not be edited and re uploaded, and I agree with that.
I also think that the same consideration should be given to anyone who creates something for the community, be it a script, a PW, a module, or a tile set.
Since the time that NWN1 was released I have been making CC, and I have seen some very funny and disturbing things.
I have gotten emails asking for stuff, emails demanding stuff with expected dates of delivery, and even emails and PMs cussing me out for stuff I didn’t make that this person needed (Dark ruins texture variant as an example). Mostly I laugh it off and just go on my way, but emails I get about stuff someone has seen on a PW that we did not make available on the vault usually turn out upsetting me.
The emails start nice at first and eventually lead to “can I have it” to which I reply no, I made that for PW “X” and they can decide if they want to share it or not, ask them. The follow up emails are basically them telling me how much of a piece of crap I am and how they hope no one ever uses our stuff again.
If I make an art asset for a PW, module or individual player that is unique to them, I have no expectations that they should share it in any way, unless they release those haks to the vault.
The available CC from RWS that is up on the vault is only about half of what has been made. The other 50% is abandon projects or exclusive content for several PWs, modules and even just individual players who want a cool helm or something for their PC in single player module. None of this stuff I expect these individuals to share, unless they want to.
I guess my problem with this discussion is this.
Baron and I have spent such insane amounts of time making CC for NWN1 and NWN2, that I do not think it is to much to ask for people to ask before using our content for something that will have it re uploaded to the vault under another authors name. I also do not think it’s to much to ask for the Community and Vault to stand behind us if we have an issue with how our work is being redistributed.
Is an email, that takes less than a minute, to much to ask of someone who is about to repost hundreds and hundreds of hours of your work? I say its more than reasonable.
Threads and discussions like these really do get under my skin. Usually I just read them for entertainment value and move on, but this time the thread came at the right (or wrong) time. The past many years I have spent long night making CC, talking about CC or helping people with CC, So much so that I was ignoring my sleep and my health started to spiral, landing me in the hospital for two weeks. Up to the point of going in the hospital the only thing that content had cost me was my time, now its costing me real money. The amount left owing the hospital is huge even after my insurance covered most of it.
Since I got out of the hospital, I have been trying to get motivated to start more content, and it has been hard to do. The words in this thread are starting to make a lot of sense to me. “Don’t release or don’t create”. If you want any kind of control (which is not what I am after) “That’s the breaks”.
If I make models because I find it fun, that can be done without making them usable in the game, so why bother?
If I make models because I like seeing a community get use out of the stuff, is it worth the time invested just to be told, “Ooh, nice stuff, we are going to add it to our massive hak under our name and we might credit you (cause we don’t have to). BTW when are you making more?
The only time we have ever refused repackaging of our work is when someone wants to put it in another game like Oblivion or Dragon age, any NWN1 and NWN2 requests have always been approved.
Honestly, I am not mad or upset at anything that has been said, and I do not think poorly of anyone posting in this thread. This thread has simply made me ask myself an honest question. Do I want to continue making content for a NWN2, or should I move on to another game like ARMA2 or Unreal Tournament?
Should I not bother with moding games and just model for my own enjoyment?
If I were to make a decision this very moment (which I am not going to do) I would just close shop. Perhaps I’m just in a slump right now. Hopefully I will feel better about getting back into content creation soon, who knows.
No matter what, long live NWN1 and NWN2!
I see things differently I guess.
A long time ago in a NWN1 toolset far, far away I recall a big mess that happened with a couple of modules. (Don’t recall the names right now). An individual took a mod makers module and made a few area changes, corrected some spelling and grammar and uploaded the module as a corrected version. There was no end to the crying and complaining by the mod author and his fans. It was deemed wrong to take a mod makers work and re upload it. The vault sided with the author and removed the duplicated mod. I recall this happening about three times, and each time it was decided that the module should not be edited and re uploaded, and I agree with that.
I also think that the same consideration should be given to anyone who creates something for the community, be it a script, a PW, a module, or a tile set.
Since the time that NWN1 was released I have been making CC, and I have seen some very funny and disturbing things.
I have gotten emails asking for stuff, emails demanding stuff with expected dates of delivery, and even emails and PMs cussing me out for stuff I didn’t make that this person needed (Dark ruins texture variant as an example). Mostly I laugh it off and just go on my way, but emails I get about stuff someone has seen on a PW that we did not make available on the vault usually turn out upsetting me.
The emails start nice at first and eventually lead to “can I have it” to which I reply no, I made that for PW “X” and they can decide if they want to share it or not, ask them. The follow up emails are basically them telling me how much of a piece of crap I am and how they hope no one ever uses our stuff again.
If I make an art asset for a PW, module or individual player that is unique to them, I have no expectations that they should share it in any way, unless they release those haks to the vault.
The available CC from RWS that is up on the vault is only about half of what has been made. The other 50% is abandon projects or exclusive content for several PWs, modules and even just individual players who want a cool helm or something for their PC in single player module. None of this stuff I expect these individuals to share, unless they want to.
I guess my problem with this discussion is this.
Baron and I have spent such insane amounts of time making CC for NWN1 and NWN2, that I do not think it is to much to ask for people to ask before using our content for something that will have it re uploaded to the vault under another authors name. I also do not think it’s to much to ask for the Community and Vault to stand behind us if we have an issue with how our work is being redistributed.
Is an email, that takes less than a minute, to much to ask of someone who is about to repost hundreds and hundreds of hours of your work? I say its more than reasonable.
Threads and discussions like these really do get under my skin. Usually I just read them for entertainment value and move on, but this time the thread came at the right (or wrong) time. The past many years I have spent long night making CC, talking about CC or helping people with CC, So much so that I was ignoring my sleep and my health started to spiral, landing me in the hospital for two weeks. Up to the point of going in the hospital the only thing that content had cost me was my time, now its costing me real money. The amount left owing the hospital is huge even after my insurance covered most of it.
Since I got out of the hospital, I have been trying to get motivated to start more content, and it has been hard to do. The words in this thread are starting to make a lot of sense to me. “Don’t release or don’t create”. If you want any kind of control (which is not what I am after) “That’s the breaks”.
If I make models because I find it fun, that can be done without making them usable in the game, so why bother?
If I make models because I like seeing a community get use out of the stuff, is it worth the time invested just to be told, “Ooh, nice stuff, we are going to add it to our massive hak under our name and we might credit you (cause we don’t have to). BTW when are you making more?
The only time we have ever refused repackaging of our work is when someone wants to put it in another game like Oblivion or Dragon age, any NWN1 and NWN2 requests have always been approved.
Honestly, I am not mad or upset at anything that has been said, and I do not think poorly of anyone posting in this thread. This thread has simply made me ask myself an honest question. Do I want to continue making content for a NWN2, or should I move on to another game like ARMA2 or Unreal Tournament?
Should I not bother with moding games and just model for my own enjoyment?
If I were to make a decision this very moment (which I am not going to do) I would just close shop. Perhaps I’m just in a slump right now. Hopefully I will feel better about getting back into content creation soon, who knows.
No matter what, long live NWN1 and NWN2!
Modifié par Hellfire_RWS, 05 août 2010 - 02:23 .
#34
Posté 05 août 2010 - 03:10
Morbane
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Hellfire_RWS wrote:
If I were to make a decision this very moment (which I am not going to do) I would just close shop. Perhaps I’m just in a slump right now. Hopefully I will feel better about getting back into content creation soon, who knows.
I am surprised to hear things can become that intense - I always thought you RWS guys were really creative and that sharing was part of the fun. I havent made very much in they way of CC accepting what I put in my sig. But when people speak of the community I feel like if it were to deteriorate much in the way of good things that provide simple fun and a reason to own a high performace PC would be sadly buried beneath a mountain of personal grief on my part. I also always thought the "free-trade" environment of the NWN community was unanimously accepted - I done mind being wrong but I wish it was about something else.
Without much to offer but my efforts in producing a couple of modules that hopefully someone will find enjoyable when they are done would really make my day. I have always wanted to make PC games and the NWN2 TS is finally so community strong I simply hope it continued for all CC creators and especially RWS - if all I have seen is 1/2 of what you have done says that you guys at RWS are the main CC contributors around - I would HATE to loose that - but I am being selfish - I think Mod building is more important than television and definitely a creative outlet for many generous producers of CC - One thing is for sure - previously to reading this thread - I did not think anyone cared of they got credit for something I put in my project but now I am sure a mention is more a compliment than an obligation - the greatest reward for creative efforts is indeed recognition and showing it in credits or creative file names in haks and tlks for example is a small way to show appreciation.
Long live the NWN / NWN2 Communities!!!
#35
Posté 05 août 2010 - 04:20
Hellfire_RWS
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You are 100% right Morbane, sharing is part of the fun, so is creating it.
I am not good at writing so I fear my last post might have missed the point.
I have never downloaded a module, unpacked the archive and went directly to the readme looking for credit on all RWS work used. I have also never joined a PW and scoured the forums looking for credit on RWS worked used; after all we make the content to be used, and I do not expect a mod author or PW creator to ask me if its ok to use.
When I talk about wanting to be asked or given credit, I am talking about teams or individuals that do nothing more than collect content, make some 2da edits and repost the work. This in my opinion is not why I made the content. I do not object to RWS content being packaged up in compilation haks. Pain has a monster compilation that includes RWS creatures, 3C started a CEP like project that contains RWS content, and I am sure there are others out there.
It would just be nice if people would take a few min to send me an email and say “hey, I’m making a compilation, and I plan on including your stuff. You cool with that?” (Most everyone asks BTW). Now I Could say sure, and everything would be fine, or I could say HECK NO!, and the person do it anyway. I may not like it, but there wouldn’t be much if anything I could do about it.
My current CC slump is my own fault. I should have known better than to stay up late like that, night after night, but it’s a slump none the less, and has nothing to do with people asking permission or packaging work. I am just not motivated, and this thread has made me take a closer look and ask myself “Am I still happy doing this?”
I am not good at writing so I fear my last post might have missed the point.
I have never downloaded a module, unpacked the archive and went directly to the readme looking for credit on all RWS work used. I have also never joined a PW and scoured the forums looking for credit on RWS worked used; after all we make the content to be used, and I do not expect a mod author or PW creator to ask me if its ok to use.
When I talk about wanting to be asked or given credit, I am talking about teams or individuals that do nothing more than collect content, make some 2da edits and repost the work. This in my opinion is not why I made the content. I do not object to RWS content being packaged up in compilation haks. Pain has a monster compilation that includes RWS creatures, 3C started a CEP like project that contains RWS content, and I am sure there are others out there.
It would just be nice if people would take a few min to send me an email and say “hey, I’m making a compilation, and I plan on including your stuff. You cool with that?” (Most everyone asks BTW). Now I Could say sure, and everything would be fine, or I could say HECK NO!, and the person do it anyway. I may not like it, but there wouldn’t be much if anything I could do about it.
My current CC slump is my own fault. I should have known better than to stay up late like that, night after night, but it’s a slump none the less, and has nothing to do with people asking permission or packaging work. I am just not motivated, and this thread has made me take a closer look and ask myself “Am I still happy doing this?”
Modifié par Hellfire_RWS, 05 août 2010 - 04:20 .
#36
Guest_Chaos Wielder_*
Posté 05 août 2010 - 05:20
Guest_Chaos Wielder_*
Guest_Chaos Wielder_*
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All I can say for is, when the time comes for "Shagret", I'll do the right thing and contact everybody who's helped in some way(this includes textures from websites, all CC providers here and now, and anyone else), to ask for final permission to use their content. Perhaps it's because I primarily come from a 'literary' background, but I believe providing proper recognition and respect for those before us--whether in the form of ideas or in physical media--is important and necessary.
As far as NWN1/NWN2 go, I believe that this community would be better if individuals tried to respect one another better. I've had my share of lapses--either in being too critical of other's work or too demanding that people help me--and I'm disappointed by my mistakes. I suppose many modders are in the same boat, so I'm just throwing out that confessional
Also, I don't really think players, who are generally removed from these modding forums and only see the final project, know how hard it is to make something. This is not an excuse for modders to put themselves as superior, but it is *very* disconcerting to read the whining--"I wanted romance in your arena mod"--and negativity--"just go get BG2"--I occasionally see. It makes one want to stop modding
This might seem like a tangent, but I believe the root of the issue is one of respect for the author's design and intent. None of us are going to get famous from this, and it would behoove those using this passion as entertainment to not become needlessly infamous.
@ Hellfire
I hope you're still happy doing this. I, and no doubt others, genuinely enjoy seeing your content being worked on. Perhaps it's the fantastic nature of NWN2, but it's so thrilling seeing a new cliff and thinking, "I could be there"; a new monster and, "I could meet them." The plethora of imaginative encounters waiting, lurking just in our minds is vast, and I think your work, collectively, allows that to be explored.
And, besides, I'd miss you.
As far as NWN1/NWN2 go, I believe that this community would be better if individuals tried to respect one another better. I've had my share of lapses--either in being too critical of other's work or too demanding that people help me--and I'm disappointed by my mistakes. I suppose many modders are in the same boat, so I'm just throwing out that confessional
Also, I don't really think players, who are generally removed from these modding forums and only see the final project, know how hard it is to make something. This is not an excuse for modders to put themselves as superior, but it is *very* disconcerting to read the whining--"I wanted romance in your arena mod"--and negativity--"just go get BG2"--I occasionally see. It makes one want to stop modding
This might seem like a tangent, but I believe the root of the issue is one of respect for the author's design and intent. None of us are going to get famous from this, and it would behoove those using this passion as entertainment to not become needlessly infamous.
@ Hellfire
I hope you're still happy doing this. I, and no doubt others, genuinely enjoy seeing your content being worked on. Perhaps it's the fantastic nature of NWN2, but it's so thrilling seeing a new cliff and thinking, "I could be there"; a new monster and, "I could meet them." The plethora of imaginative encounters waiting, lurking just in our minds is vast, and I think your work, collectively, allows that to be explored.
And, besides, I'd miss you.
#37
Posté 05 août 2010 - 06:15
Baron_RWS
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Hellfire gave me a call and asked if I was following this thread, I told him "fat chance - I have a login on the social forums simply in case" but he asked if I would take a look. I have and what follows is my take.
First of all, going all the way back to the topic at hand, I agree that content for nwn2 should be shared on the vault, a single source for content is far more preferable than innumerable points. However I say that with a few caveats.
As Hellfire has mentioned we at RWS have done "by request" content for some PW's & modules. We happily made this content with the intent that it was exclusive to that PW or module and have left the release of that content on the vault entirely up to the PW or mod. This stuff includes entire tilesets, or placeable packs. That content we will not, nor will we ever post as it was never intended to be for widespread community use.
I think it safe to say that everything else we do for the community will be found on the vault.
In so far as control goes, I agree with the camp that holds that control over your content is an illusion. Doesnt matter if you control access to it or not once its out of your hands the control is effectively lost. Take a look at any of our posts, we do not demand or even ask that RWS be credited when the content is used as intended. Like Hellfire, I havent downloaded a single module with the intent to see if our content is being used or to see if we are being credited for it, I have far more important things to do with my life, like toenail trimming.
Hellfire and I agree however that if someone wants to include our work in a compilation or in a case where our work is modified in some way, we ask that the compiler in question ask us first and that they mention that the work they have modified is our work. We have been approached to have our work ported to other games and we have resisted that, we prefer that this work be unique to nwn2 and nwn2 only, this is just personal preference, if we want to see it ported to another game we will do so ourselves.
Hellfire and I have both expended huge amounts of time on creating content for NWN2, and I truely dont think many community members appreciate the time involved in the creation of some of our work.
We have tilesets that represent months of time on both of our parts. Consider that most of our content has at the very least a months worth of time invested in it, then consider that the 31 entries we have available on the vault represents probably 70% of our total body of completed work and like Hellfire said 50% of of all the work we have done that was intended for nwn2 and you can begin to appreciate how much effort has gone into this.
Hellfire has mentioned the physical toll this has taken on him, which I withheld from many many people who e-mailed me about when he would be coming back. Frankly it was nobodies business. The effect on me has been less horrific I am happy to say. I can say that I have only once recieved a demanding e-mail from a community member and maybe one or two e-mails that contained rebarbative language. I am fortunate in that my name isnt on the front door of RWS. These sorts of e-mails have been thankfully, very few and VERY far between but the fact that they exist can be disheartening sometimes.
All of that depressing stuff aside
, we have been so very fortunate, we have a large cadre of (dare I call them) "fans" who heap voluminous praise upon us and we get the occasional screenshot of work that is done using our stuff, it really makes it worth it. But I assure you, the second it ceases to be fun, will be the second just before we close up shop.
#38
Posté 05 août 2010 - 06:27
Hellfire_RWS
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@ Baron
See thats why I wanted you to respond, you sooo much better with words than I
See thats why I wanted you to respond, you sooo much better with words than I
#39
Posté 05 août 2010 - 06:46
kamalpoe
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In addition to a credits file (mine will be huge with all the prefabs, CC etc), I've tried to sneak in some ingame mentions that are not out of character. So in a dwarven prefab area that SGK made, there is a usable plaque I added that says that SGK was the great dwarven architect that built the buildings in the area. Easter eggs of sorts, they are not hidden but may seem curious unless you know the community.
I haven't been able to get all the CC makers I've used referenced, it can be hard to get references in and keep things in character. But I might have an npc mention that a creature made by ArtEChoke happens to be allergic to artichokes for instance. Now if you didn't know ArtEChoke made the creature that npc's statement might make you go "huh?", but if you did know Art made it it's a good inside reference.
In the first Path of Evil module, I mentioned all the community content I used in the loadtips as well as the credits file. (In the campaign I removed these in favor of generic Faerun lore so the custom tips could be reused by others).
I haven't been able to get all the CC makers I've used referenced, it can be hard to get references in and keep things in character. But I might have an npc mention that a creature made by ArtEChoke happens to be allergic to artichokes for instance. Now if you didn't know ArtEChoke made the creature that npc's statement might make you go "huh?", but if you did know Art made it it's a good inside reference.
In the first Path of Evil module, I mentioned all the community content I used in the loadtips as well as the credits file. (In the campaign I removed these in favor of generic Faerun lore so the custom tips could be reused by others).
#40
Posté 05 août 2010 - 06:51
Hellfire_RWS
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In addition to a credits file (mine will be huge with all the prefabs, CC etc), I've tried to sneak in some ingame mentions that are not out of character. So in a dwarven prefab area that SGK made, there is a usable plaque I added that says that SGK was the great dwarven architect that built the buildings in the area. Easter eggs of sorts, they are not hidden but may seem curious unless you know the community.
I haven't been able to get all the CC makers I've used referenced, it can be hard to get references in and keep things in character. But I might have an npc mention that a creature made by ArtEChoke happens to be allergic to artichokes for instance. Now if you didn't know ArtEChoke made the creature that npc's statement might make you go "huh?", but if you did know Art made it it's a good inside reference.
Hahaha, thats awesome, I love stuff like that.
We need to get ArtEChoke an Artichoke Avatar
Maybe... this?
#41
Posté 05 août 2010 - 07:18
Morbane
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This is more of what I was trying to sayChaosWielder wrote:@ Hellfire
I hope you're still happy doing this. I, and no doubt others, genuinely enjoy seeing your content being worked on. Perhaps it's the fantastic nature of NWN2, but it's so thrilling seeing a new cliff and thinking, "I could be there"; a new monster and, "I could meet them." The plethora of imaginative encounters waiting, lurking just in our minds is vast, and I think your work, collectively, allows that to be explored.
:innocent:
#42
Posté 05 août 2010 - 07:21
dunniteowl
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Well, I think we all seem to agree on several points.
Most importantly, credit where credit is due stands out as primary. It's not about ego-stroking (as obviously both Baron and Hellfire can attest) and it is about that simple commodity, Respect.
I think these types of threads help serve that purpose when it stays calm like this one has. It points out the different sides of the issue from varying perspectives. That's a really good thing in any Community. That of being able to speak your mind and view things that others have to say -- especially about such a topic as this, Custom Content -- and be able to respond not only as a point counterpoint, but to be able to truly hear what people are saying and being able to reflect on it.
As I have said all along, giving credit where credit is due, especially in a Community such as this one, is probably the best thing you can do. If this were that perfect world I alluded to in my first post, it would be like this Community, only better. That's my take on it. That's why I'm a moderator here and at the Citadel. I think this Community ROCKS in oh so many ways.
Our Custom Content, especially models of one sort or another, represents ENORMOUS personal expenditure of time and effort on the part of the authors. If you've ever looked at trying to script, found it just a tad too far out of your league, then found scripted systems up on the vault for you to use , or found new models and placeables and creatures, etc, that were 'just right' for what you wanted to do -- and you know you don't model at all -- HOW COULD YOU NOT THANK THOSE PEOPLE!??!
And, as I also said, I believe that by and large, this Community is full of decent, honest and respectful people, just as I believe there are more people like that in the world than not. I hope in most cases, I have been able to provide not only rhetoric of good examples of behavior, but that I have also been seen as a reasonably good example of the behavior I espouse.
I think the world of any content creator. I am learning to model (and I have someone whom I feel is a really good mentor) and in the process of trying to teach myself out of books over the years (YEARS) I know that I have to rely on someone who really knows what they're doing and can explain it simply. In all that time and in all the time I have spent building and creating PnP modules, board wargames (that no-one's ever played) and card games and other such things, I know the kind of passion and the kind of work expenditure it takes to soldier on.
And as I learn more about modeling, my respect for others who are already turning out stuff just goes up notch after notch after notch. And, realistically, if someone requests a specific model set for a PW or SP module, then the intent to distribute that work openly to the Community, as baron and Hellfire stated, is really up to them. I can totally hang with that.
If, however, you are going to release anything to the Vault, then it is openly implied that it is there to be used by all and sundry. Even so, those of us who download and use that content, aren't we at least obligated to take the time, if nothing else to say, "Hey, I really just would like to THANK YOU for going out of your way to do this. It's AWESOME!"
And that is the real issue more than anything else. Respect. If someone is willing to share, then there's going to be sharing, make no mistake. That doesn't mean, though, that giving credit where credit's due has been consigned to implied thanks by an author's download counter. You owe those people so much more than a mere number in a counter. And honestly, one of the things that has always kept me going doing things that, in essence, I find enjoyable, has been folks seeing it and saying, "Hey, that's really nice, thanks." Or words to that effect. I'm willing to bet that I am not the only person that responds well to a sincere thank you to fill my passion cup.
Thank you, once again, Hellfire, Baron, ArtEChoke, Daronas, Jonny Ree, ladydesire, ladyelvenstar, peachykeen, barrelofmonkeyzz, Evil Edison, _Knightmare_, Lilac Soul, Barry the Hatchet, Adinos, painofdungeoneternal, Heed, rpgplayer, Kaedrin, Machin Sin, QKrch, ArPharazon, and countless others whom do not readily come to my head in the moment. If I could, I would happily come to each and every one of you and shake your hands while telling you what an honor it is to be able to personally thank each and every one of you.
I mean that. This Community may ROCK, but you content creators are the Foundation ROCK and module makers the FOUNDATION that stands upon it. You all deserve much more than I can give beyond words.
And thank the rest of you for commenting as well as giving this thread it's due consideration in a civil manner. One more proof of the ROCK factor of this Community.
best regards,
dunniteowl
Most importantly, credit where credit is due stands out as primary. It's not about ego-stroking (as obviously both Baron and Hellfire can attest) and it is about that simple commodity, Respect.
I think these types of threads help serve that purpose when it stays calm like this one has. It points out the different sides of the issue from varying perspectives. That's a really good thing in any Community. That of being able to speak your mind and view things that others have to say -- especially about such a topic as this, Custom Content -- and be able to respond not only as a point counterpoint, but to be able to truly hear what people are saying and being able to reflect on it.
As I have said all along, giving credit where credit is due, especially in a Community such as this one, is probably the best thing you can do. If this were that perfect world I alluded to in my first post, it would be like this Community, only better. That's my take on it. That's why I'm a moderator here and at the Citadel. I think this Community ROCKS in oh so many ways.
Our Custom Content, especially models of one sort or another, represents ENORMOUS personal expenditure of time and effort on the part of the authors. If you've ever looked at trying to script, found it just a tad too far out of your league, then found scripted systems up on the vault for you to use , or found new models and placeables and creatures, etc, that were 'just right' for what you wanted to do -- and you know you don't model at all -- HOW COULD YOU NOT THANK THOSE PEOPLE!??!
And, as I also said, I believe that by and large, this Community is full of decent, honest and respectful people, just as I believe there are more people like that in the world than not. I hope in most cases, I have been able to provide not only rhetoric of good examples of behavior, but that I have also been seen as a reasonably good example of the behavior I espouse.
I think the world of any content creator. I am learning to model (and I have someone whom I feel is a really good mentor) and in the process of trying to teach myself out of books over the years (YEARS) I know that I have to rely on someone who really knows what they're doing and can explain it simply. In all that time and in all the time I have spent building and creating PnP modules, board wargames (that no-one's ever played) and card games and other such things, I know the kind of passion and the kind of work expenditure it takes to soldier on.
And as I learn more about modeling, my respect for others who are already turning out stuff just goes up notch after notch after notch. And, realistically, if someone requests a specific model set for a PW or SP module, then the intent to distribute that work openly to the Community, as baron and Hellfire stated, is really up to them. I can totally hang with that.
If, however, you are going to release anything to the Vault, then it is openly implied that it is there to be used by all and sundry. Even so, those of us who download and use that content, aren't we at least obligated to take the time, if nothing else to say, "Hey, I really just would like to THANK YOU for going out of your way to do this. It's AWESOME!"
And that is the real issue more than anything else. Respect. If someone is willing to share, then there's going to be sharing, make no mistake. That doesn't mean, though, that giving credit where credit's due has been consigned to implied thanks by an author's download counter. You owe those people so much more than a mere number in a counter. And honestly, one of the things that has always kept me going doing things that, in essence, I find enjoyable, has been folks seeing it and saying, "Hey, that's really nice, thanks." Or words to that effect. I'm willing to bet that I am not the only person that responds well to a sincere thank you to fill my passion cup.
Thank you, once again, Hellfire, Baron, ArtEChoke, Daronas, Jonny Ree, ladydesire, ladyelvenstar, peachykeen, barrelofmonkeyzz, Evil Edison, _Knightmare_, Lilac Soul, Barry the Hatchet, Adinos, painofdungeoneternal, Heed, rpgplayer, Kaedrin, Machin Sin, QKrch, ArPharazon, and countless others whom do not readily come to my head in the moment. If I could, I would happily come to each and every one of you and shake your hands while telling you what an honor it is to be able to personally thank each and every one of you.
I mean that. This Community may ROCK, but you content creators are the Foundation ROCK and module makers the FOUNDATION that stands upon it. You all deserve much more than I can give beyond words.
And thank the rest of you for commenting as well as giving this thread it's due consideration in a civil manner. One more proof of the ROCK factor of this Community.
best regards,
dunniteowl
#43
Posté 05 août 2010 - 07:28
ArtEChoke
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Dude. You can't do that to me. Its like a bat signal.
I click on the page, idly scroll down a bit and whoamygod...
I think I'm over caffeinated.
@kamalpoe, thanks for the reference!
Edit: in reference to the ArtEChoke signal there, of course... in the time I dumbly stared at my own post before hitting send... two people posted... I need a lobotomy.
I click on the page, idly scroll down a bit and whoamygod...
I think I'm over caffeinated.
@kamalpoe, thanks for the reference!
Edit: in reference to the ArtEChoke signal there, of course... in the time I dumbly stared at my own post before hitting send... two people posted... I need a lobotomy.
Modifié par ArtEChoke, 05 août 2010 - 07:34 .
#44
Posté 05 août 2010 - 07:31
painofdungeoneternal
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I think what this says is, if you go working on projects, you should respect those who already are working on them. If i have a project to fix issue X, and am doing it all alone, i really get kind of irritated to see someone else doing the exact same thing instead of just pitching in and helping on project X. If there are typos in my work, tell me about them so i can fix them and don't "fork" projects needlessly. I mean i have a compilation of all the monsters, which if used will reduce download times for multiple projects, but if someone else does joe's monster pack, with a few creatures on different rows we end up doing double work, it creates conflicting 2da's and this community is far too small and has far too few modders to have everyone focus on the same content. I mean if you really want to take over that monster pack, i'll give you access in some way and you can take over as project lead and fix things as needed.
For Nytir's stuff i fixed the blueprints, asked permission, and asked him to put the corrections on his vault page. He left making stuff for NWN2 so said i should just upload them myself, and i included the work of others i could contact. And made sure it's all good.
If i repackage Hellfires stuff, i want him to be able to look at it and make sure it reflects his quality standards and i make sure to label the hak with his content as RWS. Credit is pretty important and this is something which motivates modelers, so i want to avoid the CEP monstrosity where everything gets thrown together.
Even then i describe EVERYTHING i do as community done, since i have no clue how much is really my work at this point. Small stuff is just hard to keep track of, things like where i adjusted the appearance.2da to do the first person view which was a brilliant idea. It starts out being me going this is cool and pasting it in. Then i revise this part or that part as i go, and eventually it likely basically becomes code i wrote, but most of it started as things written by OEI or bioware which i have just revised over and over. I try when i first touch it now to put in an @author comment in, but the things which i first started with i did think of that yet.
And this ignores how often things were done by Grinning Fool, Elven, Lokey, Zebranky, 010010, Skywing, or the many other coders who are better at it than i am. For example one day Grinning Fool said in a single comment that creating a proxy creature with a ondamaged event, and putting in a shared damage on a PC, would allow running an on damaged script on a PC, this is genius and while i implemented and am testing it, this is entirely his idea. I have spent many hours reworking every function based on comments from these scripters who've been doing it for years on what the best practice should be.
It's hard not to use others code, sometimes there just is one way to do it, and once you see it, i mean how many ways are there to do code to figure out the xp needed to get a certain level, and it's a major reason why you can't patent a math formula. Fortunately in the NWN2 community everyone is willing to share for the most part, and i've changed my code, 2da's and quite a few other things each time someone requests it. And i prefer working based on the shoulders of others rather than trying to reach those heights all by myself. ( i think i need to credit dunniteowl on that last line )
The issue of asking, or putting credits, and saying thanks, and doing screenshots, that is more an issue of having class. Just because you can do something, does not mean it's right. The thing i like about NWN2 is that people do in fact ask, they do put credit where credit is due, and when you ask they not only say yes, they help you figure out what is wrong. The dealings i've had with just a few in NWN1 basically make me want to avoid the entire community, i'd rather just not use other peoples stuff if it means forum drama of any sort, it just is not worth it, nor is it fun.
We need to remember that how much content we have is up to the people making it. If they want it to be done on restricted terms, i would much rather have it on limited terms, and not in compilations than to have it not exist at all. Respect these folks, be kind to them and say please a lot. They do things the average person can't, and as such we need to treat them as we'd wish to be treated, to be polite to them and make sure regardless that whatever happens remains on terms they both agree with and that don't disrupt the fun they are having.
For Nytir's stuff i fixed the blueprints, asked permission, and asked him to put the corrections on his vault page. He left making stuff for NWN2 so said i should just upload them myself, and i included the work of others i could contact. And made sure it's all good.
If i repackage Hellfires stuff, i want him to be able to look at it and make sure it reflects his quality standards and i make sure to label the hak with his content as RWS. Credit is pretty important and this is something which motivates modelers, so i want to avoid the CEP monstrosity where everything gets thrown together.
Even then i describe EVERYTHING i do as community done, since i have no clue how much is really my work at this point. Small stuff is just hard to keep track of, things like where i adjusted the appearance.2da to do the first person view which was a brilliant idea. It starts out being me going this is cool and pasting it in. Then i revise this part or that part as i go, and eventually it likely basically becomes code i wrote, but most of it started as things written by OEI or bioware which i have just revised over and over. I try when i first touch it now to put in an @author comment in, but the things which i first started with i did think of that yet.
And this ignores how often things were done by Grinning Fool, Elven, Lokey, Zebranky, 010010, Skywing, or the many other coders who are better at it than i am. For example one day Grinning Fool said in a single comment that creating a proxy creature with a ondamaged event, and putting in a shared damage on a PC, would allow running an on damaged script on a PC, this is genius and while i implemented and am testing it, this is entirely his idea. I have spent many hours reworking every function based on comments from these scripters who've been doing it for years on what the best practice should be.
It's hard not to use others code, sometimes there just is one way to do it, and once you see it, i mean how many ways are there to do code to figure out the xp needed to get a certain level, and it's a major reason why you can't patent a math formula. Fortunately in the NWN2 community everyone is willing to share for the most part, and i've changed my code, 2da's and quite a few other things each time someone requests it. And i prefer working based on the shoulders of others rather than trying to reach those heights all by myself. ( i think i need to credit dunniteowl on that last line )
The issue of asking, or putting credits, and saying thanks, and doing screenshots, that is more an issue of having class. Just because you can do something, does not mean it's right. The thing i like about NWN2 is that people do in fact ask, they do put credit where credit is due, and when you ask they not only say yes, they help you figure out what is wrong. The dealings i've had with just a few in NWN1 basically make me want to avoid the entire community, i'd rather just not use other peoples stuff if it means forum drama of any sort, it just is not worth it, nor is it fun.
We need to remember that how much content we have is up to the people making it. If they want it to be done on restricted terms, i would much rather have it on limited terms, and not in compilations than to have it not exist at all. Respect these folks, be kind to them and say please a lot. They do things the average person can't, and as such we need to treat them as we'd wish to be treated, to be polite to them and make sure regardless that whatever happens remains on terms they both agree with and that don't disrupt the fun they are having.
#45
Posté 05 août 2010 - 07:38
MokahTGS
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- 946 messages
**Mokah starts making a list of people that have not properly thanked/credited/worshiped RWS for their NWN2 content**
I'm not sure people understand how much of an impact the CC authors have had on the modding community. People like Barron, Hellfire, ArtEChoke, and many others make creating look like childsplay to noobs such as myself and so I feel that a lot of what they do goes without notice.
Speaking for the selfish/evil/greedy hordes of custom content users, let me be the first to say, that NWN/NWN2 would be long dead if not for people like RWS. DEAD. SMOKING CRATOR.
Seriously, let me offer my services to hunt down and make a squeeling example of anyone who releases anything created by someone else as their own or without proper credit.
I have enjoyed 8 years of building because of these custom content guys. Eight years of happy building, dreaming, and I think I even released a couple things. All possible because these people gave up hours of time for the same thing. I dearly hope that I have never been one of those demanding people. If so, I will gladly hunt myself down and apply the nipple clamps.
I understand their position, and am really saddened that even the consideration of stopping was made because of this.
I'm not sure people understand how much of an impact the CC authors have had on the modding community. People like Barron, Hellfire, ArtEChoke, and many others make creating look like childsplay to noobs such as myself and so I feel that a lot of what they do goes without notice.
Speaking for the selfish/evil/greedy hordes of custom content users, let me be the first to say, that NWN/NWN2 would be long dead if not for people like RWS. DEAD. SMOKING CRATOR.
Seriously, let me offer my services to hunt down and make a squeeling example of anyone who releases anything created by someone else as their own or without proper credit.
I have enjoyed 8 years of building because of these custom content guys. Eight years of happy building, dreaming, and I think I even released a couple things. All possible because these people gave up hours of time for the same thing. I dearly hope that I have never been one of those demanding people. If so, I will gladly hunt myself down and apply the nipple clamps.
I understand their position, and am really saddened that even the consideration of stopping was made because of this.
Modifié par MokahTGS, 05 août 2010 - 07:41 .
#46
Posté 05 août 2010 - 07:50
JasonNH
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I was ninja'd by MokahTGS as I came here to post some similar, those less vigilante-like sentiments. After watching the DA community recently open up a bunch of wounds and risk making new ones, I cringed when I saw this thread begin. I can't say enough about the pure gold that RWS and other content creators have given to the community. As far as I am concerned, I have no rights to make expectations or judgments about what they do with their stuff. We are their debtors, end of story.
Thanks again to everyone who so willingly shares their time and talents to keep this game going.
After watching the DA community recently open up a bunch of wounds and risk making new ones, I cringed when I saw this thread begin. I can't say enough about the pure gold that RWS and other content creators have given to the community. As far as I am concerned, I have no rights to make expectations or judgments about what they do with their stuff. We are their debtors, end of story.Thanks again to everyone who so willingly shares their time and talents to keep this game going.
#47
Posté 05 août 2010 - 07:53
The Fred
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Well, to come back to the title of the thread slightly, I for one would strongly advise CC makers to share their stuff on the Vault or a similar location, though of course I fully respect the work that many people put in, and respect their right not to put stuff up.
To my mind, putting stuff up on the Vault includes, unless otherwise noted, a sort of unspoken license for others to use your work (otherwise why are you putting it up). However, I would also even more strongly encourage people to ask permission for use wherever the author has made it clear they would like that.
I also think everyone should always give some thanks or credit for it (even more strongly than the other two, in fact). As far as I'm concerned, that's just common courtesy, and there's no real reason for someone to get narky over someone else using their stuff if they thank them for it (though I realise other people have slightly differing opinions on this - certainly if you asked someone not to use it, I could see you getting annoyed, and in fact I would too, only I probably wouldn't ask someone not to use my stuff, but anyway, I digress).
In short, a bit of respect for other people's work and some general politeness are all that's really required. If everyone followed that I'd think people who are in two minds about sharing things might be more willing to do so, as much as anything.
To my mind, putting stuff up on the Vault includes, unless otherwise noted, a sort of unspoken license for others to use your work (otherwise why are you putting it up). However, I would also even more strongly encourage people to ask permission for use wherever the author has made it clear they would like that.
I also think everyone should always give some thanks or credit for it (even more strongly than the other two, in fact). As far as I'm concerned, that's just common courtesy, and there's no real reason for someone to get narky over someone else using their stuff if they thank them for it (though I realise other people have slightly differing opinions on this - certainly if you asked someone not to use it, I could see you getting annoyed, and in fact I would too, only I probably wouldn't ask someone not to use my stuff, but anyway, I digress).
In short, a bit of respect for other people's work and some general politeness are all that's really required. If everyone followed that I'd think people who are in two minds about sharing things might be more willing to do so, as much as anything.
#48
Posté 05 août 2010 - 08:25
Hellfire_RWS
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JasonNH wrote...
After watching the DA community recently open up a bunch of wounds and risk making new ones
You wouldn;t have a link to some of that would you? I lvoe reading the drama but at the same time I feel sorry for the commuity that has to suffer with it.
Dunniteowl wrote...
f threads help serve that purpose when it stays calm like this one has. It points out the different sides of the issue from varying perspectives. That's a really good thing in any Community. That of being able to speak your mind and view things that others have to say -- especially about such a topic as this, Custom Content -- and be able to respond not only as a point counterpoint, but to be able to truly hear what people are saying and being able to reflect on it.
I am so very glad to see this thread stay peaceful adn respectful. I was afraid it wouldiral out of control.
Back on topic for a bit.
Once you files are on the vault, and on your private server,and dropbox, you can also uplaod to filefront.
if you submit your file for certification, they will never be put in the que to be deleted automatically.
#49
Posté 05 août 2010 - 10:27
Shallina
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Gimme all the custom content you have made ! I haven't the time to learn to do it since I4am working with the toolset...
More seriously, for BGR I grabbed almost everything worth it on the vault, tested it and see if I could use it to complete the work.
When a custom content is not exactly what I want but "almost" I'am not afraid to take it and tweak it. (I changed some texture for some custom content for exemple).
The hard part was to have all that cool stuff working together.
I saw all that custom content, all those very great creation. And I said to myself :
Damn if I could have all of them in a single game I could do some incredible things !!!
Also When I find some fine script very well written that does something very cool, I take it and adapt it if it does something that I need.
I got so much to do, I haven't the time to do on my own what the others did well
More seriously, for BGR I grabbed almost everything worth it on the vault, tested it and see if I could use it to complete the work.
When a custom content is not exactly what I want but "almost" I'am not afraid to take it and tweak it. (I changed some texture for some custom content for exemple).
The hard part was to have all that cool stuff working together.
I saw all that custom content, all those very great creation. And I said to myself :
Damn if I could have all of them in a single game I could do some incredible things !!!
Also When I find some fine script very well written that does something very cool, I take it and adapt it if it does something that I need.
I got so much to do, I haven't the time to do on my own what the others did well
Modifié par Shallina, 05 août 2010 - 10:29 .
#50
Posté 05 août 2010 - 11:08
ladydesire
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Hellfire_RWS wrote...
JasonNH wrote...
After watching the DA community recently open up a bunch of wounds and risk making new ones
You wouldn;t have a link to some of that would you? I lvoe reading the drama but at the same time I feel sorry for the commuity that has to suffer with it.
http://social.biowar...8/index/3276201 I believe this is the thread that JasonNH was refering to.
