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[Sarah1281]

I find the whole idea of you being a coward in the way you end the Blight ludicrous as, guess what, you END THE BLIGHT. Being a coward means you wouldn't even bother to show up and leave Ferelden to its fate.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 29 juillet 2010 - 09:07 .

[Sarah1281]

phaonica wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

You know, all this 'do you want to be the ONE guy who doesn't step up to the plate' doesn't really strike me as a very good argument for the US being selfless. It's basically saying you're worried about your freaking image and you don't want everyone else to secretly think you're a coward.

It is possible to think of yourself as a coward and it doesn't have to have anything to do with what other people think of you.

That it is but I am sick of other people hear telling me that even though I don't feel doing the DR is irresponsible and cowardly that it is and I just ****ed over all of Thedas forever.

[phaonica]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I find the whole idea of you being a coward in the way you end the Blight ludicrous as, guess what, you END THE BLIGHT. Being a coward means you wouldn't even bother to show up and leave Ferelden to its fate.

You may end the blight, but you in turn potentially put a lot of people right back into danger. Are you saying that at that point they are no longer your problem because, hey, you ended the Blight and that's your only job.

[Giggles_Manically]

I would do it more often if Alistair didnt have a whole Ponce moment with sparing Loghain.



Overall I dont think of Loghain as a douche or an evil person, just one who is so jaded and twisted that he got lost in his own paranoia.



The reason I did spare him was because Riordian said "there are compelling reasons". I wanted to know what they were so I did it, and I didnt overcare that Alistair left the wardens since he was never on my team anyway.



<spoilers>

Its up to a person to decide but the best ending is really seeing Loghain in that last minute realize what he had done, and seeing him want to put things right one last time impressed me.



Alistair on the other hand, just wants out of being king, or escaping a sense of survivors guilt. Still powerful, but overall it felt like a cop out.



<Raises Flame Sheilds>

[Khavos]

Sarah1281 wrote...

You know, all this 'do you want to be the ONE guy who doesn't step up to the plate' doesn't really strike me as a very good argument for the US being selfless. It's basically saying you're worried about your freaking image and you don't want everyone else to secretly think you're a coward.

Then you might be taking it a little too seriously.  If I were worried about my image I probably wouldn't be discussing the in-game ethics of an RPG on an RPG forum.

Again, the only real-life analogy that springs readily to mind is jumping on a grenade.  If I were in a room full of friends and a grenade rolled in, would I jump on it?  No idea.  I like to think I would.  If I didn't and someone else did, though, I'd certainly feel guilty for not having been the one to do it.  If I had a whole couple days or however long the march to Denerim took to consider it and still let someone else do it instead of me?  Yeah, I definitely wouldn't like the aftermath.

I'm sorry that I think letting Alistair do it is a cowardly way of resolving the Blight.  No need to get worked up about it, though.  

[Sarah1281]

phaonica wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I find the whole idea of you being a coward in the way you end the Blight ludicrous as, guess what, you END THE BLIGHT. Being a coward means you wouldn't even bother to show up and leave Ferelden to its fate.

You may end the blight, but you in turn potentially put a lot of people right back into danger. Are you saying that at that point they are no longer your problem because, hey, you ended the Blight and that's your only job.

It is not my problem when it's no one's problem as it's not causing problems. Once the OGB decides to conquer Thedas and I'm still around and in fighting condition I'd try to do something about it. We don't KNOW if it will really be a problem as we don't know all that much about it. Unless it can only be killed by a GW as well, it will likely just be a powerful mage that my character isn't enough of a Mary Sue to believe she's the only one who can stop it.

[Sarah1281]

Khavos wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

You know, all this 'do you want to be the ONE guy who doesn't step up to the plate' doesn't really strike me as a very good argument for the US being selfless. It's basically saying you're worried about your freaking image and you don't want everyone else to secretly think you're a coward.

Then you might be taking it a little too seriously.  If I were worried about my image I probably wouldn't be discussing the in-game ethics of an RPG on an RPG forum.

Again, the only real-life analogy that springs readily to mind is jumping on a grenade.  If I were in a room full of friends and a grenade rolled in, would I jump on it?  No idea.  I like to think I would.  If I didn't and someone else did, though, I'd certainly feel guilty for not having been the one to do it.  If I had a whole couple days or however long the march to Denerim took to consider it and still let someone else do it instead of me?  Yeah, I definitely wouldn't like the aftermath.

I'm sorry that I think letting Alistair do it is a cowardly way of resolving the Blight.  No need to get worked up about it, though.  

I never have Alistair do it. I always do the DR. That would be like if someone else in that room could stop the grenade from going off but insisted on taking it with them where, one day, they could very well throw it at other people. Do you commit suicide because they might one day years from now use that grenade to kill people or do you have more faith in your friend and let her disable it for you? 

[Khavos]

phaonica wrote...
If your character hates Loghain, chances are you won't let him live long enough to find out that a Warden is required to kill the Archdemon. And how is it more heroic and less cowardly to metagame him into taking the bullet for you, just to save your own butt?

That's what I meant.  I could see the logic of giving a great hero of Ferelden the opportunity to redeem himself - if he ever made it that far, which would be tough to justify from a purely in-game perspective unless you were just completely apathetic to the slaughter at Ostagar or really, really credulous as far as Riordan goes.  So in the end it comes down to Alistair or the PC. 

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

How is it cowardly you are both Grey Wardens? You both have the same responsibility. It doesn't matter who dies or lives long as the Blight is over. I could see it being irresponsible if you nominated him King and let him sacrifice. There is no cowardice at all with any of the endings.

[Khavos]

Sarah1281 wrote...
I never have Alistair do it. I always do the DR. That would be like if someone else in that room could stop the grenade from going off but insisted on taking it with them where, one day, they could very well throw it at other people. Do you commit suicide because they might one day years from now use that grenade to kill people or do you have more faith in your friend and let her disable it for you? 

That depends.  Is my friend a sociopath raised by Jeffrey Dahmer with the knowledge and ability to turn that grenade into a nuke?  

[Sarah1281]

Khavos wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
I never have Alistair do it. I always do the DR. That would be like if someone else in that room could stop the grenade from going off but insisted on taking it with them where, one day, they could very well throw it at other people. Do you commit suicide because they might one day years from now use that grenade to kill people or do you have more faith in your friend and let her disable it for you? 

That depends.  Is my friend a sociopath raised by Jeffrey Dahmer with the knowledge and ability to turn that grenade into a nuke?  

Oh please. Morrigan is hardly a sociopath and she's not looking to end the world as we know it.

[Khavos]

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

How is it cowardly you are both Grey Wardens? You both have the same responsibility. It doesn't matter who dies or lives long as the Blight is over. I could see it being irresponsible if you nominated him King and let him sacrifice. There is no cowardice at all with any of the endings.

Not a bad argument, but I think Riordan set the precedent that the senior Grey Warden is supposed to take first crack at it.  You could make the argument that Alistair's technically senior to you, having been a Warden longer, but given that he deferred to you all throughout the story, it'd be difficult to think of him as the one in charge between the two of you.

[Giggles_Manically]

So to save my own butt, I must do something that is the very definition of risky to the extreme in the hope of living another thirty years?

Thats not sane, that is well just plain risky. May not be the definition of cowardice, but if anyone takes the DR so as to avoid death then it is.



Personally if someone sits on the DR or something that can risk a friend or a lovers very soul, just for having a better chance to get it, than I am not so sure I would trust them.



Far too many risks, variables, unknowns, and other detractions from the DR for me to even consider it.

[Khavos]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Oh please. Morrigan is hardly a sociopath and she's not looking to end the world as we know it.

I'd say she certainly is a sociopath.  As for wanting to end the world?  Who knows.  She does want power, though, and she has Flemeth's grimoire and the soul of an Old God to get it with in the Dark Ritual ending. 

[phaonica]

Sarah1281 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I find the whole idea of you being a coward in the way you end the Blight ludicrous as, guess what, you END THE BLIGHT. Being a coward means you wouldn't even bother to show up and leave Ferelden to its fate.

You may end the blight, but you in turn potentially put a lot of people right back into danger. Are you saying that at that point they are no longer your problem because, hey, you ended the Blight and that's your only job.

It is not my problem when it's no one's problem as it's not causing problems. Once the OGB decides to conquer Thedas and I'm still around and in fighting condition I'd try to do something about it. We don't KNOW if it will really be a problem as we don't know all that much about it. Unless it can only be killed by a GW as well, it will likely just be a powerful mage that my character isn't enough of a Mary Sue to believe she's the only one who can stop it.

If you don't think the risk is too high, then that's fine. My character does. If the OGB *did* turn out to be some kind of powerful mage, or a shapeshifting dragon monster, if it turned out to be any kind of creature that wanted to hurt people, my character would feel responsible for those deaths that she could have easily prevented. And saying that I might not even be around for those deaths so they're not my problem is not a good enough argument for her, she'd still feel responsible.

Oh please. Morrigan is hardly a sociopath and she's not looking to end the world as we know it.

You are right, I don't think Morrigan wants to hurt people. But I also think that she would lie to me. I don't know what someone with the soul of an old god could even do with it. For my character, the better option is to not risk it.

[Giggles_Manically]

Morrigan fits some of the criteria for a sociopath -

Does not really care about what happens to others



However a sociopath appears normal by faking regular emotions. So unless Morrigan was faking actually caring for the warden ( Gaider said she actually does care for the warden) she does not fit the clinical mold for a sociopath.

[phaonica]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Morrigan fits some of the criteria for a sociopath -
Does not really care about what happens to others

However a sociopath appears normal by faking regular emotions. So unless Morrigan was faking actually caring for the warden ( Gaider said she actually does care for the warden) she does not fit the clinical mold for a sociopath.

Does that one exception negate the definition? Besides, I don't think it's entirely necessary to argue the definition of the word. She does seem to care about herself more than others (except for the warden) which is fine, and actually makes me lean towards that she wouldn't do anythign with the OGB that would put herself in danger. It also leads me to believe that she's not exactly looking to do anything epically selfless with it, either.

[Sarah1281]

Sociopaths have emotions, they just lack empathy and an ability to internalize a system of morality. They could know it's immoral to, say, light a kitten on a fire but only because that's what society says and not because they themselves have a problem with it.

[Giggles_Manically]

What a sociopath acts like:

Persistent lying or stealing YES

Apparent lack of remorse or empathy for others YES

Cruelty to animals NO

Poor behavioral controls — expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper YES

A history of childhood conduct disorder Possible

Recurring difficulties with the law YES

Tendency to violate the boundaries and rights of others YES

Substance abuse NO

Aggressive, often violent behavior; prone to getting involved in fights POSSIBLE

Inability to tolerate boredom NO

Disregard for safety NO



Someone cant fit a mold, and get labeled with one, unless they meet them.



If Morrigan can be compared to anything its an archtypical Sith.

[KnightofPhoenix]

There is obvious risks involving the DR. But also potential benefits. If what Morrigan says is true and the DR frees an old God from the taint, this OGB can possibly search for and free the other 2 gods and avert the last remaining blights. It can go either way and it's too early to judge the act *properly*. All we can do is speculate. One who does not trust Morrigan will evidently have a harder time doing the DR than one who does.

Also, an OGB creating an Empire and uniting Thedas would not be considered bad or tragic by myself, unless excessive abuse of power becomes common place. But Morrigan never seemed, to me, to be abusive with her power. But it remains to be seen.

[Khavos]

phaonica wrote...

Does that one exception negate the definition? Besides, I don't think it's entirely necessary to argue the definition of the word. She does seem to care about herself more than others (except for the warden) which is fine, and actually makes me lean towards that she wouldn't do anythign with the OGB that would put herself in danger. It also leads me to believe that she's not exactly looking to do anything epically selfless with it, either.

I don't see the question as whether or not you trust Morrigan, but whether or not you trust Flemeth.  Morrigan herself says that Flemeth taught her the ritual; the Wardens were saved at Ostagar and Morrigan was sent along with them with the ritual as her goal from the start.  For whatever reason, Flemeth wanted the Old God baby.  With Flemeth out of the picture, Morrigan still wants it.  It'd be a stretch to think her reason for wanting it is totally dissimilar to Flemeth's.   

[phaonica]

Khavos wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Does that one exception negate the definition? Besides, I don't think it's entirely necessary to argue the definition of the word. She does seem to care about herself more than others (except for the warden) which is fine, and actually makes me lean towards that she wouldn't do anythign with the OGB that would put herself in danger. It also leads me to believe that she's not exactly looking to do anything epically selfless with it, either.

I don't see the question as whether or not you trust Morrigan, but whether or not you trust Flemeth.  Morrigan herself says that Flemeth taught her the ritual; the Wardens were saved at Ostagar and Morrigan was sent along with them with the ritual as her goal from the start.  For whatever reason, Flemeth wanted the Old God baby.  With Flemeth out of the picture, Morrigan still wants it.  It'd be a stretch to think her reason for wanting it is totally dissimilar to Flemeth's.   

That's true, too. Not only that, but if Flemeth wanted the old god for something, Flemeth isn't gone and is probably eventually going to come looking for it again. If Flemeth managed to retake the old god's soul, what would she do with it? Do we trust her?

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

There is obvious risks involving the DR. But also potential benefits. If what Morrigan says is true and the DR frees an old God from the taint, this OGB can possibly search for and free the other 2 gods and avert the last remaining blights. It can go either way and it's too early to judge the act *properly*. All we can do is speculate. One who does not trust Morrigan will evidently have a harder time doing the DR than one who does.
Also, an OGB creating an Empire and uniting Thedas would not be considered bad or tragic by myself, unless excessive abuse of power becomes common place. But Morrigan never seemed, to me, to be abusive with her power. But it remains to be seen.

If she wanted to do something good with the OGB, why would she say she doesn't wish to tell me about it? After she lets you know that she doesn't want to tell you the truth, it's hard to believe any explanation she gives you after that. And it's just hard for me to picture that Morrigan's grand scheme is something excessively selfless.

[Sarah1281]

Morrigan doesn't have to have selfless intentions in order to not have disastrous ones. Flemeth likely wanted the Old God to increase her own power but since she's gone - for now at least - it really is more about what Morrigan would do with it.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 29 juillet 2010 - 10:08 .

[CalJones]

Well, we know (in a meta sense) that Flemeth isn't gone as she shows up in DA2. Looking younger and sexier, apparently...