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[Costin_Razvan]

I very much doubt Eamon would dismiss Howe as an ally.

 Alistair is more popular with the people than Anora given that he's far more jocular and friendly than she is and if you listen to the nobles in the tavern before meeting Erlina they make it clear that they have no problem with her on the throne, particularly with Loghain there and disparagingly refer to Alistair as 'that bastard of Maric's.' Not all nobles are the diehard traditionalists that Eamon is.

And all those nobles save Sighard support Loghain without question unless you convince them otherwise. The Landsmeet does take place AFTER Loghain has almost won the Civil War, remember that.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 août 2010 - 09:11 .

[TJPags]

See, I think Loghain COULD have pulled off his power grab, had he done it right.

Anora was recognized as having basically ruled, and ruled well, while Caillan was 'king'.  She certainly was respected by the nobility, and loved by the masses.  With no children, as we see in the landsmeet, she did have support, even after what Loghain did as 'regent'.  So there would have been some support for her had there been a Landsmeet right after Ostagar.

Loghain had the army to intimidate some into backing her.  He, and she, was also in a position to grant favors to others as an inducement to support her.
The only other claimant that the game recognizes is, after all, Alistair, who doesn't want the job at this point, is not universally known to be Maric's son, is a bastard, and is, after all, a Grey Warden - still viewed with some suspicion, and Grey Wardens don't hold titles, do they?

A little carrot here, a little stick here, and Anora likely COULD have been crowned early on - remember, your warden's influence only comes AFTER you gather the armies to defend Ferelden and through your actions during the game. At this point, you have none, unless, as a HN, you count your Cousland blood as influence.

[Sarah1281]

FiliusMartis wrote...

I just don't think they would take him. Eamon is comatose until the warden wakes him up, and I don't see the last Cousland welcoming Howe with open arms. I don't think his support really means anything, considering he doesn't even stand on his own but leans on Loghain. I suppose you could rp a Cousland that way, but it seems to undermine the character, imo.

You're forgetting something. The last Cousland Warden has practically no political power at all until the Landsmeet. Howe has a lot of power even if no one likes him and Amaranthine, Denerim, and Highever are all his. Eamon may be comatose but Howe may know how to fix that and even if that's not the case then I don't see any Cousland worth a damn deciding to **** Ferelden and just leave because he won't try to revive Eamon and oust Loghain with Howe on his side. I think a Cousland that cares so little about Ferelden as to abandon it over personal issues if Howe is really their best shot to be undermining their character far more than reluctantly dealing while trying to avoid Howe (who would probably do the same).

[FiliusMartis]

You and I read Eamon's character differently then. No harm there, and it's not that big of a deal. Howe just... doesn't seem that big of a deal. He's rarely even brought up at the Landsmeet. It just seems like his "support" might do more harm than good.

[Costin_Razvan]

He isn't brought up that much because he is DEAD by then.



Dead men don't have political power you know.

[Sarah1281]

FiliusMartis wrote...

You and I read Eamon's character differently then. No harm there, and it's not that big of a deal. Howe just... doesn't seem that big of a deal. He's rarely even brought up at the Landsmeet. It just seems like his "support" might do more harm than good.

Why would he be mentioned at the Landsmeet a lot? He's dead. And Anora only comes up once, too, and yet her support is worth a lot.

[Xandurpein]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Anora and Loghain are very popular with the people.
While Alistair is more popular among the nobolity.

I always marry Alistair to Anora, should keep most of the factions calm for the most part.

Alistair is more popular with the people than Anora given that he's far more jocular and friendly than she is and if you listen to the nobles in the tavern before meeting Erlina they make it clear that they have no problem with her on the throne, particularly with Loghain there and disparagingly refer to Alistair as 'that bastard of Maric's.' Not all nobles are the diehard traditionalists that Eamon is.

Once Alistair is on the throne he becomes very popular with the commoners, but that is not the same as saying he was popular with the commoners at the Landsmeet. At the Landsmeet hardly any commoner had even heard of Alistair, even though a lot of the nobility at least seems to have known who he was, so in that respect I suppose that he was more popular among at least a clique of the nobility, than among the commoners at the time of the Landsmeet.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 01 août 2010 - 09:15 .

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

FiliusMartis wrote...

I just don't think they would take him. Eamon is comatose until the warden wakes him up, and I don't see the last Cousland welcoming Howe with open arms. I don't think his support really means anything, considering he doesn't even stand on his own but leans on Loghain. I suppose you could rp a Cousland that way, but it seems to undermine the character, imo.

You're forgetting something. The last Cousland Warden has practically no political power at all until the Landsmeet. Howe has a lot of power even if no one likes him and Amaranthine, Denerim, and Highever are all his. Eamon may be comatose but Howe may know how to fix that and even if that's not the case then I don't see any Cousland worth a damn deciding to **** Ferelden and just leave because he won't try to revive Eamon and oust Loghain with Howe on his side. I think a Cousland that cares so little about Ferelden as to abandon it over personal issues if Howe is really their best shot to be undermining their character far more than reluctantly dealing while trying to avoid Howe (who would probably do the same).

No, I can't see a Cousland accepting Howe "as is".  I  CAN see him perhaps accepting Howe not dying, but simply accepting Howe as is - no way.

Perhaps someone else - Fergus, some other noble - getting Highever instead of Howe, and Howe's KIDS actually getting title to Denerim and Amaranthine, with Howe himself being killed/exiled might be acceptable, but as is? 

As is I'd walk too.

[Costin_Razvan]

You promise your father at the end of the Origin to always do your duty, if you are going to betray that promise just to get your revenge regardless of the consequences then perhaps you should reconsider what the Cousland name means to you.

Though personally I would say **** this, and join Loghain's side if I had to side with Howe as an ally of Eamon.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 août 2010 - 09:22 .

[phaonica]

TJPags wrote...

See, I think Loghain COULD have pulled off his power grab, had he done it right.

Anora was recognized as having basically ruled, and ruled well, while Caillan was 'king'.  She certainly was respected by the nobility, and loved by the masses.  With no children, as we see in the landsmeet, she did have support, even after what Loghain did as 'regent'.  So there would have been some support for her had there been a Landsmeet right after Ostagar.

Loghain had the army to intimidate some into backing her.  He, and she, was also in a position to grant favors to others as an inducement to support her.
The only other claimant that the game recognizes is, after all, Alistair, who doesn't want the job at this point, is not universally known to be Maric's son, is a bastard, and is, after all, a Grey Warden - still viewed with some suspicion, and Grey Wardens don't hold titles, do they?

A little carrot here, a little stick here, and Anora likely COULD have been crowned early on - remember, your warden's influence only comes AFTER you gather the armies to defend Ferelden and through your actions during the game. At this point, you have none, unless, as a HN, you count your Cousland blood as influence.

So is his deserving to die based on whether or not he suceeded at his power grab? Because he messed it up and did some disagreeable things trying to fix it, does that make him a horrible person?

I agree that motives alone don't excuse certain actions, but they do make a significant impact on whether or not I decide to give a person a second chance.

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

FiliusMartis wrote...

I just don't think they would take him. Eamon is comatose until the warden wakes him up, and I don't see the last Cousland welcoming Howe with open arms. I don't think his support really means anything, considering he doesn't even stand on his own but leans on Loghain. I suppose you could rp a Cousland that way, but it seems to undermine the character, imo.

You're forgetting something. The last Cousland Warden has practically no political power at all until the Landsmeet. Howe has a lot of power even if no one likes him and Amaranthine, Denerim, and Highever are all his. Eamon may be comatose but Howe may know how to fix that and even if that's not the case then I don't see any Cousland worth a damn deciding to **** Ferelden and just leave because he won't try to revive Eamon and oust Loghain with Howe on his side. I think a Cousland that cares so little about Ferelden as to abandon it over personal issues if Howe is really their best shot to be undermining their character far more than reluctantly dealing while trying to avoid Howe (who would probably do the same).

No, I can't see a Cousland accepting Howe "as is".  I  CAN see him perhaps accepting Howe not dying, but simply accepting Howe as is - no way.

Perhaps someone else - Fergus, some other noble - getting Highever instead of Howe, and Howe's KIDS actually getting title to Denerim and Amaranthine, with Howe himself being killed/exiled might be acceptable, but as is? 

As is I'd walk too.

I don't think that issues such as who gets to keep Highever would be brought up before the end of the Blight because they have more important problems and anyone with half a brain could see that that very topic would be sure to fracture them. After the Blight, being the Hero of Ferelden would mean that the Cousland Warden would have a great deal of political power but also that they're not all that's standing between Ferelden and destruction anymore if they don't get there way. Besides, I already said that if Howe just wanted a teynir and not Highever in particular a compromise could be Gwaren and Fergus gets Higehver.

And if you'd walk you fail as a Cousland. It's 'A Cousland always does their duty' not 'A Cousland likes to say that they do their duty so they feel superior to other people but if they don't like that duty then they can feel free to leave the country to be ravished by darkspawn while they bugger off to Orlais.'

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You promise your father at the end of the Origin to always do your duty, if you are going to betray that promise just to get your revenge regardless of the consequences then perhaps you should reconsider what the Cousland name means to you.

Though personally I would say **** this, and join Loghain's side if I had to side with Howe as an ally of Eamon.

Good luck given he wants to kill you for being an Orlesian spy.

[Giggles_Manically]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You promise your father at the end of the Origin to always do your duty, if you are going to betray that promise just to get your revenge regardless of the consequences then perhaps you should reconsider what the Cousland name means to you.

Though personally I would say **** this, and join Loghain's side if I had to side with Howe as an ally of Eamon.

BUT COSTIN LOGHIAIN IS EVIL!!
sorry Loghain hate took direct control for a second.

Never thought of it that way, but you make a good point, I think if it even meant using Howe your father would have wanted it done to save the country,

[FiliusMartis]

That depends on your choices doesn't it? You can also say that you will do whatever it takes to bring Howe to justice. You can also play a character who believes that Howe will be detrimental to your cause and not base it so much on revenge.



All of Howe's power and Loghain's support is kind of like a chicken v. egg question, to me.

[Sarah1281]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You promise your father at the end of the Origin to always do your duty, if you are going to betray that promise just to get your revenge regardless of the consequences then perhaps you should reconsider what the Cousland name means to you.

Though personally I would say **** this, and join Loghain's side if I had to side with Howe as an ally of Eamon.

BUT COSTIN LOGHIAIN IS EVIL!!
sorry Loghain hate took direct control for a second.

Never thought of it that way, but you make a good point, I think if it even meant using Howe your father would have wanted it done to save the country,

There's plenty of time to make use of having befriended a skilled assassin after Howe helps you unite the country against the Blight.

[Ulicus]

FiliusMartis wrote...

You and I read Eamon's character differently then. No harm there, and it's not that big of a deal. Howe just... doesn't seem that big of a deal. He's rarely even brought up at the Landsmeet. It just seems like his "support" might do more harm than good.

Well he's on Alistair's side during Darkspawn Chronicles....

[Iliumdawson]

Sarah1281 wrote...

FiliusMartis wrote...

You and I read Eamon's character differently then. No harm there, and it's not that big of a deal. Howe just... doesn't seem that big of a deal. He's rarely even brought up at the Landsmeet. It just seems like his "support" might do more harm than good.

Why would he be mentioned at the Landsmeet a lot? He's dead. And Anora only comes up once, too, and yet her support is worth a lot.

Howes support is not worth Sh*t. The other Nobles dont even like him. Loghain and Howe are only gaining power through military force and the fact that they dont mention Howe at all during the Landsmeet just goes to show how little the other Nobles cared about him. Anora besides being an utter B*tch, is a competent ruler and commands respect but she is not of the Theirin bloodline and besides if you harden Alistair he ends up being a pretty good King and is no longer reluctant.. So all of them are fairly useless.

[Sarah1281]

FiliusMartis wrote...

That depends on your choices doesn't it? You can also say that you will do whatever it takes to bring Howe to justice. You can also play a character who believes that Howe will be detrimental to your cause and not base it so much on revenge.

All of Howe's power and Loghain's support is kind of like a chicken v. egg question, to me.

Considering the situation was one in that Howe's support turns things decisively in your favor, playing a 'he's not helping us, really!' character would be playing one not in tune with reality. If he's not helping then it's not even an issue. A human mage Warden who's never heard of Howe and doesn't care one way or another wouldn't ally with him if it were detrimental to their cause.

[phaonica]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You promise your father at the end of the Origin to always do your duty, if you are going to betray that promise just to get your revenge regardless of the consequences then perhaps you should reconsider what the Cousland name means to you.

Though personally I would say **** this, and join Loghain's side if I had to side with Howe as an ally of Eamon.

Good luck given he wants to kill you for being an Orlesian spy.

This is true, and is really the only reason my Cousland wouldnt' have gone to try to reason with Loghain as soon as possible. If all I had to do was side with Loghain to stop the war, I would have done it, but Loghain didn't trust the Wardens so I couldn't reach him. (I don't blame him for mistrusting the Wardens, either).

[phaonica]

TJPags wrote...

No, I can't see a Cousland accepting Howe "as is".  I  CAN see him perhaps accepting Howe not dying, but simply accepting Howe as is - no way.

I might have spared Howe if I thought I could trust his vote. As a Cousland, I don't think I could have trusted him, but my other characters might consider it, given the chance.  I think Howe's vote would be every bit as useful as a nameless (Crow) noble's vote or Vaughn's.

Modifié par phaonica, 01 août 2010 - 09:33 .

[FiliusMartis]

I made the statement clearly saying a party lead by a Cousland. A Cousland might find that a man whose loyalties shift so readily, who massacres innocents unprovoked, and who moves his armies secretly and/or lies about their locations would not be a good ally.



And I don't have Darkspawn Chronicles so I'm sorry, I did not take that into account.

[TJPags]

phaonica wrote...

TJPags wrote...

See, I think Loghain COULD have pulled off his power grab, had he done it right.

Anora was recognized as having basically ruled, and ruled well, while Caillan was 'king'.  She certainly was respected by the nobility, and loved by the masses.  With no children, as we see in the landsmeet, she did have support, even after what Loghain did as 'regent'.  So there would have been some support for her had there been a Landsmeet right after Ostagar.

Loghain had the army to intimidate some into backing her.  He, and she, was also in a position to grant favors to others as an inducement to support her.
The only other claimant that the game recognizes is, after all, Alistair, who doesn't want the job at this point, is not universally known to be Maric's son, is a bastard, and is, after all, a Grey Warden - still viewed with some suspicion, and Grey Wardens don't hold titles, do they?

A little carrot here, a little stick here, and Anora likely COULD have been crowned early on - remember, your warden's influence only comes AFTER you gather the armies to defend Ferelden and through your actions during the game. At this point, you have none, unless, as a HN, you count your Cousland blood as influence.

So is his deserving to die based on whether or not he suceeded at his power grab? Because he messed it up and did some disagreeable things trying to fix it, does that make him a horrible person?

I agree that motives alone don't excuse certain actions, but they do make a significant impact on whether or not I decide to give a person a second chance.

Most of why I want him to die is because of what he does during the game - leaving the battle at Ostagar, his power grab, poisoning Eamon, slavery, complicity with Howe in: murdering the Couslands, torturing and imprisoning nobles, framing the Wardens, hiring assassins to try to kill me.

Assuming he did his "power grab" right, little of this, if any, would have occurred.  And again, it wouldn't be putting him on the throne, it would be putting Anora on the throne - which I'm fine with - with Loghain likely taking control of the army during the blight, perhaps gaining a title, but mainly, not being king or even regent himself.

Just saying it COULD have been done, and in a way that would have cemented Anora's power - and, of course, changed the game completely.

[TJPags]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You promise your father at the end of the Origin to always do your duty, if you are going to betray that promise just to get your revenge regardless of the consequences then perhaps you should reconsider what the Cousland name means to you.

Though personally I would say **** this, and join Loghain's side if I had to side with Howe as an ally of Eamon.

And I would be doing my duty by protecting the realm, and ensuring that my parents murderer - Renden Howe - doesn't profit by that murder. 

I DID suggest a compromise which would likely be acceptable on my end, after all.  But really, how could anyone in that situation simply forget the whole "massacre my parents, my sister in law and young nephew" aspect and let Howe himself prosper?

[phaonica]

TJPags wrote...

Most of why I want him to die is because of what he does during the game - leaving the battle at Ostagar, his power grab, poisoning Eamon, slavery, complicity with Howe in: murdering the Couslands, torturing and imprisoning nobles, framing the Wardens, hiring assassins to try to kill me.
 

Do his motives not matter at all? Because Jowan poisoned Eamon, too, did you execute him? Zevran tried to kill you, did you kill him? Sten murdered that whole family, did you let him die in that cage? 

You can argue that Loghain did much more than that, but what if you hadn't stopped Zevran? He would have continued to assassinate people. What other dumb things would Jowan have ended up doing that could have put people in danger? How do you know that Sten wasn't going to murder more people? 

[FiliusMartis]

Jowan took Loghain's word that Eamon was a threat. Jowan's dumb... That is all lol. I often kill Zevran, but not Sten. The differences are many. For one, all of the above admit what they did, own up to it, and most try to do better. I originally said that Loghain making a formal admission of everything he did would sway me. Jowan, Sten, and Zevran did not put their personal ambitions ahead of the safety of the nation in light of the blight.