Aller au contenu

Photo

So...about Loghain...


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
497 réponses à ce sujet

#326
Persephone

Persephone
  • Members
  • 7 989 messages

Khavos wrote...

Persephone wrote...
1) Whether more DS appeared or not, the signal was lit too late. Besides, the whole army's as well as Cailan's reaction at the sight of the HUGE DS army speaks volumes....


Yes, it does.  It speaks to the fact that the only individuals at the battle who'd had any experience fighting darkspawn hordes were the Wardens.  Again, Blights aren't common.  That they reacted isn't indicative of their being more than expected, it's indicative that it was the first time they saw an actual darkspawn army.  

 

2) Not only in Eamon's letter but it's also hinted at in the rest of the correspondence. The general tone of it... And Eamon's letter shows HIS agenda very nicely as well. Eamon, like Anora, uses the Warden and Alistair to further his political goals. Eamon may dress it up more prettily, but that's it.


Fortunately, Eamon's "goals" also include saving Ferelden from the Blight.  Loghain's included saving Ferelden from an entirely imaginary Orlesian invasion. 


Imaginary how? I don't believe Empress' Celene's sugary lines for a second. Do you REALLY think Orlais wasn't counting on the possibility of playing Cailan for the fool he was? Without Anora, Ferelden would be in a chaos anyway.

#327
Persephone

Persephone
  • Members
  • 7 989 messages

Khavos wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Though, of course, all of this has been explained as Gaider trying to save his beloved character by avid Loghain haters.


How so?  That doesn't really seem like an attempt to save him.  It basically confirms everything I've been saying.  


Are we reading the same quotes? Gaider's explanations are way more than one-dimensional "He is evil" posts, I am sorry.

#328
TJPags

TJPags
  • Members
  • 5 694 messages

Persephone wrote...

Imaginary how? I don't believe Empress' Celene's sugary lines for a second. Do you REALLY think Orlais wasn't counting on the possibility of playing Cailan for the fool he was? Without Anora, Ferelden would be in a chaos anyway.


But Loghain didn't know about what she wrote until he read the letters in RTO.  In fact, I don't think WE knew anything about that until we meet Riordan, and/or read those RTO codex's ourselves.  I remember being VERY confused my first time through - without benefit of RTO - when Loghain kept railing on during the game and at the Landsmeet about Orlais, foreigners, etc - I was a HN warrior, I kept thinking "who the hell is he calling a foreigner????"

#329
Khavos

Khavos
  • Members
  • 961 messages

Persephone wrote...
Are we reading the same quotes? Gaider's explanations are way more than one-dimensional "He is evil" posts, I am sorry.


As are mine.  One-dimensional "no u he's good!" posts aren't any better, either.  Gaider made it clear that Loghain attempted to put a plan in place so that he could abandon Cailan and half the army prior to the horde's numbers ever being known; Eamon was poisoned before Ostagar; Howe was in on the fact that Loghain was going to attempt a coup before Howe moved on the Couslands. 

The argument in defense of Loghain boils down, "He believed he was doing the right thing."  If we take that as a basis for exonerating him, we could exonerate every brutal dictator in history.

#330
Khavos

Khavos
  • Members
  • 961 messages

Persephone wrote...
Imaginary how?


Here's how, in two easy yes/no questions:

Was there a Blight ravaging southern Ferelden?

Was there an Orlesian invasion anywhere in Ferelden?

Generally speaking, invading armies don't stop at the border when they're told they're not welcome, as the chevaliers with Riordan did.  They cease to be invading armies when they don't, you know, invade. 

#331
Giggles_Manically

Giggles_Manically
  • Members
  • 13 708 messages
The Orlesians werent turned back.



The Orlesian wardens and their support troops were.

#332
TJPags

TJPags
  • Members
  • 5 694 messages

Giggles_Manically wrote...

The Orlesians werent turned back.

The Orlesian wardens and their support troops were.



What other Orlesians WERE there???????????????????????????????????

#333
Giggles_Manically

Giggles_Manically
  • Members
  • 13 708 messages
Khavos claim was:

The Orlesian Army was turned back, which they werent.



The Orlesian Grey Wardens and their support troops who are seperate from the National army were the ones who were turned back.



Also this Loghain hate is funny,since even with Gaider writing what happened people plug their ears and say "MY VERSION IS CANON!"

#334
TJPags

TJPags
  • Members
  • 5 694 messages

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Khavos claim was:
The Orlesian Army was turned back, which they werent.

The Orlesian Grey Wardens and their support troops who are seperate from the National army were the ones who were turned back.


Exactly my point - and I think Zhavos' too - there WAS no other Orlesian army, invading or otherwise.

Also this Loghain hate is funny,since even with Gaider writing what happened people plug their ears and say "MY VERSION IS CANON!"


No, As I pointed out before, Gaider wrote his OPINION, and admitted that, if there was no evidence in the game to support it, his opinion was NOT canon.

#335
Sarah1281

Sarah1281
  • Members
  • 15 280 messages
My thinking on the matter is this: Just because the Orlesian Army did not invade did not mean that it was not a valid possibility. For all we know Loghain's preemptive actions did deter them from just this. The fact that they so easily accepted waiting until Ferelden destroyed themselves could support the possibility that they intended to stop the Blight once Ferelden fell and then keep the land after the Blight was over as they and other countries have been known to do in the past.

#336
Sarah1281

Sarah1281
  • Members
  • 15 280 messages

Exactly my point - and I think Zhavos' too - there WAS no other Orlesian army, invading or otherwise.

You're wrong on this point. The Grey Wardens sitting at the border had four legions of chevaliers. Loghain's greatest victory at River Dane was against an ARMY of two legions. The GW wanted to bring double this amount. Granted, it would have been reallly useful to have those kinds of numbers againt the darkspawn and that's not to say they planned to invade or conquer ANYTHING but you can't deny it was an army.

#337
Giggles_Manically

Giggles_Manically
  • Members
  • 13 708 messages
Anyone who thinks that after RTO Celene wasent up to something with Calian is a Wynne.



To his Majesty, King Cailan of Ferelden:

My Warden-Commander assures me that we face a Blight. This thing threatens us both, and we must work together to fight it, lest it devour all. Our two nations have not had a happy history, but that is all it is -- history. It is the future that is at stake now. Let us put aside our father's disagreements so that we may secure a future for both our countries.

My Chevaliers stand ready and will accompany the Grey Wardens of Orlais to Ferelden. At your word the might of Orlais will march to reinforce the Ferelden forces.

Sincerely, Empress Celene I

- "An official letter from Empress Celene I of Orlais to King Cailan of Ferelden.''



Your Majesty,

My men will arrive as soon as possible to bolster your forces. Maker willing, this Blight will be ended before it has begun.

Cailan, I beseech you, as your uncle, not to join the Grey Wardens on the Field. You cannot afford to take this risk. Ferelden cannot afford it. Let me remind you again that you do not have an heir. Your death--and it pains me even to think of it--would plunge Ferelden into chaos.

And yes, perhaps when this is over you will allow me to bring up the subject of your heir. While a son from both the Theirin and Mac Tir lines would unite Ferelden like no other, we must accept that perhaps this can never be. The queen approaches her thirtieth year and her ability to give you a child lessens with each passing month. I submit to you again that it might be time to put Anora aside. We parted harshly the last time I spoke of this, but it has been a full year since then and nothing has changed.

-Please, nephew, consider my words, and Andraste's grace be with you.

--A letter from Arl Eamon to King Cailan



(This letter appears to have been crumpled then carefully smoothed out and folded again)

Cailan,

The visit to Ferelden will be postponed indefinitely, due to the darkspawn problem. You understand, of course? The darkspawn have odd timing, don't they? Let us deal with them first. Once that is done we can further discuss a permanent alliance between Orlais and Ferelden.

-- "A note written in an uncharacteristally familiar tone from Empress Celene to King Cailan"



The part about PERMENAT ALLIANCE stands out. In medieval time frames alliances between nations indicate marriage, coupled with the second letter it shows that it is quite possible that Celene was going to marry Cailian.



Also Eamon's letter indicates that even he knew that Calian was going to be on the front lines well before the fight, and that he had a good chance of dying there.



Overall the evidence goes both ways and is open to interpetation but TST, RTO, sparing Loghain, and The Calling dont paint loghain as a power mad individual only one who went to far trying to protect the country.



Also Maric makes Loghain swear to protect fereldan from anyone or thing that threatens it. I guess Loghain took Maric's word to stongly.

#338
TJPags

TJPags
  • Members
  • 5 694 messages

Sarah1281 wrote...


Exactly my point - and I think Zhavos' too - there WAS no other Orlesian army, invading or otherwise.

You're wrong on this point. The Grey Wardens sitting at the border had four legions of chevaliers. Loghain's greatest victory at River Dane was against an ARMY of two legions. The GW wanted to bring double this amount. Granted, it would have been reallly useful to have those kinds of numbers againt the darkspawn and that's not to say they planned to invade or conquer ANYTHING but you can't deny it was an army.



I said no OTHER army - ie, nothing besides what was with the wardens, which Giggles called their support troops, separate from the Orlesian army.  There is no other Orlesian army that we ever become aware of, in game or through Word of God.

So, since the only army we know of stopped at the border, whether you call it the warden support troops or the Orlesian army, it NEVER INVADED and never even took a hostile act!!  It was invited in by the King, and stopped when told not to come in.

My thinking on the matter is this: Just because the Orlesian Army did not invade did not mean that it was not a valid possibility. For all we know Loghain's preemptive actions did deter them from just this. The fact that they so easily accepted waiting until Ferelden destroyed themselves could support the possibility that they intended to stop the Blight once Ferelden fell and then keep the land after the Blight was over as they and other countries have been known to do in the past.


I actually agree with this, in principle.  Certainly feasible that Orlais may have been thinking of invading post-blight.  But then, Orlais MAY have been thinking of invading ever since they were kicked out.  They may decide to invade 30 years after the blight.  Doesn't change the fact that there was never any actual invasion.

#339
Giggles_Manically

Giggles_Manically
  • Members
  • 13 708 messages
You just said a whack load of maybes and possibles up there TJ.

#340
Sarah1281

Sarah1281
  • Members
  • 15 280 messages
I disagree that Cailan was going to marry Celene and Eamon certainly wouldn't have been in support of this plan. He wants Anora put aside as she was, in her late-twenties, a risk for infertility in his mind. Celene took the throne in the Calling, I believe. Plus, Cailan 'parted angrily' with Eamon the last time he mentioned it and I think that his refusing to allow Redcliffe troops at Ostagar makes more sense if you consider that he knew Eamon was harping on that again, he was already fighting with Loghain about Anora, and Loghain was Anora's father so adding Eamon advocating putting Anora to the side would be a recipe for disaster.



Cailan marrying a non-Celene Orlesian noblewoman or having another noble marry a non-Celene Orlesian noble as one way to get a permanent alliance is possible, I suppose, but I really don't think Cailan was planning on putting Anora aside. It would be too much of a risk given her influence and unofficial ruling and Loghain's power as Teyrn and hero. Having another noble like, I don't know, Teagan or acknowleding Alistair and having him marry someone is far more likely if marriage was involved, imo.

#341
TJPags

TJPags
  • Members
  • 5 694 messages

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Anyone who thinks that after RTO Celene wasent up to something with Calian is a Wynne.

To his Majesty, King Cailan of Ferelden:
My Warden-Commander assures me that we face a Blight. This thing threatens us both, and we must work together to fight it, lest it devour all. Our two nations have not had a happy history, but that is all it is -- history. It is the future that is at stake now. Let us put aside our father's disagreements so that we may secure a future for both our countries.
My Chevaliers stand ready and will accompany the Grey Wardens of Orlais to Ferelden. At your word the might of Orlais will march to reinforce the Ferelden forces.
Sincerely, Empress Celene I
- "An official letter from Empress Celene I of Orlais to King Cailan of Ferelden.''

Your Majesty,
My men will arrive as soon as possible to bolster your forces. Maker willing, this Blight will be ended before it has begun.
Cailan, I beseech you, as your uncle, not to join the Grey Wardens on the Field. You cannot afford to take this risk. Ferelden cannot afford it. Let me remind you again that you do not have an heir. Your death--and it pains me even to think of it--would plunge Ferelden into chaos.
And yes, perhaps when this is over you will allow me to bring up the subject of your heir. While a son from both the Theirin and Mac Tir lines would unite Ferelden like no other, we must accept that perhaps this can never be. The queen approaches her thirtieth year and her ability to give you a child lessens with each passing month. I submit to you again that it might be time to put Anora aside. We parted harshly the last time I spoke of this, but it has been a full year since then and nothing has changed.
-Please, nephew, consider my words, and Andraste's grace be with you.
--A letter from Arl Eamon to King Cailan

(This letter appears to have been crumpled then carefully smoothed out and folded again)
Cailan,
The visit to Ferelden will be postponed indefinitely, due to the darkspawn problem. You understand, of course? The darkspawn have odd timing, don't they? Let us deal with them first. Once that is done we can further discuss a permanent alliance between Orlais and Ferelden.
-- "A note written in an uncharacteristally familiar tone from Empress Celene to King Cailan"

The part about PERMENAT ALLIANCE stands out. In medieval time frames alliances between nations indicate marriage, coupled with the second letter it shows that it is quite possible that Celene was going to marry Cailian.

Also Eamon's letter indicates that even he knew that Calian was going to be on the front lines well before the fight, and that he had a good chance of dying there.

Overall the evidence goes both ways and is open to interpetation but TST, RTO, sparing Loghain, and The Calling dont paint loghain as a power mad individual only one who went to far trying to protect the country.

Also Maric makes Loghain swear to protect fereldan from anyone or thing that threatens it. I guess Loghain took Maric's word to stongly.



Of COURSE she was up to something - my impession is that she was contemplating a marriage to Caillan after he divorced Anora, who, after all, can't have kids.  Not unusal for a king tro put aside a barren wife.  But there's nothing to indicate that this marriage alliance would mean Ferelden giving up it's independence.   We have no idea what the marriage contract may have povided.

I also have never tried to indicate Loghain didn't care for Ferelden.  Rather, I indicate my opinion that he's acting on fantasy information, makes a power grab to "protect" ferelden from imaginary threats, and actually weakens the country rather then uniting it against the threat it IS facing.

#342
FiliusMartis

FiliusMartis
  • Members
  • 300 messages
I have several qualms with Loghain. I understand that war demands sacrifice, but I also believe as much as can be done to limit that sacrifice should be done. Word of God, as we're calling it, has also stated that Loghain wanted his men and/or Uldred in the tower in order to prevent the signal from being lit. This alludes to the idea that he had a carefully laid out plan to betray Cailan and walk away from it without having to bear the responsibility of that action. The defense of that action usually hinges on him preserving the army. My problem with this is that during the entire course of the game (is it not 2 years?) Loghain does all but nothing with this army to stem the tide of the Blight. I understand this is a game mechanic, but still. If the horde was massively bigger than he expected and he turned his army away to preserve it as a defense, then he should have realized that the darkspawn were a threat and began taking steps to utilize that army. The only thing I recall is seeing a handful of men trying to contact the dwarfs.



I would also be more lenient with Loghain if he didn't tell such blatant lies. I assume that many of the Banns are not new to war; they would, perhaps, understand if Loghain explained that they were suddenly overwhelmed by an unexpectedly huge horde and fled to preserve the army. But no, he touts that the wardens betrayed the king, simply to discredit and avoid blame.



The poisoning of Arl Eamon and, I believe, the partnership with Howe also occurred before Ostagar. Clearly, Loghain was planning some sort of treason against King Cailan, violent or otherwise. In my opinion, the most probably and evidenced motive for this is Anora's position being jeopardized. We find out that, shortly before the events of Ostagar, Cailan and Loghain had an argument about something "the queen did or didn't do." The only evidence we have of difficulty between Anora and Cailan is that she didn't conceive an heir. Perhaps it can be blamed on Cailan's consideration of allying with Orlais, but even so, it is not a general's position to dictate whom a king forms alliances with. Furthermore, it's not unheard of in the real world for newly independent nations to ally with much stronger ones against a common goal without being completely overrun.



Now that I've mentioned Anora, I must ask: if she was really ruling for five years and was so competent then why did Loghain step in as reagent? Why not continue acting as general, and perhaps advisor, and let Anora rule on her own? We know from the Landsmeet that a woman can rule as queen on her own, so Loghain instituting himself as essentially king appears to be nothing short of a power play.



Wow.. long post. D= Sorry; I'll get to the point. Loghain's behavior is categorized by shady activity: planned treason, lies, and a power play against his own daughter. While I understand some of what he did, as a warden I usually don't invite him into our order if for no other reason than I could never trust him. Riordan says that you can't stop being a warden, but Alistair turns and does just that. If the player warden is evidence of anything, it's that being a warden doesn't keep you out of politics- Loghain could still prove disastrous. I would reconsider (and love) if there were an option to spare him on the condition that he allocute to everything he did in front of the Landsmeet, but alas, no such option.



As for Alistair, I always felt guilty having him do the sacrifice. However, he IS the senior warden, so it should technically fall to him. Furthermore, his little Landsmeet temper makes me question both his abilities as king and his abilities as the warden commander rebuilding the order. Dark ritual ftw!

#343
TJPags

TJPags
  • Members
  • 5 694 messages

Giggles_Manically wrote...

You just said a whack load of maybes and possibles up there TJ.



In the second part of my post, yes, I did.  And it's exactly those "maybe" and "possibles" that are the justification for Loghain leaving the field at Ostagar, poisoning Eamon, allying with Howe, etc.

So, if my maybes are a problem, shouldn't you look a little harder at Loghain's motivations?

#344
Khavos

Khavos
  • Members
  • 961 messages

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Also this Loghain hate is funny,since even with Gaider writing what happened people plug their ears and say "MY VERSION IS CANON!"


Gaider's version has Loghain attempting to put a plan in place to be able to leave Cailan to die at Ostagar in order to take power if he chooses to do so, with his confederates knowing that he would be attempting a coup - Eamon poisoned prior to Ostagar, Howe moving against the Couslands, etc..  Gaider also doesn't say that Ostagar was unwinnable.  How does my version conflict with his, exactly?

#345
Giggles_Manically

Giggles_Manically
  • Members
  • 13 708 messages

TJPags wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

You just said a whack load of maybes and possibles up there TJ.



In the second part of my post, yes, I did.  And it's exactly those "maybe" and "possibles" that are the justification for Loghain leaving the field at Ostagar, poisoning Eamon, allying with Howe, etc.

So, if my maybes are a problem, shouldn't you look a little harder at Loghain's motivations?


So I cant use maybes to defend my position, yet your entire argument is based around them?

#346
TJPags

TJPags
  • Members
  • 5 694 messages

Giggles_Manically wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

You just said a whack load of maybes and possibles up there TJ.



In the second part of my post, yes, I did.  And it's exactly those "maybe" and "possibles" that are the justification for Loghain leaving the field at Ostagar, poisoning Eamon, allying with Howe, etc.

So, if my maybes are a problem, shouldn't you look a little harder at Loghain's motivations?


So I cant use maybes to defend my position, yet your entire argument is based around them?



You're losing me here.

Loghain's actions are based on those maybe's I mentioned above, yes?

You defend Loghain's actions, yes?

I've made my opinion based on the facts we are given, yes?

So how am I basing my argument on maybe's?

#347
Giggles_Manically

Giggles_Manically
  • Members
  • 13 708 messages

Khavos wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Also this Loghain hate is funny,since even with Gaider writing what happened people plug their ears and say "MY VERSION IS CANON!"


Gaider's version has Loghain attempting to put a plan in place to be able to leave Cailan to die at Ostagar in order to take power if he chooses to do so, with his confederates knowing that he would be attempting a coup - Eamon poisoned prior to Ostagar, Howe moving against the Couslands, etc..  Gaider also doesn't say that Ostagar was unwinnable.  How does my version conflict with his, exactly?


A) In RTO the Survior says that even Calian feared the battle was unwinnable
B) Gaider said Loghain didnt authorize the killing of the Couslands by Howe
C) Finally you can run around and do the rest of the main missions before healing Eamon, showing that the poison only made him ill and didnt kill him. There are plenty of poisons that are a gurantee to kill people.

Also Loghain didnt take power, since Anora is still the Queen, he calls her that, and the Landsmeet still recognizes her as the monarch as does Eamon.

#348
Sarah1281

Sarah1281
  • Members
  • 15 280 messages

I would also be more lenient with Loghain if he didn't tell such blatant lies. I assume that many of the Banns are not new to war; they would, perhaps, understand if Loghain explained that they were suddenly overwhelmed by an unexpectedly huge horde and fled to preserve the army. But no, he touts that the wardens betrayed the king, simply to discredit and avoid blame.

I think he did believe that the Wardens were traitors given he doesn't know that the tower was overwhelmed, only that it took too long for the Wardens to light the beacon and for all he knew the Wardens were trying to lead his arm to their deeaths.



Now that I've mentioned Anora, I must ask: if she was really ruling for five years and was so competent then why did Loghain step in as reagent? Why not continue acting as general, and perhaps advisor, and let Anora rule on her own? We know from the Landsmeet that a woman can rule as queen on her own, so Loghain instituting himself as essentially king appears to be nothing short of a power play.

Anora may have been ruling the country, but Cailan was regent and she was just the consort. Had he not declared himself regent, there is no guarentee that his daughter would have been able to succeed in getting herself declared Queen Regent in her own right.



Riordan says that you can't stop being a warden, but Alistair turns and does just that. If the player warden is evidence of anything, it's that being a warden doesn't keep you out of politics- Loghain could still prove disastrous. I would reconsider (and love) if there were an option to spare him on the condition that he allocute to everything he did in front of the Landsmeet, but alas, no such option.

By 'you can't stop being a Warden' Riordan seems to just mean that physically you'll always have the taint in you as all he says is that no matter what Alistair does or Loghain does, if they live long enough they'll still end up in Orzammar for their Calling.

#349
TJPags

TJPags
  • Members
  • 5 694 messages
A word about Anora as Queen and Loghain as regent:



Anora's authority stems from her marriage to Caillan - she was not Queen in her own right before they were married, she gained the title when they were married. Often, such authority is lost when the monarch dies - ie, when Caillan died, Anora lost any authrity she may have had, and a new King would be chosen.



Loghain, of course, had no right to 'name' himself anything - he wasn't King, or Queen, after all. So he exceeded his authority by naming himself regent for a Queen who, herself, had lost her authority to act as Queen on the death of her husband.



This, in my mind, is another strike against Loghain - he circumvents the right of succession by essentially using his conveniently still intact army to support Anora's remaining on the throne when she has no right to it.

#350
FiliusMartis

FiliusMartis
  • Members
  • 300 messages

Sarah 1281 wrote...

I think he did believe that the Wardens were traitors given he doesn't know that the tower was overwhelmed, only that it took too long for the Wardens to light the beacon and for all he knew the Wardens were trying to lead his arm to their deeaths.


That is a consideration, but Loghain's own men were in the tower as well. And, as I mentioned, Loghain wanted his men there to see that the signal did not get let so he could walk away. He used the wardens as a cop out.

Anora may have been ruling the country, but Cailan was regent and she was just the consort. Had he not declared himself regent, there is no guarentee that his daughter would have been able to succeed in getting herself declared Queen Regent in her own right.


She was not consort; she was his Queen and his wife. There's quite a big difference. Loghain seems to use Anora to institute himself into the throne.

By 'you can't stop being a Warden' Riordan seems to just mean that physically you'll always have the taint in you as all he says is that no matter what Alistair does or Loghain does, if they live long enough they'll still end up in Orzammar for their Calling.


Riordan says this specifically in response to "but he's not even loyal to us!" implying that his position is that loyalty to the wardens is irrelevant. My position is otherwise- just because Loghain will have some dreams and get the Calling some day doesn't mean that he can't be a backstabbing little nuisance in the meantime.