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[erilben]

It's says in the VO notes that before the battle Loghain's plan is to betray and get Cailan killed in the coming battle.

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Um Khavos you are aware that there were too many darkspawn for Loghain to risk charging correct?

Also if you listen to his party banter you really seem him differently especially with Wynne.

What exactly makes you think this?

The plan hatched by Loghain - as he told it to Caillan - is actually sound strategy.  We have - I'm pretty sure - nothing that tells us it wouldn't work.

As for him and Wynne, personally, he still seemed like a bit of an arrogant ass for the majority of RTO.

Except that there was a sudden surge of darkspawn that no one was expecting.

You found LOGHAIN bad during RtO? I thought Wynne's: "OMG, Cailan and Anora were so happy together and I could tell that they were in love despite likely not having ever seen them together and what do you know about it? You were only Anora's father and all their problems were your fault! Now let me accuse you of not giving a damn about all the people you didn't save while I...wait, what? Why didn't I use my magic to save Cailan? Didn't you see the darkspawn hoarde? How was I supposed to get through...oh. Well, it's been a long day. I guess I can stop personally blaming you for everything wrong with the world until tomorrow" was much more grating.

[Sarah1281]

erilben wrote...

It's says in the VO notes that before the battle Loghain's plan is to betray and get Cailan killed in the coming battle.

And Word of God says that while Loghain was indeed planning on confronting Cailan after the battle (possibly betraying him if you consider trying to change his mind on key issues after getting rid of his allies and potentially trying to remove him from the throne as a betrayal) and didn't decide to leave him until he saw the beacon lit too late.

[Khavos]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I cant stand the fact that people idiolize Calian:
He was an arrogant spoiled brat who ignored Loghain and Duncan
Was close to signing away Ferelden (RTO)
Was a glory seeking fool, who threw his life away when Kings dont fight on the front line with no heir.
Overall I have no sympathy for him.

Also Loghain does regret leaving those men behind, if you listen to his banter.

I don't idolize Cailan, I simply don't think Loghain was acting in a remotely sane manner in response.

Duncan he ignored, but Loghain he didn't; it was Loghain's strategy at Ostagar, not Cailan's.  Return to Ostagar doesn't state that he was close to "signing away" Ferelden, simply that he wasn't rabidly anti-Orlesian.  As far as fighting without an heir goes, Ferelden doesn't appear to follow a direct descent monarchy in the first place, so it doesn't really matter.

You're perfectly free to not sympathize with Cailan yet still realize that Loghain was an unimaginable douche who very nearly destroyed all of Ferelden. 

[Khavos]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Except that there was a sudden surge of darkspawn that no one was expecting.
 

Is this dialogue that you get if you recruit him or something?  Because I don't believe it's mentioned elsewhere.

[TJPags]

There was not a surge of darkspawn . . .at least, to me, that sounds like you're saying a new force of darkspawn attacked after the initial horde.  What happened was, there was more then they thought.  How much more, we don't know.

In any event, that was the fault of poor scouting, no?  And, as I get it, Loghain was the guy in charge of the military aspect of this campaign.  Yes, Caillan chose to meet the darkspawn at Ostagar, not to wait for Eamon's forces, but I get the distinct impression that it was Loghain devising strategy - after all, he was the guy with the experience, not Caillan, who I admit was essentially a moron.
So, Loghain's scouting didn't notice the additional darkspawn - miss on his end - and upon realizing there were more, he just leaves?  He set a force in front of Ostagar to attract the assault, while he hits them from the rear - again, this is sound military strategy - and then, when he sees there's more then he thought, he just up and leaves them to die?
And you can defend that?
Is it not possible that his attack could still have turned the battle?  Is it not possible that his attack could have allowed Caillan's force time to withdraw?  What makes all Loghain's defenders so sure that these are not the case?  Because I must have missed that part, so please, direct me to it.

And, let's not forget - to me, it sure seemed like he left as soon as he saw the beacon - NOT after moving into position and evaluating the situation.

[TJPags]

A note about "word of God" and the like:



I'm sorry people - if the game did not convey what they meant it to convey, that's not my (the gamer's) problem - it's theirs. Telling me what David Gaider or anyone else says they meant for Loghain - or anyone else - to do which was NOT explained or hinted at in game, is meaningless. We know what we see, hear, and read in game. We don't have the Word of God in our heads telling us that, althought Loghain said A, he really meant B.

[TJPags]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I cant stand the fact that people idiolize Calian:
He was an arrogant spoiled brat who ignored Loghain and Duncan
Was close to signing away Ferelden (RTO)
Was a glory seeking fool, who threw his life away when Kings dont fight on the front line with no heir.
Overall I have no sympathy for him.

Also Loghain does regret leaving those men behind, if you listen to his banter.

I don't idolize Caillan at all.  He's an idiot, plain and simple.

That doesn't mean I have to like Loghain, or what he did.

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

A note about "word of God" and the like:

I'm sorry people - if the game did not convey what they meant it to convey, that's not my (the gamer's) problem - it's theirs. Telling me what David Gaider or anyone else says they meant for Loghain - or anyone else - to do which was NOT explained or hinted at in game, is meaningless. We know what we see, hear, and read in game. We don't have the Word of God in our heads telling us that, althought Loghain said A, he really meant B.

I only brought it up in reference to someone else mentioning the VO notes saying his plan all along was to kill Cailan and I'd like to also remind you that all we know about Loghain's retreat was what Flemeth and Morrigan said about him quitting the field so we hardly saw the cutscene where he waited until the beacon was lit and then left. Our Wardens really don't know what happened or why but we did see more darkspawn than their should have been and in the Tower as well.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Cailan had no intentions of backing down or falling back. He pigeonholed Loghain into creating a plan for a battle that he could not win. Why do you think he is so determined to get Cailan off the front lines. Loghain isn't a rookie he is a great general. He knew even before the battle began it wasn't going to go well. Cailan truly believed that the mighty Duncan and the Grey Wardens would turn the tide no matter what. Loghain knew that wasn't the case.



In RtO I believe Wynne and Loghain have a conversation saying "I could of charged if you mages would of broke the lines". Wynne concedes this point to him and Wynne HATES Loghain.



Loghain thought preserving his army was worth more to Fereldon than it's King. Which from what little we know about Cailan seems to me was a reasonable choice. Loghain tried to save Cailan; Cailan killed himself in my eyes.

[TJPags]

Oh, but we DID see the cutscene, Sarah - we DID see him look at the Beacon, note it, and immediately order a withdrawal, even contradicting Ser Cauthrien to do so. Even she questioned his decision. As for the darkspawn in the Tower, his men were holding it - or supposed to be. So, yet another poor move on the part of the great commander - failure in scouting, failure to hold the tower where the beacon was to be lit, and decision to just toss his own strategy away, which literally was the death of the entire force with Caillan.



Basically, a clusterf*ck of errors on the part of the man who knows best.

[Giggles_Manically]

I dont care overmuch that people dont like Loghain. He does screw up and give into paranioa.



However he did save Ferelden, and Calians FORRZZ GLOORY HERP DERP! didnt exactly help matters overmuch either.

[TJPags]

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

Cailan had no intentions of backing down or falling back. He pigeonholed Loghain into creating a plan for a battle that he could not win. Why do you think he is so determined to get Cailan off the front lines. Loghain isn't a rookie he is a great general. He knew even before the battle began it wasn't going to go well. Cailan truly believed that the mighty Duncan and the Grey Wardens would turn the tide no matter what. Loghain knew that wasn't the case.

In RtO I believe Wynne and Loghain have a conversation saying "I could of charged if you mages would of broke the lines". Wynne concedes this point to him and Wynne HATES Loghain.

Loghain thought preserving his army was worth more to Fereldon than it's King. Which from what little we know about Cailan seems to me was a reasonable choice. Loghain tried to save Cailan; Cailan killed himself in my eyes.

Again, how do we know the battle was unwinnable?  How do we know that Loghain's charge could not have turned the tide?  How do we know his charge could not have, at least, allowed a portion of Caillan's force to withdraw, rather then being slaughtered?

I agree Caillan is a moron.  I agree he went against the advice of Loghain and Duncan in choosing the site and time of the battle.  But Loghain came up with a plan for the battle, which he then abandoned for spculative reasons.

Think of this - you're being chased by maniacal killers.  I tell you to run down the hall, and into the room on the left.  Once you do, I'll come in behind you and help you kill the maniacs.

You run down the hall, into the room, turn around.  7 crazed killers come in after you.  I come to the door and say, sorry, thought there were only 3, close the door and leave.  You die.

Am I a smart man for saving myself, or an *ss for leaving you to die?

[Giggles_Manically]

Loghain salvaged over half the army while Cailan's own vanity killed the other chunk of it.



Also how do you know the battle was winnable?

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

I thought Loghain says in the battle prep scene. I have sent men to the tower; then Cailan says no we must send our best blah blah two Grey Wardens. Loghain even wanted the mages in the tower plus his men, but the Chantry denied him that, and then Cailan insisting two Grey Wardens are great than a a group of men. I don't see how the tower is Loghain's fault he was going to send extra help there because of how important it was, and the Chantry/Cailan stripped it all away.



As for the scouting well I think that is in Loghain's favor of tactically retreating. Fergus' party MIA the guy in the woods all MIA but him, and another wounded scouting party in the camp, but glory seeker King Cailan would not retreat him and the mighty Duncan would turn the tide against evil.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Also; I'm like 90% sure DG said the battle was unwinnable, but you don't believe in the word of god, so I guess that doesn't matter to you :/

[TJPags]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Loghain salvaged over half the army while Cailan's own vanity killed the other chunk of it.

Also how do you know the battle was winnable?

I don't know it was winnable.  You don't know it was UNwinnable.  This is my point.  Loghain never tried to find out, he just tossed in the towel and left.

[Giggles_Manically]

TJPags wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Loghain salvaged over half the army while Cailan's own vanity killed the other chunk of it.

Also how do you know the battle was winnable?

I don't know it was winnable.  You don't know it was UNwinnable.  This is my point.  Loghain never tried to find out, he just tossed in the towel and left.

Yes because risking the ENTIRE royal army on a maybe is such an important thing to do.

[TJPags]

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

Also; I'm like 90% sure DG said the battle was unwinnable, but you don't believe in the word of god, so I guess that doesn't matter to you :/

I don't believe in the word of god when it contradicts info we get in game.

Loghain is set up in this game as the villain.  Look at the cutscene when he leaves - even his own people question his decision.  The plan was his.  he gave up on it for reasons we are NOT given in the game.  NO character we talk to, nothing we read, tells us that the battle was unwinnable.  While some characters we meet in the game don't believe Loghain is responsible, they instead believe that Grey Wardens betrayed the King, a claim we KNOW is not true, and which is put about by Loghain and his followers.

I'm not saying it was an easy battle here for Caillan/Loghain.  I agree, Caillan gave him a bad hand to work with.  But he layed out a plan that was sound.  Then he didn't follow through with it, was questioned by his own people when he made it yet over ruled them, then put out a story which we KNOW is a lie.

For the word of god to come back after we see all this, and tell us no, that's not exactly what we MEANT to say, well, sorry word of god, should have done a better job. 

Point me to something IN GAME that says the battle was unwinnable, please.

[Giggles_Manically]

Point me at something in the game that says the battle was WINNABLE please.

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

Oh, but we DID see the cutscene, Sarah - we DID see him look at the Beacon, note it, and immediately order a withdrawal, even contradicting Ser Cauthrien to do so. Even she questioned his decision. As for the darkspawn in the Tower, his men were holding it - or supposed to be. So, yet another poor move on the part of the great commander - failure in scouting, failure to hold the tower where the beacon was to be lit, and decision to just toss his own strategy away, which literally was the death of the entire force with Caillan.

Basically, a clusterf*ck of errors on the part of the man who knows best.

What I'm saying is that, while the player sees the cutscene, the Warden doesn't. The Warden is getting killed in the Tower at the time. If we aren't bringing metagaming Word of God into it then we can't bring metagaming cutscenes-we're-not-present-for into it either.

[TJPags]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Loghain salvaged over half the army while Cailan's own vanity killed the other chunk of it.

Also how do you know the battle was winnable?

I don't know it was winnable.  You don't know it was UNwinnable.  This is my point.  Loghain never tried to find out, he just tossed in the towel and left.

Yes because risking the ENTIRE royal army on a maybe is such an important thing to do.

RIsk - reward issue there.  You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.  Maybe Caillan would have died anyway, even if they won the battle.   And hey, I get why he left - no game if they win, after all.  But if you want me to believe Loghain might have done the right thing, give me some info to support it.

He made a plan - he went away from the plan for no good reason that we are given in game.

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Oh, but we DID see the cutscene, Sarah - we DID see him look at the Beacon, note it, and immediately order a withdrawal, even contradicting Ser Cauthrien to do so. Even she questioned his decision. As for the darkspawn in the Tower, his men were holding it - or supposed to be. So, yet another poor move on the part of the great commander - failure in scouting, failure to hold the tower where the beacon was to be lit, and decision to just toss his own strategy away, which literally was the death of the entire force with Caillan.

Basically, a clusterf*ck of errors on the part of the man who knows best.

What I'm saying is that, while the player sees the cutscene, the Warden doesn't. The Warden is getting killed in the Tower at the time. If we aren't bringing metagaming Word of God into it then we can't bring metagaming cutscenes-we're-not-present-for into it either.

See, I assume that Loghains leaving is something we saw from the Tower, after lighting the beacon and before the last darkspawn break in - maybe not the conversation between Loghain and Cauthrien, but the actual army leaving.  Doesn't Alistair, when we wake up by Flemeth, say something about seeing Loghain pull out?

Modifié par TJPags, 31 juillet 2010 - 11:30 .

[Sarah1281]

Loghain is set up in this game as the villain.

Loghain can still be the villain through his poisoning Eamon, selling slaves, putting a bounty on your head, working with Howe, allowing Zevran to be sent after you, ect. without Ostagar being winnable or for his decision to retreat having been a smart one.



As to the 7-vs.-3 killers analogy...you can be both. Could you and the other person take the three killers? Would you have been killed and failed to save the other person had you fought the seven? If so, it's still a dick move but a smart one that saves as much as can be saved.

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Oh, but we DID see the cutscene, Sarah - we DID see him look at the Beacon, note it, and immediately order a withdrawal, even contradicting Ser Cauthrien to do so. Even she questioned his decision. As for the darkspawn in the Tower, his men were holding it - or supposed to be. So, yet another poor move on the part of the great commander - failure in scouting, failure to hold the tower where the beacon was to be lit, and decision to just toss his own strategy away, which literally was the death of the entire force with Caillan.

Basically, a clusterf*ck of errors on the part of the man who knows best.

What I'm saying is that, while the player sees the cutscene, the Warden doesn't. The Warden is getting killed in the Tower at the time. If we aren't bringing metagaming Word of God into it then we can't bring metagaming cutscenes-we're-not-present-for into it either.

See, I assume that Loghains leaving is something we saw from the Tower, after lighting the beacon and before the last darkspawn break in - maybe not the conversation between Loghain and Cauthrien, but the actual army leaving.  Doesn't Alistair, when we wake up by Flemeth, say something about seeing Loghain pull out?

I don't believe he does say anything of the sort and I'm inclined to think that, given you have no idea what happened and have to ask Morrigan and Flemeth to tell you about Loghain's retreat, the darkspawn swarming in and attacking you kind of distracted you from staring down at the battle. Even if Loghain HAD charaged you had no reason to watch it when you had your problems.