Aller au contenu

Photo

So...about Loghain...


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
497 réponses à ce sujet

#226
phaonica

phaonica
  • Members
  • 3 435 messages

jln.francisco wrote...

phaonica wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

And while we're on that topic, what about everyone else? Don't they have the right to protect their citizens and country from the Blight? Loghain's actions weren't just harmful to Fereldan, they were harmful to every neighboring state.



Personally, I have a lot of trouble mustering up any sympathy for Orlais. They can fight the blight when it gets to their borders. Until then, they can gtfo.
 


You do realize that the 'bad guys' wouldn't be the only one's being consumed by darkspawn and allowing an entire nation's worth of resources, soldiers and arms to get swallowed whole is the same as rolling out the red carpet for the archdemon?


Maybe some other nation besides Orlais would offer to help Ferelden by then. If not, Orlais can wait their turn.

#227
Khavos

Khavos
  • Members
  • 961 messages

phaonica wrote...
I think that inviting Orlesian troops into the nation when there is a risk of invasion is a betrayal of the country too, and I don't think being king excuses it. 


Except that Blights are far more devastating than any occupation.  They last years, even decades, and entire cities, entire regions simply get wiped out; the Anderfels is described as a desolate wasteland because it's seen the brunt of two of them.  They're also fought with coalition armies, because coalition armies are needed; the Fifth Blight really was an anomaly, and anomaly that only happened because the archdemon apparently just got overconfident after wiping out all but two of Ferelden's couple dozen Grey Wardens at Ostagar. 

From the books, you could discover that the perceived threat form Orlais *is* real, and that Loghain has been dealing with it off and on since the Orlesian occupation ended. Our characters might not know about it, but Loghain does, and his mistrust against them is not unfounded.


And that's fine.  I understand his motivation, but that doesn't mean that his actions are justifiable.  He was involved in some extremely shady stuff, let's not forget.  Orlais was also in a tough position; they could send aid or not send aid, and be resented either way.  

Personally, I have a lot of trouble mustering up any sympathy for Orlais. They can fight the blight when it gets to their borders. Until then, they can gtfo.

 


It's really tempting to Godwin's Law that perspective, but I'll avoid it.  Instead, I'll simply point out again that in all previous Blights, one kingdom - especially a relatively small one like Ferelden - going it alone against a Blight simply didn't work.  Urthemiel basically overcommitted and lost a gamble, or else Ferelden would've been overrun awfully easily. 

#228
phaonica

phaonica
  • Members
  • 3 435 messages
I understand that from a Warden perspective that Ferelden's refusal of Orlesian reinforcements is potentially destructive not only for Ferelden but for the world. But from a Ferelden perspective, I don't see how anyone can expect Ferelden to be willing to potentially sacrifice their country for the greater good of the world.



And IIRC, the Orlesian occupation lasted longer than some blights.

#229
Khavos

Khavos
  • Members
  • 961 messages

phaonica wrote...

I understand that from a Warden perspective that Ferelden's refusal of Orlesian reinforcements is potentially destructive not only for Ferelden but for the world. But from a Ferelden perspective, I don't see how anyone can expect Ferelden to be willing to potentially sacrifice their country for the greater good of the world. 


I believe the phrase here is "to cut off one's nose to spite one's face."  Ferelden fears Orlesian occupation, so it makes complete sense to risk complete and utter destruction at the hands of a Blight to avoid that possibility?  Really?  Orlais doesn't taint or kill everything it's near, leaving nothing but a twisted blight-land behind it when it occupies. 

We know, from a metagame perspective, that Ferelden isn't going to be overrun by the Blight, but an in-game Ferelden wouldn't be sure of that.  There were no previous examples of a single small kingdom holding off the Blight, whereas Antiva got overrun in the Fourth.  It's stated in-game that the Fifth Blight was ended by the player before it even truly started.  They get much, much worse than simply taking over all of southern Ferelden.   

#230
phaonica

phaonica
  • Members
  • 3 435 messages

Khavos wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I understand that from a Warden perspective that Ferelden's refusal of Orlesian reinforcements is potentially destructive not only for Ferelden but for the world. But from a Ferelden perspective, I don't see how anyone can expect Ferelden to be willing to potentially sacrifice their country for the greater good of the world. 


I believe the phrase here is "to cut off one's nose to spite one's face."  Ferelden fears Orlesian occupation, so it makes complete sense to risk complete and utter destruction at the hands of a Blight to avoid that possibility?  Really? 


To an extent, yes. Sometimes you choose the risker option because the safer option is less acceptable. Most PC Wardens go into battle against the Archdemon with a Ferelden army that is smaller than it could be because selling elves into slavery is unacceptable.  Loghain was willing to sacrifice his own honor trying to balance the risks so he could continue to choose the riskier option. And Loghain *has* won battles that others thought were unwinnable.

#231
Guest_jln.francisco_*

Guest_jln.francisco_*
  • Guests

phaonica wrote...

Khavos wrote...

phaonica wrote...

I understand that from a Warden perspective that Ferelden's refusal of Orlesian reinforcements is potentially destructive not only for Ferelden but for the world. But from a Ferelden perspective, I don't see how anyone can expect Ferelden to be willing to potentially sacrifice their country for the greater good of the world. 


I believe the phrase here is "to cut off one's nose to spite one's face."  Ferelden fears Orlesian occupation, so it makes complete sense to risk complete and utter destruction at the hands of a Blight to avoid that possibility?  Really? 


To an extent, yes. Sometimes you choose the risker option because the safer option is less acceptable. Most PC Wardens go into battle against the Archdemon with a Ferelden army that is smaller than it could be because selling elves into slavery is unacceptable.  Loghain was willing to sacrifice his own honor trying to balance the risks so he could continue to choose the riskier option. And Loghain *has* won battles that others thought were unwinnable.


Honor? You think what he did was 'sacrifice' his honor?

Alright. Good to go. Bowing out of this discussion.

#232
Sarah1281

Sarah1281
  • Members
  • 15 280 messages
You're freaking out because you didn't like the word 'honor'? Would the argument really be THAT different if she'd used sanity/morality/soul/ethics/humanity/whatever else you feel he sacrificed?

Modifié par Sarah1281, 31 juillet 2010 - 03:15 .


#233
Guest_jln.francisco_*

Guest_jln.francisco_*
  • Guests

Sarah1281 wrote...

You're freaking out because you didn't like the word 'honor'? Would the argument really be THAT different if she'd used sanity/morality/soul/ethics/humanity/whatever else you feel he sacrificed?


I'm not freaking out. I've just realized there's no where for this argument to go because we disagree on to basic a level.

#234
phaonica

phaonica
  • Members
  • 3 435 messages
If you think he never had any honor (or like Sarah said sanity/morality/soul/ethics/humanity/whatever else) to begin with, then we do indeed disagree on a fundamental level.

#235
Guest_jln.francisco_*

Guest_jln.francisco_*
  • Guests

phaonica wrote...

If you think he never had any honor (or like Sarah said sanity/morality/soul/ethics/humanity/whatever else) to begin with, then we do indeed disagree on a fundamental level.


That isn't it but there's really no point in continuing this.

For the record, I don't think Loghain is 'as bad' as Howe but I try not to compare the evil of one man against that of another. Loghain was a fine leader in his day and minus those few years revolving around the Blight, I'm sure he was a fine example for other Fereldans. 

#236
phaonica

phaonica
  • Members
  • 3 435 messages

jln.francisco wrote...

phaonica wrote...

If you think he never had any honor (or like Sarah said sanity/morality/soul/ethics/humanity/whatever else) to begin with, then we do indeed disagree on a fundamental level.


That isn't it but there's really no point in continuing this.


Look I only even brought that up because I do think that sometimes there are reasons to go with the riskier option. I used the elven slavery as an example, because the PC warden is often willing to risk having a smaller army to protect the freedom of the elves. I felt that I should also acknowledge, before it was thrown back at me, that Loghain created that particular problem in the first place, because at that point he was no longer doing things that I might condone.

Modifié par phaonica, 31 juillet 2010 - 04:25 .


#237
Shatriya

Shatriya
  • Members
  • 41 messages
I realize if you read the books, as I did, you will have a rather different view. Near the end of The Calling, you read that Maric is trying to achieve peace with Orlais. Knowing this, it is reasonable to assume that is why Cailain had no issue with having Orlais help. It also suggested that Maric knew that Loghain would have a fit about it.



In short, Loghain would never ever be reasonable to having peaceable relations with Orlais on any level.

#238
Persephone

Persephone
  • Members
  • 7 989 messages

TJPags wrote...

So, Loghain's a good guy because he'll allow the country to be overrun by Darkspawn in order to save it from the POSSIBILITY that Orlais may try something?

That's kind of like refusing to jump overbaodr because you MIGHT drown, while the ship you're on is a raging inferno. Not exactly . . .well, smart . . IMO.

And keep in mind - those Orlesian legions and Wardens? They were INVITED in by the King. If Loghain factored that into his decision on what to do, well, deciding to do something that directly contradicts the will of your sworn sovereign is . . .ummm . . .oh yea, TREASON.

I really have yet to see a valid reason not to kill Loghain, although I'll admit, killing him in front of his daughter is harsh, but the game forced that.


That's a very one sided view.

1) He isn't a "good" or a "bad" guy, these b/w labels do not fit him. He had good reasons not to trust the Wardens after "The Calling", their secrecy did not help either. Neither did Cailan's foolishness.

2) Invited by a king who wanted to toss his wife aside (Loghain's daughter, no less!) to marry the Empress, so he could be an Emperor. Thus allowing Orlais to swallow up Ferelden like a vassal. Defying a "sworn sovereign" who betrays his own country by selling it to an ancient enemy... There is your other side of the "treason" coin.

3) Why not kill him? There are reasons to and not to kill him. Why not? He is a valuable ally. A great fighter and strategist. A hero, loved by the people. And my main reason? Compassion. I refuse to bow to bloodlust, vengeance or hatred. And I refuse to butcher a man in front of his daughter, just because a man child called Alistair will have a temper tantrum otherwise. :innocent:

#239
Khavos

Khavos
  • Members
  • 961 messages

phaonica wrote...
To an extent, yes. Sometimes you choose the risker option because the safer option is less acceptable.


So you truly believe that having every single living thing in Ferelden killed is a more acceptable option than allowing Orlais to help for Loghain?  There's nothing at all in the game aside from codex entries that would lead me to believe this guy's supposed to be some master tactician.  He comes off as an unhinged loon. 

#240
Persephone

Persephone
  • Members
  • 7 989 messages

Khavos wrote...

phaonica wrote...
To an extent, yes. Sometimes you choose the risker option because the safer option is less acceptable.


So you truly believe that having every single living thing in Ferelden killed is a more acceptable option than allowing Orlais to help for Loghain?  There's nothing at all in the game aside from codex entries that would lead me to believe this guy's supposed to be some master tactician.  He comes off as an unhinged loon. 


1) All HE (Not the PC) could base this (Whether there is a Blight or not) on was a glory-addicted king, a few members of a by then obscure order (Whose treason he witnessed) and tall tales. Why should he trust Duncan's assurances after "The Calling"? 

2) I completely disagree with the "unhinged loon" idea. But Bioware sure botched an acceptable transition from the books to the game. When it comes to Loghain, anyway. Talking to him after recruiting him reveals a lot of wisdom, however.

#241
Giggles_Manically

Giggles_Manically
  • Members
  • 13 708 messages
Talking to him at Ostagar reveals just how annoyed he was as well.



I however would not have betrayed the army at Ostagar, simply poisioned Calian off, and then wait for Redcliffe to get there. Calian while the rightful monarch is a ponce, who clearly was not the best person to be in charge after RTO, and all his talk about glory.





TEAM Anora!

#242
Khavos

Khavos
  • Members
  • 961 messages

Persephone wrote...

1) All HE (Not the PC) could base this (Whether there is a Blight or not) on was a glory-addicted king, a few members of a by then obscure order (Whose treason he witnessed) and tall tales. Why should he trust Duncan's assurances after "The Calling"?


Well, he could also base it on all those darkspawn he may or may not have noticed when retreating from Ostagar.  Even if he didn't believe it was a Blight, it's obvious there's still a pretty huge horde of Darkspawn in southern Ferelden.  His plan appeared to be to...I'm not sure, exactly.  Allow an entire army of his countrymen to be wiped out, allow all of southern Ferelden to be overrun with darkspawn, and...sell elves to make some money?  Short of throwing feces at everything he passed on the march back to Denerim, his plan couldn't have been any nuttier. 

#243
phaonica

phaonica
  • Members
  • 3 435 messages

Khavos wrote...

phaonica wrote...
To an extent, yes. Sometimes you choose the risker option because the safer option is less acceptable.


So you truly believe that having every single living thing in Ferelden killed is a more acceptable option than allowing Orlais to help for Loghain? 


Do you truly believe that having every single living thing in Ferelden killed is a more acceptable option than selling slaves for supplies and a bigger army?

There are other conditions to look at, other options to consider, and reasons to choose the riskier first option over the second.

#244
Khavos

Khavos
  • Members
  • 961 messages

phaonica wrote...
Do you truly believe that having every single living thing in Ferelden killed is a more acceptable option than selling slaves for supplies and a bigger army?

There are other conditions to look at, other options to consider, and reasons to choose the riskier first option over the second.


Those weren't the initial options he was faced with, of course.  He had a perfectly good army that he chose to slaughter for reasons that make utterly no sense.  

I have to say, I'm rather surprised not only at the number of Loghain apologists, but at how fierce they are in their defense of the dude.

#245
Giggles_Manically

Giggles_Manically
  • Members
  • 13 708 messages
Um Khavos you are aware that there were too many darkspawn for Loghain to risk charging correct?



Also if you listen to his party banter you really seem him differently especially with Wynne.

#246
Khavos

Khavos
  • Members
  • 961 messages

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Um Khavos you are aware that there were too many darkspawn for Loghain to risk charging correct?


So the king of impossible victories got skeeeeered, huh?  Wasn't it his plan to begin with? 

#247
Giggles_Manically

Giggles_Manically
  • Members
  • 13 708 messages

Khavos wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Um Khavos you are aware that there were too many darkspawn for Loghain to risk charging correct?


So the king of impossible victories got skeeeeered, huh?  Wasn't it his plan to begin with? 



Calian was a blond bimbo who wanted to be a hero, if you talk to Anora and Eamon they tell you this.

After spending five minutes around the fool I think most people would have a low opionion on him. Just read his letters to Celene in RTO and try to like him.

#248
Sarah1281

Sarah1281
  • Members
  • 15 280 messages

Khavos wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Um Khavos you are aware that there were too many darkspawn for Loghain to risk charging correct?


So the king of impossible victories got skeeeeered, huh?  Wasn't it his plan to begin with? 

His plan involved NOT getting overwhelmed by darkspawn that their scouts had no idea were there.

And why do people defend him so strongly? Because with Loghain it's hard to find anyone who says 'yeah, he was okay.' You either demonize him or you get annoyed at all the rampant demonization and defend him. Plus, we're kind of outnumbered here. A lot.

#249
TJPags

TJPags
  • Members
  • 5 694 messages

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Um Khavos you are aware that there were too many darkspawn for Loghain to risk charging correct?

Also if you listen to his party banter you really seem him differently especially with Wynne.



What exactly makes you think this?

The plan hatched by Loghain - as he told it to Caillan - is actually sound strategy.  We have - I'm pretty sure - nothing that tells us it wouldn't work.

As for him and Wynne, personally, he still seemed like a bit of an arrogant ass for the majority of RTO.

#250
Giggles_Manically

Giggles_Manically
  • Members
  • 13 708 messages
I cant stand the fact that people idiolize Calian:

He was an arrogant spoiled brat who ignored Loghain and Duncan

Was close to signing away Ferelden (RTO)

Was a glory seeking fool, who threw his life away when Kings dont fight on the front line with no heir.

Overall I have no sympathy for him.



Also Loghain does regret leaving those men behind, if you listen to his banter.