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[Giggles_Manically]

TJPags wrote...

A word about Anora as Queen and Loghain as regent:

Anora's authority stems from her marriage to Caillan - she was not Queen in her own right before they were married, she gained the title when they were married. Often, such authority is lost when the monarch dies - ie, when Caillan died, Anora lost any authrity she may have had, and a new King would be chosen.

Loghain, of course, had no right to 'name' himself anything - he wasn't King, or Queen, after all. So he exceeded his authority by naming himself regent for a Queen who, herself, had lost her authority to act as Queen on the death of her husband.

This, in my mind, is another strike against Loghain - he circumvents the right of succession by essentially using his conveniently still intact army to support Anora's remaining on the throne when she has no right to it.

A good chunk of the Landsmeet and many Banns supported Anora being on the throne so it is allowed in Fereldan. Also who exactly could have stepped in? Without Calian there is no "rightful" heir.

[TJPags]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

TJPags wrote...

A word about Anora as Queen and Loghain as regent:

Anora's authority stems from her marriage to Caillan - she was not Queen in her own right before they were married, she gained the title when they were married. Often, such authority is lost when the monarch dies - ie, when Caillan died, Anora lost any authrity she may have had, and a new King would be chosen.

Loghain, of course, had no right to 'name' himself anything - he wasn't King, or Queen, after all. So he exceeded his authority by naming himself regent for a Queen who, herself, had lost her authority to act as Queen on the death of her husband.

This, in my mind, is another strike against Loghain - he circumvents the right of succession by essentially using his conveniently still intact army to support Anora's remaining on the throne when she has no right to it.

A good chunk of the Landsmeet and many Banns supported Anora being on the throne so it is allowed in Fereldan.

Of course she can be voted as Queen - nothing I said precludes that.  But it needs to be approved, and Loghain prevented that approval - or, more importantly to him, disapproval - from taking place.

Also who exactly could have stepped in? Without Calian there is no "rightful" heir.

Anyone - Anora could have been confirmed, Eamon could have been put on the throne - well, if he wasn't poisoned, that is - the Cousland's could have been - well, if Howe didn't massacre them, anyway - or any other noble that was chosen. 

But without a vote, well, we get Anora staying with no authority but that of Daddy's army, which even she  - based on my interpretation of her actions before and during the Landsmeet - doesn't seem to want to rely on, perhaps because she now realizes how illegal it is, perhaps because she realizes how unstable he is.

[Sarah1281]

Anora may have been ruling the country, but Cailan was regent and she was just the consort. Had he not declared himself regent, there is no guarentee that his daughter would have been able to succeed in getting herself declared Queen Regent in her own right.

She was not consort; she was his Queen and his wife. There's quite a big difference. Loghain seems to use Anora to institute himself into the throne.

No there isn't. Cailan was the King Regent. Anora was the Queen Consort. If Anora was the Queen Regent she could not have had someone take over the regency in her name and her position upon Cailan's death would not be in jeopardy. Take the new rulers of Ferleden. If Anora and Alistair rule together they are both regents which, while rare, has been known to happen such as with Isabella and Ferdinand of Spain. If either one of them were run over by a carraige and killed, the other would keep on going as monarch without anyone worrying. If a Cousland was ruling with Alistair or Anora they'd only be the King/Queen consort and so while they could conceivably do what Anora tries and become King/Queen in their own right it's not automatic.

[TJPags]

Sarah and I agree on something?

What is the world coming to??? 

[FiliusMartis]

You and I must be using different definitions of regent. I'm using it to mean one who acts on behalf of a sovereign, typically while he or she is unable to do so. It was always my impression that Loghain is acting as Anora's regent which still keeps Anora in a place of power but under his thumb. If she was the Queen Regent, or ruling Queen, she can have a regent rule in her stead while she is unable to do so-- such as during a period of bereavement where she feels she needs assistance. This is obviously not the case (to the player) so why not just declare her regent? It's mentioned many times that she has a "stronger claim to the throne" than almost anyone. Furthermore, a consort may or may not be a legitimate wife, which is why there often is a difference, but no matter.



I'm not going to argue semantics when they don't negate my original point. If Anora has the strongest claim to the throne, is a competent administrator, is beloved by the people, and would likely be accepted as ruling Queen then why does Loghain institute himself as regent? It still appears to be a power play.

[TJPags]

Actually, Anora doesn't have the strongest claim to the throne, I don't think. She's not from the rulling bloodline, is not even of noble blood. Really, her only qualifications seem to be that she's good at the job, and was Caillan wife.



Of course, Alistar's only qualification is that he's Maric's bastard son.



The decision on who to put on the throne always seems, to me, a question of what you find more important - blood right, or ability.

[Sarah1281]

It's pretty clear in the game that no one has an actual CLAIM to the throne, it's all about politics. Anora's and Eamon's factions are pretty equal which is why you're the tie-breaker.

[TJPags]

Oh, lots of people have a CLAIM on the throne. A claim, after all, only means some right to it.



It's a question of who's claim is better, who has more political backing, etc.



Remember, in WK, we learn that Sophia Dryden had a claim to the throne, it just wasn't supported, hence, no throne for her, eventual rebellion, warden's outlawed, etc.

[FiliusMartis]

I did not say she had the absolute strongest claim, I said stronger than almost anybody-- Alistair included in that. That phrase, or a derivative thereof, is dropped in the game several times. 'Teagan and I have a claim to the throne' 'You need a stronger candidate, you need me,' etc.



Codex entries state that "in the five years Anora and Cailan held the throne together she was the one wielding the power," that Cailan "held the throne alongside his queen, Anora," and that Loghain "declared himself the regent to his daughter, Queen Anora." So my point stands that Loghain used Anora to institute himself into power.



I would also disagree a bit that Eamon and Anora are pretty equal in support. I am fairly certain that Loghain and Anora win the Landsmeet by default... The only way you are able to procure the necessary support to beat them is by doing the little odd quests to expose Loghain's crimes. In fact, according to the Wiki, Anora's support is the single most important vote at the Landsmeet, make of that what you will.

[TJPags]

I'm just not sure that, traditionally, she had any claim to the throne at all, unless you completely disregard bloodlines.



Basically, claimants to a throne rely on bloodline . . . the king/queen was my parent/older sibling/aunt and has no kids, etc. Barring outside influence, a throne will usually go to the one with the best blood claim - first born son/daughter of prior ruler, oldest sibling if no kids, etc.



In that regard, Anora has no claim whatsoever.



Now, since bastards are frequently disregarded in order of succession, Alistairs claim is highly suspect as well, but he IS the brother of Caillan, who was the only legitimate child of the last king, and who himself (Caillan) had no children - bastards have been known to be recognized historically in such instances, I believe.



Now, personally, I've never been a "blood rules" person - I'm also not a member of a royal family, nor do I live in a monarchy, so make of my opinion what you will - and think Anora is a better choice then Alistair, but I acknowledge she has no actual claim to the throne.

[FiliusMartis]

That depends largely on Ferelden politics. Even so, Arl Eamon says she has a claim to the throne, doesn't he? And given that he's not thrilled about it, I can't see that he'd lie about it. Yes bloodline is most important in most cases, but as far as most people know, there is no bloodline. Therefore the next step down is those royal by marriage- Anora, Eamon, and Teagan.



Anora has ruling experience and is loved by the people. She shared the throne for five years. As I'm reading it, she is still the queen during the events of DAO, given that Loghain is her regent and you depose her according to the codex entries. Anora is called queen after Cailan's death. Anora lives in the castle after Cailan's death. Loghain is regent to Queen Anora. All that says, to me, that Anora holds power during the events of the game.



Loghain does not have a legitimate claim to the throne. He uses Anora to institute himself into a position of power. This was, and remains, my original point in all this.

[Sarah1281]

But Anora is still Queen Consort. She isn't made Queen Regent until the Landsmeet.

[FiliusMartis]

That's your interpretation and definition; I told you I didn't want to argue semantics. Loghain is regent to his daughter-- he used her position as queen to get his position as regent. However you wish to define Anora's title does not refute this.

Arl Eamon: We need someone with a stronger claim to the throne than Loghain's daughter, the queen.

Bann Teagan: Are you referring to Alistair, brother? Are you serious?

Arl Eamon: I would not propose such a thing if we had an alternative. But the unthinkable has occurred.

By this, which is the setup for the Landsmeet, the hierarchy of claimants goes Alistair > Anora > Eamon/Teagan. This is what I refer to when I say "stronger claim to the throne."

[TJPags]

FiliusMartis wrote...

That depends largely on Ferelden politics.

Granted.

Even so, Arl Eamon says she has a claim to the throne, doesn't he? And given that he's not thrilled about it, I can't see that he'd lie about it. Yes bloodline is most important in most cases, but as far as most people know, there is no bloodline.

Yes, he does, say that, but remember, not everyone knows who Alistair is, so they THINK there's no bloodline.

Therefore the next step down is those royal by marriage- Anora, Eamon, and Teagan.

Actually, no, normally the next step would be other blood relatives of Maric - siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins regardless of how far removed, etc.  Now, I don't know his bloodline, so there may well be none of them running around, but typically, most noble families in a nation have SOME blood connection to the ruling family, even if it's 15 generations back.  This may be where Eamon and Teagan's claims come from, I don't know, and nobody in Ferelden may know, either.  But that would usually be the next step.

Anora has ruling experience and is loved by the people. She shared the throne for five years. As I'm reading it, she is still the queen during the events of DAO, given that Loghain is her regent and you depose her according to the codex entries. Anora is called queen after Cailan's death. Anora lives in the castle after Cailan's death. Loghain is regent to Queen Anora. All that says, to me, that Anora holds power during the events of the game.

All true.  The Queen Consort keeps the title, although it will often change to Queen Mother - not sure what would happen to a King Consort (Consort meaning the spouse of the ruler, who does not, themselves, have a right to rule) as far as change in title.  So Anora does have the right to keep the title, at least until a new ruler is chosen, she sure can stay in the castle, at least until someone throws her out.  Her power, though, is gone, technically, and is only held because of Loghain, so I think that codex untry (saying she is "deposed") is technically wrong, though, as a practical matter, right.  As to what power she holds - seems like Loghain was using her as a figurehead, and he was actually wielding the power, IMO.

Loghain does not have a legitimate claim to the throne. He uses Anora to institute himself into a position of power. This was, and remains, my original point in all this.

Completely in agreement here.


PS - Sarah, I think the term you mean is Regnant, not Regent.

[Sarah1281]

FiliusMartis wrote...

That's your interpretation and definition; I told you I didn't want to argue semantics. Loghain is regent to his daughter-- he used her position as queen to get his position as regent. However you wish to define Anora's title does not refute this.
 

But...it's NOT semantics. Do you not get what the difference is between a reigning Queen and a Queen Consort are or something? It really sounds like it from the way you keep insisting that Anora has legal power as a consort.

From wikipedia...

The wife of a reigning king is called a queen consort. The husband of a reigning queen is usually not called "king consort", although it was more common in Europe's past for husbands of queens regnant to become reigning kings (e.g. Philip II of Spain in England, Antoine of Bourbon-Vendôme in Navarre, Ferdinand of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha in Portugal, etc). He is normally called a prince or prince consort, as with the husbands of Queen Victoria and Queen Elizabeth II, or with prince consort Henrik of Denmark.
Where some title other than that of king is held by the sovereign, his wife is referred to by the feminine equivalent, such as princess consort or empress consort. In general, the consorts of monarchs have no power per se, even when their position is constitutionally or statutorily recognized. However, often the queen consort of a deceased king (the queen dowager or queen mother) has served as regent while her child, the successor to the throne, was still a minor.

There have been many cases of queens consort being shrewd or ambitious stateswomen and, albeit unofficially, being among the king's major advisors. In some cases, the queen consort has been the chief power behind her husband's throne; e.g. Maria Luisa of Parma, wife of Carlos IV of Spain, and Alexandra Fyodorovna (Alix of Hesse), wife and Empress Consort of Nicholas II of Russia.

A queen regnant (plural "queens regnant") is a female monarch who reigns in her own right, in contrast to a "queen consort", who is the wife of reigning king.
Queens regnant possess and exercise sovereign powers. The husbands of queens regnant do not usually share their wives' rank, title or sovereignty. Queens consort share their husbands' rank and titles, but do not share the sovereignty of their husbands.
A "queen dowager" is the widow of a king who reigned in his own right, and a "queen mother" is a queen dowager who is also the mother of a reigning sovereign.

A regent, from the Latin regens "that who reigns", is a person selected to act as head of state (ruling or not) because the ruler is a minor, not present, or debilitated.[1]
In a monarchy, a regent usually governs due to one of these reasons, but may also be elected to rule during the interregnum when the royal line has died out. This was the case in Finland and Hungary, where the royal line was considered extinct in the aftermath of World War I. In Iceland, the regent represented the King of Denmark as sovereign of Iceland until the country became a republic in 1944.
In the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (1569–1795), kings were elective, which often led to a fairly long interregnum. In the interim, it was the Polish Roman Catholic Primate who served as the regent, termed the "interrex" (Latin: ruler "between kings" as in ancient Rome).

Anora was the first one while Cailan was the male form of the second and Anora aspired to be the second. Loghain was the third but given that Anora was of age, in Denerim as well, and not ill or otherwise debilitated it's kind of a BS political move that people call him on and which sparks a civil war. He could have been regent since Cailan had no heir but to be Anora's regent? She doesn't fit the qualification of needing one.

Anora had no official power of her own though she wielded quite a bit in Cailan's name. She was Cailan's wife and not Queen in her own right. She was just Queen because she was his wife and, if it weren't for being recognized in her bid by the Landsmeet, she would have been replaced.

[Sarah1281]

Actually, no, normally the next step would be other blood relatives of Maric - siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins regardless of how far removed, etc. Now, I don't know his bloodline, so there may well be none of them running around, but typically, most noble families in a nation have SOME blood connection to the ruling family, even if it's 15 generations back. This may be where Eamon and Teagan's claims come from, I don't know, and nobody in Ferelden may know, either. But that would usually be the next step.

Everyone known to be of the royal family was killed by the Orlesians in the occupation.

PS - Sarah, I think the term you mean is Regnant, not Regent.

That was what I meant, yes, and it's not just a matter of semantics and interpreting. There is a huge difference between Anora's power as Queen Consort at the beginning of the game and Queen Regnant at the end. Mostly, you know, in her actually having any official power.

[FiliusMartis]

I do understand the difference between queen regnant and queen consort in the real world. You assume that this is a perfect overly for Ferelden politics whereas I am not sure of that. In Ferelden, the power of the king or queen comes from the bann. Members of the bann respected Anora as queen and knew she was ruling; after Cailan's death she was not challenged or deposed until the warden does so. This could have several implications to Ferelden politics, but I don't have enough information on such politics to make them.

We don't know what all Anora was doing during the game's span, granted, but guards were being hired and titles being handed out by the Anora-Loghain faction. This means they (or he rather) were exercising what amounts to king's powers. Whether or not they had a right to do this is not my point-- if the bann was allowing it, or just not stopping it, then Anora was acting as queen and Loghain her regent. Whether it was official, whether it was befitting of her title, or whether she had any right is beside my point.

The codex entry states Loghain was Anora's regent; I mentioned previously that he could have been feeding lines that she was bereaved or something and needed aid in order to get some people to allow this. I'm not entirely sure; there's only so much information to go on. However, there is no reason that Loghain could not have backed Anora as "regent" or Queen Regnant if you please, but he used her to get to power instead.

Modifié par FiliusMartis, 01 août 2010 - 08:07 .

[CaisLaochach]

Generally, if I'm playing as a human noble (which would be my normal playthrough) I would execute Loghain. It wouldn't suit the character's motivations all throughout the game to keep him alive. Political savvy combined with vengeful rage makes for a good combination.

With the other origins, conscripting him makes a lot of sense - he's a superb general, ruthless, a good fighter, etc. He's a huge asset to the Wardens.

[Giggles_Manically]

The origin with the best reason to kill him is the City Elf one.

[Sarah1281]

And yet Anora says she is sick of ruling in her husband's name, tells you she's making a bid to rule in her own right which (if she really were ruling in her own right) she wouldn't have to otherwise, and if a Cousland takes the throne they are referred to (at least in the epilogue for the HNF) as the consort. In the scene where Loghain addresses the nobility at the beginning Teagan mentions that he named himself Anora's regent and then tells him that the bannorn will not bow to him just because he demands it. Also, there's a violent civil war being fought by all the banns who aren't cool with Loghain's illegal power grab that the Landsmeet is called to quell and in the Chantry quest about the civil war it's mentioned that some banns refuse to bow to him.

It seems to me that Ferelden has a pretty similar idea of what consorts and regents can do. Even if everyone knows that Anora is really running the show, she's doing so under Cailan's authority. It's like if she were his chancellor instead of his wife. Everyone would know what she were doing and yet her poewr still came from Cailan and just because she'd been ruling in Cailan's name doesn't mean she's getting automatically promoted to reigning Queen. She needs to have the Landsmeet name her that although, yes, her experience will certainly strengthen her case.

Edit: The problem with Loghain being Anora's regent is that even if she were taking time off to mourn or whatever, she's still not the reigning Queen. Loghain can be the regent while another ruler is found but a consort doesn't ever have need of a regent.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 01 août 2010 - 08:16 .

[FiliusMartis]

Codex entry stays Loghain is regent to Queen Anora so that's what I'm going to go by. That's how it's set up for whatever reason. Anora is making a bid to rule officially rather than as a figurehead, which is what she did with Cailan and what it's been suggested she's doing with Loghain.



She needs the Landsmeet to make an official bid for Queen and get an official title and get official power-- I agree on that. But they are still acting like they have royal powers (whether they should or not) and Loghain uses her to get to regent. The monarch gets his/her power from the bann so the bann knowing Anora's been doing everything is more important in this case than it would be in a real world monarchy- that was part of my point. But nothing you've said refutes my original point, so I fail to see why we're still going. D=

Giggles_Manically said...

The origin with the best reason to kill him is the City Elf one.

I think city elf and human noble would have pretty equal ambitions to kill Loghain.

[Xandurpein]

Sarah1281 wrote...

And yet Anora says she is sick of ruling in her husband's name, tells you she's making a bid to rule in her own right which (if she really were ruling in her own right) she wouldn't have to otherwise, and if a Cousland takes the throne they are referred to (at least in the epilogue for the HNF) as the consort. In the scene where Loghain addresses the nobility at the beginning Teagan mentions that he named himself Anora's regent and then tells him that the bannorn will not bow to him just because he demands it. Also, there's a violent civil war being fought by all the banns who aren't cool with Loghain's illegal power grab that the Landsmeet is called to quell and in the Chantry quest about the civil war it's mentioned that some banns refuse to bow to him.

It seems to me that Ferelden has a pretty similar idea of what consorts and regents can do. Even if everyone knows that Anora is really running the show, she's doing so under Cailan's authority. It's like if she were his chancellor instead of his wife. Everyone would know what she were doing and yet her poewr still came from Cailan and just because she'd been ruling in Cailan's name doesn't mean she's getting automatically promoted to reigning Queen. She needs to have the Landsmeet name her that although, yes, her experience will certainly strengthen her case.

Exactly. Anora's power comes from the fact that Cailan lets her rule in his name. When Cailan dies, Anora loses legitimacy to rule Ferelden, unless she can convince the Landsmeet to make her queen in her own name. Loghain's attempt to name himself regent is simply a blatant power grab, which he no doubt justifies to himself by thinking Ferelden needs a strong man to ride out the crisis or something.

Anora has a strong backing among the Banns, that's why get som any votes if she speaks on your behalf at the Landsmeet, but you can convince the Landsmeet to accept Alistair instead, without resorting to violence first, if you play things right, even if Alistair technically he's not an eligble heir.

[Xandurpein]

FiliusMartis wrote...

Giggles_Manically said...
The origin with the best reason to kill him is the City Elf one.

I think city elf and human noble would have pretty equal ambitions to kill Loghain.

That all depends on if the human noble thinks Loghain is responsible for the massacre of the Couslands or not.

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

And yet Anora says she is sick of ruling in her husband's name, tells you she's making a bid to rule in her own right which (if she really were ruling in her own right) she wouldn't have to otherwise, and if a Cousland takes the throne they are referred to (at least in the epilogue for the HNF) as the consort. In the scene where Loghain addresses the nobility at the beginning Teagan mentions that he named himself Anora's regent and then tells him that the bannorn will not bow to him just because he demands it. Also, there's a violent civil war being fought by all the banns who aren't cool with Loghain's illegal power grab that the Landsmeet is called to quell and in the Chantry quest about the civil war it's mentioned that some banns refuse to bow to him.

It seems to me that Ferelden has a pretty similar idea of what consorts and regents can do. Even if everyone knows that Anora is really running the show, she's doing so under Cailan's authority. It's like if she were his chancellor instead of his wife. Everyone would know what she were doing and yet her poewr still came from Cailan and just because she'd been ruling in Cailan's name doesn't mean she's getting automatically promoted to reigning Queen. She needs to have the Landsmeet name her that although, yes, her experience will certainly strengthen her case.

Edit: The problem with Loghain being Anora's regent is that even if she were taking time off to mourn or whatever, she's still not the reigning Queen. Loghain can be the regent while another ruler is found but a consort doesn't ever have need of a regent.

QFT.

I always took his "naming himself regent" thing as his power grab - he knows he has no right to rule on his own, recognizes that Anora doesn't either, but has his army to support her.  It gives people who WANT to support her - or even him - a thin excuse on which to base that support.

The civil war, referred to often through the game, is because some nobles DON'T accept it from the beginning - see Teagen - or perhaps change their minds after seeing some of what is going on - I think there's reference to that in one of the rumors Bodahn tells you.

While it's true we don't know the ins and outs of Ferelden politics, it's clear (to me) from all of this that Anora's claim to power during the game, as backed by Loghain, is dubious, at best.

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Everyone known to be of the royal family was killed by the Orlesians in the occupation. 

We're told that, yes, but they missed Maric - and given how long the occupation lasted, his parents, too - so I just think it's possible they missed others, especially if the connection was far enough removed.

Not very important though, just nit picking.