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Jacob, Grunt and the Vanguard


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#1
Ahalazar

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Well, hello there again.
This "small" post is dedicated to the answering of the following question: Why don't people like Jacob?
Applies to both chicks and dudes.
It has surely been discussed before but nonetheless this one contains my personal opinion and some facts about the 2 characters.

Assume we're talking Insanity difficulty here.
As such, if you took Grunt on a mission with you (or more missions), ask yourself:
-How many times you were disappointed because the great mighty purebred Krogan died in front of a fire bug, or in front of an Eclipse Merc..
-How many times did you fight Krogans and then thought: "Honestly, Grunt is worthless, I should hire these guys instead of his white armored arse!"
-How many times did he rush in the fight yelling "I AM KROOOOGAAAAN!!!!" and die in 2 seconds?
-How bloody stupid can that alien be?!

After answering these, ask them again but for Jacob.

Behavior:
For me, Jacob is pure elite soldier (use my power-through armor mod if you want and he'll be even stronger).
He's not a raging cretin like Grunt and actually knows when to use his biotics!
Won't run from cover in an enemy's face just to make a point, he'll blow a hole through that face instead without getting shot to bits.
Plus I like his war shouts. "YOUR GUN! MY GUN! SHOTGUN!"

Appearance:
I imagine most male players could find his suit way too damn tight so that can surely be a no-no. Better Miranda's tight suit rather than Jacob's right?
Ladies? You don't like what you're seeing? Not enough Teal'c (SG1) in there for you? Black not good? Well shaped abs and pecs not a good sight?

On the Grunt side. If you look carefully at the Unreal Matinee cutscene (CG if you prefer) when you wake the Krogan up, your first reaction should be: "Christ, he's gigantic!!!"
I mean look at those shoulder, 2 times your head, his legs are thick, his knees are also of Shep-head-size.
But then the cutscene is over and the reaction turns to: "What the f?!" The guy is as big as you, maybe a little bit smaller, all of that imposing and frightening appearance disappeard. Lame-o.
That was a very big put-off for me; why would I take a pure-bred Krogan with me if he doesn't even scare me?

Personality:
He seems to be very "earthly", very plain. The voice is bland but it fits the character without a hitch. He acts tough but he's exactly like Garrus, a fire inside (Garrus wants revenge, Jacob wants justice).
Granted, plain is bad, bland is bad and exotic tends to make one tilt the other side, but is there something more that I am missing? What makes him sooo unlikable? He's like any guy you would meet in life, can't be all THAT bad. Can it?

Grunt: kill them all. Simple, concise, precise, nice. Funny too. (He's on the Dark Side of the Force)

Skills:
Jacob doesn't have the Vanguard's charge skill, which is pretty sad. He does however have crowd control, inferno, and shield recharge like a Vanguard (you can use barrier for that). He deals a good deal of damage with that shotgun and his class skills is pretty good.
All in all, he's a Vanguard except that he doesn't teleport on the battlefield.

Grunt's skills look like he is meant to be invincible. Regeneration, Armor (shields), damage reduction. Stun shot for crowd control.
They are there to make him the perfect soldier...
if he weren't charging on the battlefield and lose all his life in 2 seconds that is. Even with group control he still acts like a bloody idiot for me.

Just in case you don't believe me, use Jacob with your Vanguard and then use Grunt with your Vanguard, you'll notice that Grunt tends to die a lot.

Discuss if you want.

----
EDIT: Some spelling errors corrected.

Modifié par Ahalazar, 29 juillet 2010 - 03:58 .


#2
NICKjnp

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Link - I beg to differ!

#3
Ahalazar

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Notice how the Scion is focused on the player rather than Grunt?

Please beg on your knees if you want to differ.

#4
NICKjnp

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Ahalazar wrote...

Notice how the Scion is focused on the player rather than Grunt?
Please beg on your knees if you want to differ.


Actually... Jacob always gets knocked on his ass.  He is not a bad character.... but Grunt is more of a soldier than he is.  The problem is that they took away one of the squad powers during development that nerfed some of the characters.  Jacob originaly had pull and warp.  Those would have been a lethal combination... but they took warp away from him and gave it to Miranda.

And I've seen Grunt goe Toe to Toe with a Scion before.  Jacob can't do that.  He may have pull but he doesn't have Grunt's staying power.

So you can get on YOUR knees and beg to differ.

Link - pause at 4:39.

#5
Ahalazar

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I see it.

The "your knees part" was a joke actually :P



As for Grunt taking on a Scion I believe you.

I am just annoyed at the hype over Grunt while for me he dies in easy situations. He died on Horizon, he died on Illium, he died a lot actually.



Interesting to see they took that power off, Probably because Miranda already has it.

Still there's also the other stuff I wrote that make me like Jacob more than Grunt.

#6
PrinceLionheart

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My problem with Jacob was that the devs, for whatever reason, stuck him with a Pistol/Shotgun combo. They should've given him a SMG or Assault Rifle instead of a Pistol. He does mad weapon damage, but the pistol is just crap on him. <_<

As a squadmate I found him most useful for a Sentinel Playthrough since he comes with both Incidenary Ammo (Which is perfect for an assault sentinel) and Pull (for warp explosions).

As a character, his drawbacks is he really lacks any hidden depths, or to be more exact, he refuses to share them. He's a by the book soldier and never opens up. Even during Squad chats he lacks any real quirks that could add to his uniqueness. Personally, I like him, but I also would've loved to see him loosen up some.

Modifié par PrinceLionheart, 29 juillet 2010 - 06:22 .


#7
Neuzhelin

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I like Jacob far more then Grunt.

Now, I know Grunt is very popular and Jacob is not, however from my perspective:

Grunt: A flat Krogan archetype with little personality, background or experience. (and this is a replacement for Wrex?!)
Jacob: Similar to Shepard (saved council, "ex"-Alliance working for Cerberus to save lives, contradictive in good ways as in complex).
Nevertheless I find both more or less useless in combat as none of them provide passive bonuses Miranda does and neither can compare dps wise with Samara/Thane.

Modifié par Neuzhelin, 29 juillet 2010 - 08:37 .


#8
Ahalazar

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Compared to Wrex, Grunt is a very simple mind. That's why Wrex is chief :P



Nice comparison, I really tend to agree.



As I have played Vanguard and Infiltrator I didn't find the bonuses Miranda gives really that useful. (Except uhm, ahem!)

Thane and Legion are the crazy damage dealers to be honest. Went with the 2 on the Collector's base and all I could do was enjoy the show.

If Jacob meets with an enemy point blank his damage is way higher than the other characters you mentioned, but that usually comes with very high risk.



PrinceLionheart wrote...



My problem with Jacob was that the devs, for whatever reason, stuck him with a Pistol/Shotgun combo. They should've given him a SMG or Assault Rifle instead of a Pistol. He does mad weapon damage, but the pistol is just crap on him. <_<


It would have definitely been true to the iPhone game if they gave him an assault rifle. Not to mention that during the last mission's cutscenes all of the Shepard's Eleven use assault rifle.

As a character, his drawbacks is he really lacks any hidden depths, or to be more exact, he refuses to share them. He's a by the book soldier and never opens up. Even during Squad chats he lacks any real quirks that could add to his uniqueness. Personally, I like him, but I also would've loved to see him loosen up some.




Hmmm, I like his personal mission because it shows his personality and his education from a very strong point of view. But I can see your point.

The bar crawl after the victory on the Citadel would have been superb to see for my Shep and Jacob (and the rest of the team).

#9
NICKjnp

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Neuzhelin wrote...

I like Jacob far more then Grunt.

Now, I know Grunt is very popular and Jacob is not, however from my perspective:

Grunt: A flat Krogan archetype with little personality, background or experience. (and this is a replacement for Wrex?!)
Jacob: Similar to Shepard (saved council, "ex"-Alliance working for Cerberus to save lives, contradictive in good ways as in complex).
Nevertheless I find both more or less useless in combat as none of them provide passive bonuses Miranda does and neither can compare dps wise with Samara/Thane.


For my "vanguard" squadmate I take Jack (after she is specked in squad warp ammo).  I usually pair her up with Samara or Thane.  When I bring Grunt then I bring Samara.
When I play vanguard I like to bring Jack and Samara.
When I play adept I like to bring Jack/Grunt and Samara/Thane combinations.
The only time I bring Jacob is on Mordin's recruitment mission.

#10
Ahalazar

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I tend to find Jack next to worthless. Biotic God is surely more powerful than the little girl whose only strength in in the cutscenes.

But that's beside the point. You're welcome to do as you prefer :D

#11
V0luS_R0cKs7aR

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Ahalazar wrote...
As I have played Vanguard and Infiltrator I didn't find the bonuses Miranda gives really that useful. (Except uhm, ahem!)


Vanguard, no. Infiltrator, yes - Miranda is crucial for getting one-shot Widow kills on Insanity, or even Hardcore at the beginning of an NG+.

But at lower difficulties, no, Miranda's 15% damage boost is not that useful. 


PrinceLionheart wrote...

My problem with Jacob was that the devs, for whatever reason, stuck him with a Pistol/Shotgun combo. They should've given him a SMG or Assault Rifle instead of a Pistol. He does mad weapon damage, but the pistol is just crap on him.


I have to agree. For comparison, Tali has the same weapons suite - which is ridiculous, because Jacob is supposed to be this hero soldier.

#12
NICKjnp

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Ahalazar wrote...

I tend to find Jack next to worthless. Biotic God is surely more powerful than the little girl whose only strength in in the cutscenes.
But that's beside the point. You're welcome to do as you prefer :D


Worthless?

#13
DrAbysmal

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NICKjnp wrote...

Actually... Jacob always gets knocked on his ass.  He is not a bad character.... but Grunt is more of a soldier than he is.  The problem is that they took away one of the squad powers during development that nerfed some of the characters.  Jacob originaly had pull and warp.  Those would have been a lethal combination... but they took warp away from him and gave it to Miranda.


Where did you hear this? I wonder if he would have been able to pull of warp detonations single handedly, Shepard can do it but squad member cooldowns are longer than Shepard's.

#14
Ahalazar

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DrAbysmal wrote...

Where did you hear this? I wonder if he would have been able to pull of warp detonations single handedly, Shepard can do it but squad member cooldowns are longer than Shepard's.


Yes he wouldn't be able to pull and warp on his own. He saw it on the video link he gave.

NICKjnp wrote...

Worthless?


Nice tactic that Gatsby's using there. She's useful against husks too if you can drop all their armor. Except those situations, she's not... still, I don't mind taking her on a mission.

She doesn't have the biotic power you see in the cutscene of her release now does she?

#15
Estelindis

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Ahalazar wrote...

Ladies? You don't like what you're seeing? Not enough Teal'c (SG1) in there for you? Black not good? Well shaped abs and pecs not a good sight?

Jacob's upper body and lower body are out of proportion with each other.  It looks very unnatural.

That said, having disliked the guy on my first playthrough, I'm actually finding him okay on my Insanity run.  I mean his personality, not his abilities.  (I don't take him in my squad, but that's because he's Cerberus; I don't take the very useful Miranda with me either.)  Once I lower my expectations a bit, and ignore FemShep's flirty voice, he's not too bad at all.

Modifié par Estelindis, 30 juillet 2010 - 12:44 .


#16
JaegerBane

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PrinceLionheart wrote...

My problem with Jacob was that the devs, for whatever reason, stuck him with a Pistol/Shotgun combo. They should've given him a SMG or Assault Rifle instead of a Pistol. He does mad weapon damage, but the pistol is just crap on him. <_<


Quoted for truth. I think they got their wires crossed a bit on him - his skill set and weapon set seem all out of whack. He carries Tali's weapons load but is supposed to be a combat specialist... yeah, that ain't gonna work.

Personally I think they should have given him an AR/Pistol combo. I don't really know why Bioware are obsessed with this concept that Biotics will always use shotties if they're going to use a gun. It works (somewhat) in shep's case, but not Jacob.

Still, incendiary ammo and pull are great skills to bring along for my Adept. Flames and explosions FTW.

#17
Ahalazar

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JaegerBane wrote...

Personally I think they should have given him an AR/Pistol combo. I don't really know why Bioware are obsessed with this concept that Biotics will always use shotties if they're going to use a gun. It works (somewhat) in shep's case, but not Jacob.

Still, incendiary ammo and pull are great skills to bring along for my Adept. Flames and explosions FTW.


Shotguns are best for vanguard given the range the battle is going to be at. Most enemies will come pretty close to your squad's position as such shotguns are a great weapon. You can use the handgun to shoot far-away enemies as the damage from that "magnum" is big!

#18
JaegerBane

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Ahalazar wrote...
Shotguns are best for vanguard given the range the battle is going to be at.


Indeed. The problem is Jacob is a Vanguard in name only.

#19
Bozorgmehr

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Ahalazar wrote...

Shotguns are best for vanguard given the range the battle is going to be at. Most enemies will come pretty close to your squad's position as such shotguns are a great weapon. You can use the handgun to shoot far-away enemies as the damage from that "magnum" is big!


Shotguns are useful with all classes, Vanguards only have to press one button to get into the best shotgun position. But Soldiers can use AR to run towards an enemy, blast his/her head off and run back - very effective plus Soldiers get a huge dmg boost with AR. Infiltrators can (and should) get the SG at the Collector Ship, Cloak - move in - put shotty in someones face and ... Sentinels with Assault Armor are going to love SG, Adepts and Engineers have Singularity and Drones to keep enemies occupied making it quite easy to get into shotgun range.

Shotguns are not that useful on squadies - a shame really :?  I love shotties :innocent:

#20
Ahalazar

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Bozorgmehr wrote...

Ahalazar wrote...

Shotguns are best for vanguard given the range the battle is going to be at. Most enemies will come pretty close to your squad's position as such shotguns are a great weapon. You can use the handgun to shoot far-away enemies as the damage from that "magnum" is big!


Shotguns are useful with all classes
Vanguards only have to press one button to get into the best shotgun position.
Soldiers can use AR to run towards an enemy, blast his/her head off and run back - very effective plus Soldiers get a huge dmg boost with AR.

With a 3 second duration and 50% time dilation running with this skill on doesn't sound brilliant, but the damage bonus should be pretty to see.

Infiltrators can (and should) get the SG at the Collector Ship, Cloak - move in - put shotty in someones face and ...
Sentinels with Assault Armor are going to love SG, Adepts and Engineers have Singularity and Drones to keep enemies occupied making it quite easy to get into shotgun range.

Never tried that with the Infiltrator and thisisme8 only took the SMG if i'm not mistaken for his QQC Infiltrator, heh
will surely try this.

Shotguns are not that useful on squadies - a shame really :?  I love shotties :innocent:

^^ at least they look kewl with the shotgun on their belt.

#21
Bozorgmehr

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Ahalazar wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Infiltrators can (and should) get the SG at the Collector Ship, Cloak - move in - put shotty in someones face and ...
Sentinels with Assault Armor are going to love SG, Adepts and Engineers have Singularity and Drones to keep enemies occupied making it quite easy to get into shotgun range.


Never tried that with the Infiltrator and thisisme8 only took the SMG if i'm not mistaken for his QQC Infiltrator, heh
will surely try this.


SG Infiltrator is - snipe enemies at long range and after softening their defenses move in (unseen with Cloak) and shotgun the leftovers to death. Be warned though, I hardly used SR anymore - the shotty was much more fun.

Here's a Cruc1al vid showing what SG Infiltrators can do : Solo Infiltrator with Shotgun on Collector Vessel  :devil:

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 04 août 2010 - 11:45 .


#22
Ahalazar

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Bozorgmehr wrote...
Here's a Cruc1al vid showing what SG Infiltrators can do : Solo Infiltrator with Shotgun on Collector Vessel  :devil:


Oh brilliant I love it haha, didn't see it before, thanks for the share :D

#23
NICKjnp

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Ahalazar wrote...

DrAbysmal wrote...
Where did you hear this? I wonder if he would have been able to pull of warp detonations single handedly, Shepard can do it but squad member cooldowns are longer than Shepard's.

Yes he wouldn't be able to pull and warp on his own. He saw it on the video link he gave.

NICKjnp wrote...
Worthless?

Nice tactic that Gatsby's using there. She's useful against husks too if you can drop all their armor. Except those situations, she's not... still, I don't mind taking her on a mission.
She doesn't have the biotic power you see in the cutscene of her release now does she?


Heavy Pull and warp would have been very easy to do.  12 second pull duration (with a 9 second cool down) and that leave plenty of time to hit them with a warp detonation.  I'm guessing that originally they had cool downs that were the same as Shepards but changed those as well.  Also... biotics used to affect shielded opponents as well but they changed that like they removed squadies powers.

#24
PrinceLionheart

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Well the new Shotgun makes Jacob a slightly more useful party member. To the very least he's now able to do more damage from longer ranges. Still thinking he should've had a SMG or AR instead of a pistol.