[quote]Herr Uhl wrote...
[quote]Khavos wrote...
[quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...
There is no answer that fits "DUURR LOGHAIN IST EVIL!" either.
Gaider actually replied to a thread like this and said that Loghain wasent seeking power, or trying to usurp the throne. Things just went haywire on him and he lost control and his mind.
Also he says "Anora is the queen, and I command her armies" not I AM THE KING.[/quote]
Until I see Gaider's actual quote, I'll go with what, you know, happened in-game.
Which, by the way, includes Loghain declaring himself regent. Re-gent. Noun. A person who exercises the ruling power in a kingdom during the minority, absence, or disability of the sovereign.
[/quote]
this:
[quote]David Gaider wrote...
I haven't read this entire thread, so forgive me for offering some input on something with incomplete knowledge, but my impression is that there is a question about Loghain's intentions prior to Ostagar? If so, I can shed some light on what
my thoughts regarding it are. You can take them for what it's worth -- if there's no evidence of something in the game it's debateable whether that can be taken as truth, after all.
In my mind, Loghain did not go to Ostagar expecting to walk away from the battle. It was clear, however, that he and Cailan were already having profound disagreements -- mainly centering on Cailan's overtures to Orlais. Loghain was obviously moving to confront Cailan in some way, undercutting his access to allies and so forth. But did Loghain plan on
killing Cailan? No, I don't think that. I think he was doing what Loghain does, and trying to ensure that when that moment of confrontation with Cailan came the battle was already won.
That said, he had been fighting the darkspawn for some time in the south with Cailan there, and had already seen what Cailan was capable of. I think he made preparations prior to that last battle for the
possibility that he would have to walk away. He once made a promise to Maric that he would never allow one man to be more important than the Kingdom -- and in his eyes Cailan was recklessly endangering both himself and his kingdom. Whether that error in judgement condemns him right there is up to you.
There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together -- Loghain was committed, as it were, and after Ostagar doubly so. For all his faults, Loghain is not a man to waver once a decision is made -- good or bad. The only reason he gives up, in the end, is because he sees that there is someone else beside himself who can save Ferelden, someone who hasn't made the mistakes he has. The burden does not rest entirely on his shoulders -- which, yes, is how he feels.
Hope that makes sense, although I understand the topic of conversation here has gone in a lot of different directions.
[/quote]
And this
[quote]David Gaider wrote...
[quote]AndreaDraco wrote...
But what about the poisoning of Arl Eamon through Jowan? Wasn't this decided and accomplished before Ostagar?[/quote]
Yes, but this wasn't done in preparation for Ostagar. This was done in anticipation that Loghain and Cailan would have a showdown, and Arl Eamon would always solidly be in Cailan's camp. Like I said, Loghain is the sort of man that will ensure his enemies are defeated before they're engaged.
I know this isn't spelled out, but Eamon was never supposed to actually die from the poison. It would keep him sick for a long time -- certainly long enough for Isolde to try all their options and send out knights looking for remedies -- and then, once the confrontation with Cailan was done, Eamon could be given the cure. The elf was sent to Redcliffe to keep an eye on things and watch for news of Eamon getting worse, and if that happened then Loghain could send the cure immediately. Or, at least, that was the intention. If Eamon died in the name of keeping Ferelden safe from Orlais, Loghain wouldn't shed too many tears over it.
[quote]And, while we're at it, I'm completely wrong in thinking that Loghain and - especially - Uldred had a say in the Tower of Ishal being swamped by darkspwan? I don't why, but it always strikes me as odd that Uldred proposed to use the mages for light the beacon and that the beacon was the signal Loghain was waiting to go away.[/quote]
Either Loghain or Uldred wanted to be in control of the tower, so that they could make sure the beacon wouldn't be lit -- if it came to that. If the beacon wasn't lit, Loghain couldn't be blamed for not joining the battle in time. But, no, they had no control over the darkspawn and no way of ensuring that the tower was swamped. That was unexpected.
[/quote]
And this[quote]David Gaider wrote...
[quote]dan107 wrote...
However, I'm still curious -- when exactly
did Loghain make the decision to leave Cailan to die? I was always under the impression that Ostagar could've been won had Loghain charged when he was supposed to, but he just used it as an opportunity to get rid of Cailan. Is that not correct?[/quote]
The darkspawn forces were getting stronger with each engagement. Loghain knew that, and knew that it wasn't going to keep being so easy. I would say that he knew what might happen the minute Cailan made his strategy clear: rely on the Grey Wardens to win the day. In my mind, Loghain still wasn't
certain that he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley could have won the battle, he probably would have done so. Whether his belief that this couldn't happen was the truth or just his twisted perception of it is something you can decide for yourself. Certainly the darkspawn horde at the last battle was far bigger than anyone had anticipated.
The decision, I think, was made at the moment Loghain saw the beacon lit. He prepared for the possibility, as he prepared for everything, but I don't think he decided to go through with it until right then.[/quote]
And this
[quote]David Gaider wrote...
[quote]Asylumer wrote...
Does that mean the demon lied to Connor about keeping Eamon alive?[/quote]
Well, Eamon didn't
die did he?
[quote]Hmm.. so Loghain was prepared to ditch Cailan but didn't necessarily want to? What was Loghain looking for to decide on that?[/quote]
He was hoping that Cailan would see reason. He didn't expect him to, but was hoping he would.[/quote]
And this
[quote]David Gaider wrote...
[quote]Asylumer wrote...
If you don't mind answering another question.
You seem to imply that Loghain did poison Eamon beforehand, but also that he was with Cailan at Ostagar. I'm just wondering how that's possible given it's Jowan who does the poisoning, he was supposedly brought to Denerim for his execution, and said that Loghain himself appeared to offer him the deal. Was that a plot-hole created when the story changed regarding Jowan, or was Jowan always the one meant to poison Eamon? It seems rather impossible for Loghain to have met Jowan in Denerim while being at Ostagar for the battles.[/quote]
Err... I'm not sure I understand? There is a "passage of time" involved between the end of the origin story and the beginning of the plot at Ostagar. Loghain and the King's army was not in Ostagar that entire time.[/quote]
Are the gaider quotes from the thread I believe he points to,
this one.[/quote]
Herr Uhl, thanks for all those quotes. I'd like to point out one thing in particular in them, if you don't mind:
"I can shed some light on what my thoughts regarding it are. You can take them for what it's worth -- if there's no evidence of something in the game it's debateable whether that can be taken as truth, after all."
These are Gaider's THOUGHTS. His opinions. He goes on to say that, if there's no evidence in game of his thoughts, then even HE questions whether his opinions are valid.
This is why I question and have been fighting about the whole Word of God concept (the link to author is dead was an interesting read btw Sarah).
We are not arguing about interpretation, after all - what information means. We are arguing about what information is actually provided. You can only get to what it means if it's given.
In sum, then, the game does not tell us there were more darkspawn then expected.
The game does not tell us the battle was unwinnable.
The game does not tell us Eamon wasn't supposed to die.
Therefore, the opinion held by me - and others - that the number of darkspawn was not greater then expected is avalid.
The opinion that the battle was winnable had Loghain done his part is valid.
The opinion that he tried to kill Eamon is valid.
The opposing opinions are, I suppose, just as valid, as everyone is entitled to their own - but seems to me to go against the evidence.
Retour en haut
