497 réponses à ce sujet

[Xandurpein]

TJPags wrote...

While it's true we don't know the ins and outs of Ferelden politics, it's clear (to me) from all of this that Anora's claim to power during the game, as backed by Loghain, is dubious, at best.

No one has a legitimate claim to the throne. That is the root of the civil war and the whole question of choice. Anora is only a consort and Alistair is a bastard not officially accepted as heir by Maric. So neither of them has legitimate claim according to the laws of succession. Consequently it becomes a purely political decision. In which one faction supports the Queen and Eamon's faction supports Alistair. The arden then gets to cast the deciding vote so to speak.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 01 août 2010 - 08:31 .

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Everyone known to be of the royal family was killed by the Orlesians in the occupation. 

We're told that, yes, but they missed Maric - and given how long the occupation lasted, his parents, too - so I just think it's possible they missed others, especially if the connection was far enough removed.

Not very important though, just nit picking.

Well, Maric's father, whoever he was, wouldn't have technically been a member of the royal family and Moira WAS killed by traitors at the start of TST. I doubt that anyone else made it as they had thirty years to come out of hiding and failed to.

[TJPags]

Xandurpein wrote...

TJPags wrote...

While it's true we don't know the ins and outs of Ferelden politics, it's clear (to me) from all of this that Anora's claim to power during the game, as backed by Loghain, is dubious, at best.

No one has a legitimate claim to the throne. That is the root of the civil war and the whole question of choice. Anora is only a consort and Alistair is a bastard not officially accepted as heir by Maric. So neither of them has legitimate claim according to the laws of succession. Consequently it becomes a purely political decision. In which one faction supports the Queen and Eamon's faction supports Alistair. The arden then gets to cast the deciding vote so to speak.

True-ish.

While Alistair wasn;t legitimized, he WAS Maric's son, and so had SOME claim, limited though it was.  Some, as you suggest, would view it as none at all, while some (see, Eamon) view is as perfectly legit.

it is, as you say, a nice way to set up your character being the deciding vote, with a choice between bloodline (alistair) and competance (Anora).

I pefer competance, myself.

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Everyone known to be of the royal family was killed by the Orlesians in the occupation. 

We're told that, yes, but they missed Maric - and given how long the occupation lasted, his parents, too - so I just think it's possible they missed others, especially if the connection was far enough removed.

Not very important though, just nit picking.

Well, Maric's father, whoever he was, wouldn't have technically been a member of the royal family and Moira WAS killed by traitors at the start of TST. I doubt that anyone else made it as they had thirty years to come out of hiding and failed to.

Fair enough - as I said before, never read the books.

I rationalize it by thinking that most nobles likely died during the initial occupation, others killed/died in intervening years, and records which would show that so-and-so was really Maric's cousin 27 times removed from 22 generations back were likely lost/destroyed along the way.

[Xandurpein]

TJPags wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

TJPags wrote...

While it's true we don't know the ins and outs of Ferelden politics, it's clear (to me) from all of this that Anora's claim to power during the game, as backed by Loghain, is dubious, at best.

No one has a legitimate claim to the throne. That is the root of the civil war and the whole question of choice. Anora is only a consort and Alistair is a bastard not officially accepted as heir by Maric. So neither of them has legitimate claim according to the laws of succession. Consequently it becomes a purely political decision. In which one faction supports the Queen and Eamon's faction supports Alistair. The arden then gets to cast the deciding vote so to speak.

True-ish.

While Alistair wasn;t legitimized, he WAS Maric's son, and so had SOME claim, limited though it was.  Some, as you suggest, would view it as none at all, while some (see, Eamon) view is as perfectly legit.

it is, as you say, a nice way to set up your character being the deciding vote, with a choice between bloodline (alistair) and competance (Anora).

I pefer competance, myself.

You really can't have "some" legitimacy. A bastard child who is not legitimized by the father simply won't have any status as heir at all. What Eamon does is probably to use the Landsmeets power to effectivly legitimize him retroactivly in Maric's name. It may be nit-picking, but it's an either or. Either he is in the line of succssision or not.

And as my signature suggests, I tend to go for proven competence too, but it depends of what type of character I play.

[FiliusMartis]

Loghain could have declared Anora regent until the next Landsmeet and backed her with his army, probably with better results than declaring himself such. He uses her (unofficial) standing as a stepping stone to pretty much put himself on the throne, and then proceeds to act like such. The men he sends to Orzammar even call him King Loghain. Many of us seem to be agreeing that it is a power grab; whether or not it is a legally legitimate one is really beside the point I was making when I brought it up



Eamon states that the only one with a stronger claim than Anora is Alistair, so yes there is a thing as "claim to the throne." This is an unprecedented event, really. Considering Ferelden is a young nation that's never been without a direct successor, it's hard to say how they would treat the queen consort, bastards, or distant cousins.

That all depends on if the human noble thinks Loghain is responsible for the massacre of the Couslands or not.

Fair enough, but I think it's a legitimate conclusion. Loghain has to know about it, and he does give Howe their titles and lands, doesn't he? Either way, he's buddies with Howe, so he can be seen as indirectly condoning the latter's actions.

[Costin_Razvan]

He doesn't give Howe any title, Howe takes those for himself. You hear Vaughn in the Denerim dungeons and how he says that Howe ALONE came with troops into Denerim and seized the title of Arl.

[FiliusMartis]

Ah, okay. Vaughn always just grumbles or... snores at me or something, so I very well could have missed that. I inferred it from the warden being able to comment that Howe's boot locking was profitable. The latter still stands, I suppose.

[Sarah1281]

FiliusMartis wrote...

Ah, okay. Vaughn always just grumbles or... snores at me or something, so I very well could have missed that. I inferred it from the warden being able to comment that Howe's boot locking was profitable. The latter still stands, I suppose.

Aside from just wanting to insult Howe, if one of Loghain's political opponents like, say, Eamon had gone around collecting titles under mysterious circumstances like Howe did, chances were he'd look into it more. As it was, the more power Howe got the more useful of an ally he was.

[TJPags]

Xandurpein wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

TJPags wrote...

While it's true we don't know the ins and outs of Ferelden politics, it's clear (to me) from all of this that Anora's claim to power during the game, as backed by Loghain, is dubious, at best.

No one has a legitimate claim to the throne. That is the root of the civil war and the whole question of choice. Anora is only a consort and Alistair is a bastard not officially accepted as heir by Maric. So neither of them has legitimate claim according to the laws of succession. Consequently it becomes a purely political decision. In which one faction supports the Queen and Eamon's faction supports Alistair. The arden then gets to cast the deciding vote so to speak.

True-ish.

While Alistair wasn;t legitimized, he WAS Maric's son, and so had SOME claim, limited though it was.  Some, as you suggest, would view it as none at all, while some (see, Eamon) view is as perfectly legit.

it is, as you say, a nice way to set up your character being the deciding vote, with a choice between bloodline (alistair) and competance (Anora).

I pefer competance, myself.

You really can't have "some" legitimacy. A bastard child who is not legitimized by the father simply won't have any status as heir at all. What Eamon does is probably to use the Landsmeets power to effectivly legitimize him retroactivly in Maric's name. It may be nit-picking, but it's an either or. Either he is in the line of succssision or not.

And as my signature suggests, I tend to go for proven competence too, but it depends of what type of character I play.

I suppose I mispoke a bit.  True, he can't have "some" legitimacy - he had it in the eyes of some, and not in others.  Clearly, Eamon considered his claim legit, and yes, was essentially trying to have him legitimized after the fact.

Remember, if Alistair goes off as a drunk, there IS at least one rebellion in his name, so SOME people besides Eamon, at least, feel he has a proper claim.

[Costin_Razvan]

As Anora points out, Loghain isn't friends with Howe. A political ally doesn't equal to being a buddy.

The fact is Howe had the titles of arl on two lands and also the one of teryn, if Loghain had tried to take him down then 2 seconds after Howe would have joined the other side of the civil war, which is something Loghain can't afford to happen.

 so SOME people besides Eamon, at least, feel he has a proper claim.

No, there are just some people who are trying to use Alistair's name to give a reason for their rebellion against the crown. Nobles are usually hungry with power.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 août 2010 - 08:49 .

[Xandurpein]

FiliusMartis wrote...

Loghain could have declared Anora regent until the next Landsmeet and backed her with his army, probably with better results than declaring himself such. He uses her (unofficial) standing as a stepping stone to pretty much put himself on the throne, and then proceeds to act like such. The men he sends to Orzammar even call him King Loghain. Many of us seem to be agreeing that it is a power grab; whether or not it is a legally legitimate one is really beside the point I was making when I brought it up

Agreed. Loghain is an idiot for trying to make himself a Regent himself instead of supporting Anora. He would probably had succeded. Then again, he's not a very politically astute man, unlike his daughter.

FiliusMartis wrote...

Eamon states that the only one with a stronger claim than Anora is Alistair, so yes there is a thing as "claim to the throne." This is an unprecedented event, really. Considering Ferelden is a young nation that's never been without a direct successor, it's hard to say how they would treat the queen consort, bastards, or distant cousins.

That is not a legal claim, rather it's Eamon's own biased opinion. Eamon believes Alistair should be King, others believe Anora should be queen. That is just politics.

FiliusMartis wrote...

That all depends on if the human noble thinks Loghain is responsible for the massacre of the Couslands or not.

Fair enough, but I think it's a legitimate conclusion. Loghain has to know about it, and he does give Howe their titles and lands, doesn't he? Either way, he's buddies with Howe, so he can be seen as indirectly condoning the latter's actions.

I don't blame anyone who RP their Cousland as believing Loghain is responsible for the massacre of the Couslands, but David Gaider has stated that Howe did it on his own. Loghain later accpeted him as ally, knowing what he had done, but he never had anything to do with the actual massacre. A Cousland would also have grown up hearing about Loghain's record as war hero, something that may mean very little to an elf or a dwarf.

[TJPags]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

He doesn't give Howe any title, Howe takes those for himself. You hear Vaughn in the Denerim dungeons and how he says that Howe ALONE came with troops into Denerim and seized the title of Arl.

Well, this is like "did Loghain hire Zev".

Loghain was the ruling power - legitimately or not, as we've also been discussing - and he at least ALLOWED Howe to take and keep those titles (doesn't Howe correct someone (in Loghain's hearing) and remind them he's also the Arl of Denerim?), so give or allow to keep, it's really the same.

[Xandurpein]

TJPags wrote...

Remember, if Alistair goes off as a drunk, there IS at least one rebellion in his name, so SOME people besides Eamon, at least, feel he has a proper claim.

I think we may only be quibbling about words and I suppose that's my fault. He has potentially a claim, if Maric or a Landsmeet votes to give him a claim. And at least to Eamon and some others that give him a moral claim.

[TJPags]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

As Anora points out, Loghain isn't friends with Howe. A political ally doesn't equal to being a buddy.

The fact is Howe had the titles of arl on two lands and also the one of teryn, if Loghain had tried to take him down then 2 seconds after Howe would have joined the other side of the civil war, which is something Loghain can't afford to happen.

 so SOME people besides Eamon, at least, feel he has a proper claim.

No, there are just some people who are trying to use Alistair's name to give a reason for their rebellion against the crown. Nobles are usually hungry with power.

Exactly  - just as Loghain used Anora's title to provide a reason for his exercise of power, just like Eamon used Alistair as a reason to put someone other then Anora on the throne.

After all, you rebell in the name of someone, you tend to put them on the throne if successful- often hoping they'll be your puppet.  Nobles ARE frequently hungry for power, and Loghain, Eamon, and Anora are all guilty of this.

[Giggles_Manically]

Loghain wasent power hungry,

he just lacked tack and diplomacy and tried to push the nobility instead of guiding it like Anora would,



Happens when a military man tries to go into politics.

[Xandurpein]

TJPags wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

He doesn't give Howe any title, Howe takes those for himself. You hear Vaughn in the Denerim dungeons and how he says that Howe ALONE came with troops into Denerim and seized the title of Arl.

Well, this is like "did Loghain hire Zev".

Loghain was the ruling power - legitimately or not, as we've also been discussing - and he at least ALLOWED Howe to take and keep those titles (doesn't Howe correct someone (in Loghain's hearing) and remind them he's also the Arl of Denerim?), so give or allow to keep, it's really the same.

Loghain certainly is capable of forgetting morals to get the job done. No question about that. He accepts Howe as an ally, He sells elves into slavery, etc. I actually find it a lot easier to forgive Loghain as Cousland than as elf. I imagine a noble is trained to think is terms of political solutions and not just blind revenge.

[Xandurpein]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Happens when a military man tries to go into politics.

That is the truth. Loghain is the perfect example of why generals should stay out of politics.

[phaonica]

Xandurpein wrote...

Agreed. Loghain is an idiot for trying to make himself a Regent himself instead of supporting Anora. He would probably had succeded. Then again, he's not a very politically astute man, unlike his daughter.

Anora also supported the idea of bringing in Orlesian reinforcments. He might have talked her down from this, but I guess we'll never know.

[FiliusMartis]

My apologies, I was being facetious when I said buddies previously. I understand that it was an alliance, but it was not a well thought out one. A Cousland would not be privy to supplemental information provided by Gaider. Still experiencing a lot of grief and anger, he or she would likely see Howe walking in at Loghain's side with a slew of title and jump to the most logical conclusion.



I'm not sure what the "other side of the civil war" is... but if you mean Eamon's Faction/Warden then there's no way Howe could go there in a Human Noble origin storyline.



Zevran says Loghain hired him, so I typically go with that. Howe brings him to Loghain, and it seems that Loghain gives him permission. Allowing it to happen while being in a position to stop it is pretty much just as bad, I agree.

[Costin_Razvan]

Agreed. Loghain is an idiot for trying to make himself a Regent himself instead of supporting Anora. He would probably had succeded. Then again, he's not a very politically astute man, unlike his daughter.

I don't agree here. You are really giving Anora too much credit by saying that supporting Anora would have worked. In my opinion Loghain is a very hated man by the nobility for being to who did every little dirty work for Maric and the fact he was a commoner made general. So his support might not count for much.

We both know that most nobles are snakes that jump at any chance for power. With Cailan dead and Anora not being the exact successor for him then it really would have ended in a mess anyway, there is no guarantee that Anora could have become queen.

The fact that many among the nobility suspect Loghain left Cailan to die would have been something all his opponents ( and consequently Anora's if the situation you are describing came to pass ) would have jumped to try and take him down. It's not that they care though.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 août 2010 - 09:04 .

[Sarah1281]

I'm not sure what the "other side of the civil war" is... but if you mean Eamon's Faction/Warden then there's no way Howe could go there in a Human Noble origin storyline.

Why couldn't he? If he switched to Eamon's side and that side won with his support being a deciding factor, do you really think people are going to reward him for being the key to their victory by taking his titles? They might have been able to work something out to appease both sides by giving either the Couslands or Howes Gwaren instead.

[Giggles_Manically]

Anora and Loghain are very popular with the people.

While Alistair is more popular among the nobolity.



I always marry Alistair to Anora, should keep most of the factions calm for the most part.

[FiliusMartis]

I just don't think they would take him. Eamon is comatose until the warden wakes him up, and I don't see the last Cousland welcoming Howe with open arms. I don't think his support really means anything, considering he doesn't even stand on his own but leans on Loghain. I suppose you could rp a Cousland that way, but it seems to undermine the character, imo.

[Sarah1281]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Anora and Loghain are very popular with the people.
While Alistair is more popular among the nobolity.

I always marry Alistair to Anora, should keep most of the factions calm for the most part.

Alistair is more popular with the people than Anora given that he's far more jocular and friendly than she is and if you listen to the nobles in the tavern before meeting Erlina they make it clear that they have no problem with her on the throne, particularly with Loghain there and disparagingly refer to Alistair as 'that bastard of Maric's.' Not all nobles are the diehard traditionalists that Eamon is.