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[Khavos]

So I'm finally nearing the end of my first-ever playthrough, and I've browsed the Wiki and the forums enough to know what all's going to happen.  Trouble is, I'm having a hard time deciding which options I want.  I'd like to keep my PC alive for Awakening, but I think the Dark Ritual is a horrible choice.  Forcing Alistair to be the guy to take the bullet would just be a little more cowardly than I've played my character, so letting Loghain redeem himself seems like the best option.

Trouble is, I see absolutely no reason other than Riordan piping up to ever let it get to that point.  Loghain's been a douche, and it's difficult finding a motivation to let him live past the Landsmeet.  Punching Loghain in the face with an axe is just too tempting, but that means going for an Ultimate Sacrifice ending.  Which is, honestly, the way I think most Grey Warden stories ought to go; these guys exist to fight the Blight and kill archdemons, knowing full well what it costs them.  You'd think they'd be jumping at the chance to be a hero rather than politicking to get someone else to get killed.  

So help convince me that Ultimate Sacrifice isn't the only non-cowardly option.

[Zjarcal]

That depends on how you play your Warden.



I hate it when people say that Grey Wardens "should fulfill their duty and do the sacrifice". Sorry, but considering we didn't enlist in the Wardens voluntarily (it's either be a Warden or die in almost every Origin) I never ever felt that this was "my duty". Therefore, if there's a way out, I'll take it.



Is that a selfish mentality? Perhaps, but I really hate this whole duty thing. If being a Warden is something my character wanted from the beginning then that'd be a different case. As it is, I was either conscripted, pulled away from my dying parents (where I would've preferred to stay and die with them), corrupted with the taint, etc.



What's worse, everything about the organization is kept a secret to you until you complete the Joining. I realize why they do it (otherwise no one would join), but it still a bitter pill to swallow.



As for reasons why the DR is a "non-cowardly" option (are you serious?), I think about this way. If someone had to die to kill the Archdemon and there was no other way to do it, I'd be willing to step up since we're gonna die either way if we don't kill the bloody thing. But if there's a way to kill it and live, why on earth would I not choose that option. It's not like I think the DR is the "terrible" thing everyone paints it to be. I like Morrigan and trust her enough to believe it won't spell doom. And even if it does, at least I'll still be alive to fight it back in case it happens.

[Zjarcal]

As for letting Loghain redeem himself, think of all the good things he did prior to Origins. He is the reason Ferelden regained freedom from Orlais and is a hero to the people. Whatever mistakes he did, the man does deserve one final chance at redemption.



Of course, that's up to you.

[Khavos]

Zjarcal wrote...

That depends on how you play your Warden.

I hate it when people say that Grey Wardens "should fulfill their duty and do the sacrifice". Sorry, but considering we didn't enlist in the Wardens voluntarily (it's either be a Warden or die in almost every Origin) I never ever felt that this was "my duty". Therefore, if there's a way out, I'll take it.

Sure, you may not have had a choice, but neither have plenty of other Wardens, the Right of Conscription being what it is.  And once you're in, you're guaranteed a death fighting darkspawn pretty much no matter what.  Either way, you've been leading the Fereldan resistance to the Blight because nobody else could or would, and it just seems odd to suddenly decide, at the moment of truth, to hand over the reins to Alistair or Loghain rather than seeing it through.    

As for reasons why the DR is a "non-cowardly" option (are you serious?), I think about this way. If someone had to die to kill the Archdemon and there was no other way to do it, I'd be willing to step up since we're gonna die either way if we don't kill the bloody thing. But if there's a way to kill it and live, why on earth would I not choose that option. It's not like I think the DR is the "terrible" thing everyone paints it to be. I like Morrigan and trust her enough to believe it won't spell doom. And even if it does, at least I'll still be alive to fight it back in case it happens.

Well, I do think the DR's an extraordinarily risky choice.  A woman who has professed all along that survival and power are the only things that matter in life, in possession of Flemeth's true grimoire, suddenly acquires the soul of one of the beings that taught the Tevinters magic and led them to wage war against the Maker, causing the first Blight...left to her own devices.  Sure, it may turn out to be absolutely nothing in the long run, but I think a candid observer would say it's a roll of the dice.  And while from a gameplay standpoint you could reason that it's potential sequel material, from a character perspective, you'd be aware that Flemeth was alive and kicking far longer than the thirty year lifespan you've got left, and she didn't have an Old God soul to work with.  If the archdemons are in fact Old Gods, which is another story.

I like the angle of letting one of Feralden's great heroes in the form of Loghain redeem himself, but meh.  I'm told that Awakening is laughably easy with a high-level Origins Warden anyway, so I may just do the ultimate sacrifice.

[jpdipity]

You will not be forcing Alistair to take the final blow - he insists upon it. That is not cowardly.

I've never spared Loghain. My PC just has no reason to trust him and finds him too large of a threat to take a chance on him.

On the other hand, I see several reasons to spare him. He is a hero to most and very well-respected. We have no reason to think that his intent was ever malicious. Redemption is not totally out of the question. If he dies killing the archdemon, it preserves his legacy and Fereldan can still believe in the honorable death of one of its heroeos instead of the tragic fall of a hero who commited many questionable acts in poor judgement.

I also don't see the Dark Ritual as being cowardly or selfish. If the PC trusts Morrigan, then, why would the PC doubt her intentions? Why die if Morrigan has the tools to allow the PC to survive? It only becomes selfish if the PC does not trust Morrigan - then, the PC is doing it to survive despite thinking that there will be dire consequences.  I can also see some PCs agreeing with Morrigan that there is value in preserving the soul of an Old God.

Modifié par jpdipity, 29 juillet 2010 - 05:22 .

[balmung03]

Khavos wrote...

Trouble is, I see absolutely no reason
other than Riordan piping up to ever let it get to that point. 
Loghain's been a douche, and it's difficult finding a motivation to let
him live past the Landsmeet.

jpdipity wrote...

On the other hand, I see several reasons to spare him. He is a hero to most and very well-respected. We have no reason to think that his intent was ever malicious. Redemption is not totally out of the question. If he dies killing the archdemon, it preserves his legacy and Fereldan can still believe in the honorable death of one of its heroeos instead of the tragic fall of a hero who commited many questionable acts in poor judgement.

^This.  Plus, if you hadn't killed Cauthrien in Howe's castle and press more dialogue with her before entering the Landsmeet, you find that it's very possible that Loghain did all (or most) of what he did for the good of his country.  Yes, the idea of letting him join the ranks of the Grey Wardens didn't really cross my mind the first time until Riordan spoke up (though Riordan also led me to believe that the materials for inducting new members was taken from the vault and likely destroyed when talking to him in Howe's dungeon), the idea of letting Loghain redeem himself in some manner wasn't at all foreign to me.  The only reason why I tend to kill him off in my playthroughs is for RP purposes, letting Alistair stay in my party for the assault on the Archdemon or for being king.

[CalJones]

It's worth trying all the options, but then most of us here have played through the game multiple times. The Loghain "Redeemer" ending is actually my favourite (for most of the reasons jpdity states) and because I like the character and want to give him that chance.

The US is probably my second favourite but, indeed, it's a dead end (literally) if you want to play Awakening or any later DLCs that might crop up (we can but hope).

I have done the DR a few times but I do think it's a bit of a cop out and in reality, there's no way I'd risk it. I don't trust Morrigan so there's no way I'd allow her to unleash some god child on the world. However, some of my male characters think differently...or even are vain enough to like the idea of being a god daddy.

[ArawnNox]

Consider the further ramifications of the Ultimate Sacrifice. If I remember right, Riordan explains that in order to ensure the spirit of the Archdemon doesn't transfer to another darkspawn, a Grey Warden has to strike the final blow. The Archdemon's spirit enters the Warden and your soul, along with the Archdemon's is obliterated.

No going to the Maker's side. No returning to the stone. No final reward. No going to the fade. You cease to be on a metaphysical level. That's a truly horrifying concept. I can't really blame a Warden who prevents their (and Alistair's) death by taking Morrigan's Dark Ritual.

It does boil down to how you think your character would react. If your character believes that no sacrifice is too great, then they'll probably tell Morrigan to get lost and leave Alistair at the gates. Or, if your character is fighting the fight because "that's what Grey Wardens do." then you can take Alistair along and have him take the blow.

Then there's the conundrum of Loghain. From my perspective, the man is a bitter ****h*le. He went off the deep end in his obsession of keeping Ferelden safe. He's an overzealous patriot who has no scruples about what he does in defense of his nation. Once you trounce him in the landsmeet he finally comes around. Making him undergo the Joining makes a certain amount of sense from a pragmatic angle. It is pretty much a death sentence anyway, and if he survives, you get one of the most brilliant tacticians of the time (which I have seen very little evidence of, in the game or the books, but that's beside the point). Having him redeem himself by making the Ultimate Sacrifice is bordering on meta-game knowledge. It really depends on how pragmatic your main character is.

[Zjarcal]

Before I go on, I read another comment of yours in a different thread where you say that using blood magic would seem cowardly in the eyes of other Wardens. You do realize who the Wardens are? They are not heroes. They do whatever it takes to win. Duncan himself will tell you in the Mage origin that blood magic isn't forbidden by the Wardens.

Now back on topic, what does it matter if the other Wardens didn't have a choice either? Does that mean I should just embrace the Warden mentality just like that? I certainly won't. And how exactly are you handing the reins to Loghain or Alistair by letting them do the sacrifice? I don't understand what you mean by that. They volunteer to do it and you'd simply be allowing them to do it. But if you're really stuck in the mentality that the Warden "has to die to be the hero", go ahead. I won't try to convince you otherwise.

Now about Loghain, as balmung mentioned, the conversation you can have with Cauthrien prior to the Landsmeet if you don't kill her at Howe's state is really touching and grants you a better insight into Loghain's mentality. He really believes everything he has done was for the good of Ferelden. Of course he was paranoid about the Orlesians and it got to his head, but his intentions weren't malicious.

Whether I spare Loghain really depends on the Origin I'm playing. All of my characters are "redeemers" of sort (they like the redemption angle), but it would be hard for a city elf who saw her father locked in a cage to not kill the man who made that possible. A human noble would also have to be really open minded to spare a man who was in cahoots with her family's murderer.

But given what you have said it seems you've made your mind and that's fine. Let the story play out the way you want and if your character wants to die, then in the words of Morrigan, "die, if you feel it's worthwhile".

Modifié par Zjarcal, 29 juillet 2010 - 05:58 .

[Khavos]

Zjarcal wrote...

Before I go on, I read another comment of yours in a different thread where you say that using blood magic would seem cowardly in the eyes of other Wardens. You do realize who the Wardens are? They are not heroes. They do whatever it takes to win. Duncan himself will tell you in the Mage origin that blood magic isn't forbidden by the Wardens.

I never said blood magic would seem cowardly to the Wardens; I said
that using a blood magic ritual to get out of having to make the
sacrifice other Wardens have had to make in past Blights, a ritual with
questionable results at best for the future safety of Thedas, would
probably appear pretty cowardly to those out at Weisshaupt.   

Now back on topic, what does it matter if the other Wardens didn't have a choice either? Does that mean I should just embrace the Warden mentality just like that? I certainly won't. And how exactly are you handing the reins to Loghain or Alistair by letting them do the sacrifice? I don't understand what you mean by that. They volunteer to do it and you'd simply be allowing them to do it. But if you're really stuck in the mentality that the Warden "has to die to be the hero", go ahead. I won't try to convince you otherwise.

I suppose I am stuck in that mentality, yeah.  If Loghain and Alistair - and Riordan - all step up while the player Warden sits back and lets them, I'd find it hard to view the player Warden as remotely heroic as the three guys willing to do it. 

[Zjarcal]

 Then it's a good thing I never intended for my Warden to "be a hero"...

[Raigne]

I am of the same mentality as a couple other posters, even without talking to Cauthrien. Loghain absolutely betrayed the king, and he jeopardized the kingdom by trying to make a grab for the throne, but at no point did I ever think his personal motivation was simply power. He clearly cares for the kingdom to a point that it's left him a little unhinged. His daughter on the other hand clearly only cares about preserving her throne... which is why I don't feel guilty about throwing Hardened Alistair at Anora and replacing him with Loghain.

[mousestalker]

Raigne wrote...

I am of the same mentality as a couple other posters, even without talking to Cauthrien. Loghain absolutely betrayed the king, and he jeopardized the kingdom by trying to make a grab for the throne, but at no point did I ever think his personal motivation was simply power. He clearly cares for the kingdom to a point that it's left him a little unhinged. His daughter on the other hand clearly only cares about preserving her throne... which is why I don't feel guilty about throwing Hardened Alistair at Anora and replacing him with Loghain.

Agreed.

After Alistair made a smart comment about elves and mobs, had a stupid comment about my warden's wedding and was generally clueless about her family and her home, she dumped him. Then she set him up with Anora, spared Loghain and had him do the Dark Ritual. She figured the worst thing she could do to the royal bastard was give him a new family.

[Sarah1281]

I never said blood magic would seem cowardly to the Wardens; I said

that using a blood magic ritual to get out of having to make the

sacrifice other Wardens have had to make in past Blights, a ritual with

questionable results at best for the future safety of Thedas, would

probably appear pretty cowardly to those out at Weisshaupt.

You keep saying the Wardens at Weisshaupt would think things are cowardly like we're supposed to care what they think. They sit pretty up in the Anderfels and plot to gain political power and don't really concern themselves what Riordan feels GWs should do, namely: kill darkspawn and worry about the Blight. Just because the headquarters of the Order is located there does not mean that any of my Blight-ending Wardens give a damn about any of them.

[thegreateski]

Being heroic and courageous is overrated.

Modifié par thegreateski, 29 juillet 2010 - 08:15 .

[Sarah1281]

thegreateski wrote...

Being heroic and courageous is overrated.

I bet the people judging the Warden haven't done anything heroic or courageous themselves either.

Edit: And to avoid any misunderstandings, I mean 'people in DA' not 'people playing DA.'

Modifié par Sarah1281, 29 juillet 2010 - 08:24 .

[Khavos]

Sarah1281 wrote...
You keep saying the Wardens at Weisshaupt would think things are cowardly like we're supposed to care what they think. They sit pretty up in the Anderfels and plot to gain political power and don't really concern themselves what Riordan feels GWs should do, namely: kill darkspawn and worry about the Blight. Just because the headquarters of the Order is located there does not mean that any of my Blight-ending Wardens give a damn about any of them.

I've said it all of once, and referenced it only because it's the headquarters; it was meant to encompass Wardens everywhere.  The point was, if every Grey Warden tried to get someone else to take his or her place in slaying an archdemon, Blights simply wouldn't ever end.

[Sarah1281]

Khavos wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
You keep saying the Wardens at Weisshaupt would think things are cowardly like we're supposed to care what they think. They sit pretty up in the Anderfels and plot to gain political power and don't really concern themselves what Riordan feels GWs should do, namely: kill darkspawn and worry about the Blight. Just because the headquarters of the Order is located there does not mean that any of my Blight-ending Wardens give a damn about any of them.

I've said it all of once, and referenced it only because it's the headquarters; it was meant to encompass Wardens everywhere.  The point was, if every Grey Warden tried to get someone else to take his or her place in slaying an archdemon, Blights simply wouldn't ever end.

Why should we care what other Wardens who didn't help end the Blight think about it? We've kind of got more street cred than they do.

Edit: There are plenty of good reasons to turn down the DR. "Oh no, the other Wardens who just sat at the border waiting for us all to die might think we're...we're...cowardly! " is not one of them.

And what does 'if every Grey Warden tried to get someone else to take his or her place in slaying an archdemon, Blights simply wouldn't ever end' have to do with anything? You NEVER do that. Loghain/Alistair stops you and says 'I am begging you to let me do this instead of you and fully intend to die and do not in any intend to pass this job off to someone else' and the DR means that you can do the job yourself without dying.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 29 juillet 2010 - 08:37 .

[CalJones]

Well regarding who takes the sacrifice...

Riordan is the senior warden so naturally he gets first dibs. He's closest to his Calling - he's going to die soon anyway. Unfortunately, he'll die a lot sooner than he intends to with his silly Chuck Norris dragon riding act. ******. Next!

Loghain, likewise, is an older guy (going by Stolen Throne, the youngest he can feasibly be is 52. He may be a year or two older than that). Since the taint is more voracious the older you are, Loghain would be closer to his Calling than the Warden. He's also repentant and knows he has a lot to make up for so he almost begs you to let him do it. From a purely pragmatic point of view, better Loghain than the Warden, firstly because the Warden will be around longer (to rebuild the wardens in Fereldan, if that is what you intend), and secondly because he is the common man's hero and letting him redeem himself is good for morale.

Then we come to Alistair. I really can't see a logical reason to let Alistair do it - especially not if he is king. If you're female and romancing him, he won't give you a choice (so leave him at the gate if you want him alive). Because he's a ninja kill stealer, that way. Obviously there are roleplay reasons - the Warden is selfish, or thinks he will make a better Warden Commander than Alistair, and so on...but only if Alistair is not king in the latter instance.

[Khavos]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Why should we care what other Wardens who didn't help end the Blight think about it? We've kind of got more street cred than they do.

Who said you should care?  If your Warden's comfortable being the Warden that decided someone else was better off ending the Blight than him/her, more power to him/her.  Every Warden you meet in the game is foaming at the mouth to get a crack at being the guy who ends the Blight, rather than the guy who accompanied the guy who ended the Blight. 

Edit: There are plenty of good reasons to turn down the DR. "Oh no, the other Wardens who just sat at the border waiting for us all to die might think we're...we're...cowardly! " is not one of them.

Of course there are, and I've listed some of them myself.  However, there is still something to the notion that being the ONE guy not to try to jump on the grenade and save everyone else as it rolls into the bunker is not a good thing.  Or, to put it another way, who's the hero in that scenario, the guy who throws himself on the grenade to save his friends, or the guy who grabs one of his friends to use as a shield. 

And what does 'if every Grey Warden tried to get someone else to take his or her place in slaying an archdemon, Blights simply wouldn't ever end' have to do with anything?  You NEVER do that. Loghain/Alistair stops you and says 'I am begging you to let me do this instead of you and fully intend to die and do not in any intend to pass this job off to someone else' and the DR means that you can do the job yourself without dying.

What does it have to do with anything?  It has exactly what I said to do with something.  If everyone took the non-Ultimate Sacrific Warden's approach, Blights wouldn't end.  The non-Ultimate Sacrifice Warden is relying on someone else to step up. 

[Sarah1281]

But no one is saying 'I would never, ever do the US even if it were the only option' because people like that? They don't raise an army and head to Denerim to end the Blight, they ditch Alistair and head off to Antiva or Orlais. The reason you can choose not to do the US is because someone else literally begs you to let them do it (and if you say no it's yours to do does that make Loghain/Alistair a coward for not racing you to it?) or because you do the DR. The DR DOES end the Blight. It might cause problems down the road by the Blight is gone.

[Khavos]

CalJones wrote...

Loghain, likewise, is an older guy (going by Stolen Throne, the youngest he can feasibly be is 52. He may be a year or two older than that). Since the taint is more voracious the older you are, Loghain would be closer to his Calling than the Warden. He's also repentant and knows he has a lot to make up for so he almost begs you to let him do it. From a purely pragmatic point of view, better Loghain than the Warden, firstly because the Warden will be around longer (to rebuild the wardens in Fereldan, if that is what you intend), and secondly because he is the common man's hero and letting him redeem himself is good for morale.

The Loghain argument is actually the one that makes the most sense out of the "let someone else do it" approach.  It's giving him a way to pay for his sins, essentially.  I still couldn't make it through the Landsmeet without killing him, though, even with the metagame knowledge that he wasn't all bad.  Dude was just too damn douchey. 

[Sarah1281]

You know, all this 'do you want to be the ONE guy who doesn't step up to the plate' doesn't really strike me as a very good argument for the US being selfless. It's basically saying you're worried about your freaking image and you don't want everyone else to secretly think you're a coward.

[phaonica]

Khavos wrote...

CalJones wrote...

Loghain, likewise, is an older guy (going by Stolen Throne, the youngest he can feasibly be is 52. He may be a year or two older than that). Since the taint is more voracious the older you are, Loghain would be closer to his Calling than the Warden. He's also repentant and knows he has a lot to make up for so he almost begs you to let him do it. From a purely pragmatic point of view, better Loghain than the Warden, firstly because the Warden will be around longer (to rebuild the wardens in Fereldan, if that is what you intend), and secondly because he is the common man's hero and letting him redeem himself is good for morale.

The Loghain argument is actually the one that makes the most sense out of the "let someone else do it" approach.  It's giving him a way to pay for his sins, essentially.  I still couldn't make it through the Landsmeet without killing him, though, even with the metagame knowledge that he wasn't all bad.  Dude was just too damn douchey. 

If your character hates Loghain, chances are you won't let him live long enough to find out that a Warden is required to kill the Archdemon. And how is it more heroic and less cowardly to metagame him into taking the bullet for you, just to save your own butt?

[phaonica]

Sarah1281 wrote...

You know, all this 'do you want to be the ONE guy who doesn't step up to the plate' doesn't really strike me as a very good argument for the US being selfless. It's basically saying you're worried about your freaking image and you don't want everyone else to secretly think you're a coward.

It is possible to think of yourself as a coward and it doesn't have to have anything to do with what other people think of you.