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[Terastar]

KnightofPhoenix several pages back mentioned something that has always bothered me and everyone just dismisses it.

I have always found it strange that Riordan must have his own agenda that we are still not fully aware of.

Why if we need more wardens does he not back up when Alistair is executed or leaves?

Why all of a sudden did we have Archdemon blood for the joining of Loghain but when we ask about making more wardens there are done?

I don't know about you but I smell a wolf in the hen house.

God maybe has some sub plot going on here me thinks for his book or next rp adventure for us.

[Sarah1281]

Well, before the Landsmeet he wouldn't have had access to the materials for the Joining ritual that he said Loghain and Howe took from him and afterwards, he would. Admittedly, he wouldn't know that the materials weren't destroyed unless Anora knew and told him and that might explain why she jumped on the idea so quickly: she had a feeling it was coming from talking to Riordan and telling him about the supplies.



Also, Riordan just made the suggestion that they needed more Wardens given that there were only three of you and someone needed to kill the Archdemon. He chooses to ultimately leave the decision up to you and the net sum of Alistair leaving/dying is the same as Loghain dying. There's three Wardens regardless and he's already said his piece. Since he mentions that one of the reasons for wanting Loghain is increasing the number of Wardens, you already know that argument so there's little point repeating it when it comes to trying to keep Alistair around.

[Giggles_Manically]

Or the writers put in a plot hammer device to keep the variables reasonable

Or Riordian is really an giant Ponce who fails worse than Spider Man 3.

[Khavos]

Terastar wrote...

KnightofPhoenix several pages back mentioned something that has always bothered me and everyone just dismisses it.
I have always found it strange that Riordan must have his own agenda that we are still not fully aware of.
Why if we need more wardens does he not back up when Alistair is executed or leaves?

I'm not sure what you mean.  Alistair being executed or leaving leads to Loghain becoming a Warden, so you still have three.  His ideal would be having four, but that's not possible due to plot.

Why all of a sudden did we have Archdemon blood for the joining of Loghain but when we ask about making more wardens there are done?

When we rescue him, he informs us that all of his stuff was stolen.  He gets it back after the Landsmeet, so he could make more Wardens after that.

I don't know about you but I smell a wolf in the hen house.

Yeah, I don't.  The guy was in Ferelden for about an hour and a half before he cheerfully volunteered to be the first to die, and followed through on it. 

Of course, I may be biased, as he's one of my favorite characters for being the embodiment of a Grey Warden.  He sneaks into a hostile country alone during a darkspawn invasion, going from the Orlais border to Denerim, largely ignores the ****** Fereldens doing their best to get themselves swallowed up by the Blight, and hops on to the back of an archdemon.  Guy's okay in my book.

[FiliusMartis]

The thing is, unless you're playing the "oh it's a game" card, there's no guarantee that Loghain is going to survive the Joining. If Alistair goes off in a hissy fit or gets his head lopped off before Loghain does the ritual, then there's a fair chance that you can end up with just two grey wardens rather than the three you previously had, in which case.... whoops Riordan.

It would be most prudent to pull the Warden Commander and Alistair to the side and tell them why they need extra bodies, but that would kill the big reveal later. It might not even work because Alistair might assert that Loghain doesn't deserve to slay the archdemon and be hailed as a hero after what he's done, and I would agree. Part of it is game mechanics, and part of it is that Riordan just doesn't seem to be the brightest crayon in the box. All that time in the dungeon did something to him. D=

[SirOccam]

Khavos wrote...

I don't know about you but I smell a wolf in the hen house.

Yeah, I don't.  The guy was in Ferelden for about an hour and a half before he cheerfully volunteered to be the first to die, and followed through on it. 

Of course, I may be biased, as he's one of my favorite characters for being the embodiment of a Grey Warden.  He sneaks into a hostile country alone during a darkspawn invasion, going from the Orlais border to Denerim, largely ignores the ****** Fereldens doing their best to get themselves swallowed up by the Blight, and hops on to the back of an archdemon.  Guy's okay in my book.

I have to agree with Khavos. Riordan's a badass. For all the reasons Khavos listed and more. He and Duncan just epitomize Grey Warden badassitude to me.

[Terastar]

I don't know something still just doesn't feel right to me. He's a Grey warden and he is in the first prison section you get to and with only one guard. How convent for you. You can't tell from the other room that any torture has went on yet he claims he needs healing. Even at Denerim he is stupid to try to kill the Archdemon himself and doesn't seem to really want you to take out the generals first to make for a better chance to actually be able to get at and kill the Archdemon. To me it seems like his mission is to make sure that Fereldon falls to the blight. Something just seems off to me.

[Sarah1281]

How does it seem like that? He doesn't do anything at all to sabotage you. Yes he never tells you things in a timely manner but without him you wouldn't know at all and yes he gets himself killed but first he forces the Archdemon to land or you'd never take it out and the lack of help his death is could have been easily achieved...by not showing up at all.

[Khavos]

Terastar wrote...

I don't know something still just doesn't feel right to me. He's a Grey warden and he is in the first prison section you get to and with only one guard. How convent for you. You can't tell from the other room that any torture has went on yet he claims he needs healing. Even at Denerim he is stupid to try to kill the Archdemon himself and doesn't seem to really want you to take out the generals first to make for a better chance to actually be able to get at and kill the Archdemon. To me it seems like his mission is to make sure that Fereldon falls to the blight. Something just seems off to me.

So you're saying that this plan was to try and let Ferelden fall to the Blight - he's from Highever, remember - and in order to do this, he jumped onto a flying archdemon and jammed his sword into it a half dozen times before falling to his death?  Doesn't sound likely.

[Lord Coake]

For my main play through, Loghain didn't live to attempt the joining. My main's a female City Elf, and of all the Origins, it's CE's that have every reason to put Loghain in a hole.

[jpdipity]

Terastar wrote...

I don't know something still just doesn't feel right to me. He's a Grey warden and he is in the first prison section you get to and with only one guard. How convent for you. You can't tell from the other room that any torture has went on yet he claims he needs healing. Even at Denerim he is stupid to try to kill the Archdemon himself and doesn't seem to really want you to take out the generals first to make for a better chance to actually be able to get at and kill the Archdemon. To me it seems like his mission is to make sure that Fereldon falls to the blight. Something just seems off to me.

I think this mess has more to do with the developers wanting to force the hand of the PC to make a hard choice than the storyline.

However, if I look past it being a game - strictly as a story - I completely agree with you.  His behavior, what and when he chooses to reveal information is very suspicious.  Not sure if his end goal was for Fereldon to fall to the blight or something else, but if I assume that everything he does is for a reason (and not for the developers), I think it is clear that he has ulterior motives for his actions.

[Sarah1281]

Here's what makes no sense about the 'Riordan is trying to sabotage Ferelden's ability to fight the Blight' theory: Is Ferelden's ability to fight the Blight in any way hampered by his presence? Would they be better off if he'd never arrived? Since the support of that theory seems to be that he never does anything and might as well not be there, I disagree. In fact, if he weren't there then you wouldn't have known that a GW has to kill the Archdemon at all and if, say, Sten were closer then he might have just killed it and had the creature be reborn instead of letting you or Alistair do it. Sure, Morrigan could have told you when she mentioned the ritual and probably would have, but she doesn't seem to think you'd believed her and even if you did, what reason would Riordan possibly have to think that she knew at all?



So yes, Riordan's help was minimal but he was the one who told you that the hoard was moving on Denerim, he was the one who suggested Loghain if you went with that for whatever reason, he was the one who told you about the Archdemon, and he was the one who wounded the Archdemon's wing forcing it to land and allowing it to be killed by you on the top of Fort Drakon. Keeping in mind he'd spent several months tortured and we have no idea how competent he was to begin with, but he was, in fact, aiding you rather than sabotaging you.

[TJPags]

Hey, I know!!!!!!!



Riordan is that Orlesian invasion Loghain was so worried about!!!!!!!! He's come to conquer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

Hey, I know!!!!!!!

Riordan is that Orlesian invasion Loghain was so worried about!!!!!!!! He's come to conquer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Or what about....Riordan was sent to convince everyone that Orlesians were incompetent so no one would be prepared for the actual invasion that will take place in a few years! 

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Hey, I know!!!!!!!

Riordan is that Orlesian invasion Loghain was so worried about!!!!!!!! He's come to conquer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Or what about....Riordan was sent to convince everyone that Orlesians were incompetent so no one would be prepared for the actual invasion that will take place in a few years! 

I'm telling ya, I've now changed my tune about Loghain.  He was right all along - the Orlesian DID invade.

I mean, what is it that Riordan does when that scheming invader gets into the Landsmeet???  He tells you to spare Loghain!!!!

Dastardly plan!!!  Not only does it make the rightful King run off to be a drunkard, effectively taking away his ability to rule Ferelden, but he ensures that Loghain will never know a moments peace as he sees his beloved Ferelden swallowed by the Orelsian horde that is Riordan.

[Bahlgan]

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Hey, I know!!!!!!!

Riordan is that Orlesian invasion Loghain was so worried about!!!!!!!! He's come to conquer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Or what about....Riordan was sent to convince everyone that Orlesians were incompetent so no one would be prepared for the actual invasion that will take place in a few years! 

I'm telling ya, I've now changed my tune about Loghain.  He was right all along - the Orlesian DID invade.

I mean, what is it that Riordan does when that scheming invader gets into the Landsmeet???  He tells you to spare Loghain!!!!

Dastardly plan!!!  Not only does it make the rightful King run off to be a drunkard, effectively taking away his ability to rule Ferelden, but he ensures that Loghain will never know a moments peace as he sees his beloved Ferelden swallowed by the Orelsian horde that is Riordan.

Hahaha that is actually a funny, yet very formidable, way of looking at it. I don't think it's actually TRUE, but you never know eh? lol Congratulations on that well thought of plan though!! 

[Khavos]

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Hey, I know!!!!!!!

Riordan is that Orlesian invasion Loghain was so worried about!!!!!!!! He's come to conquer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Or what about....Riordan was sent to convince everyone that Orlesians were incompetent so no one would be prepared for the actual invasion that will take place in a few years! 

I'd say he was fairly competent.  He did more damage to the Blight during the hour and a half he was in Ferelden than Loghain did in months.  

[MKDAWUSS]

Is it just me, or does Riordan sometimes talk to Loghain as if he were Alistair? "You're both new recruits. Duncan wouldn't have told you..." Wait, why would Duncan tell Loghain that a GW is required to KO an AD? Then again, most post-Landsmeet material is kinda sloppy and generic in comparison to the rest of the game IMO.

[MKDAWUSS]

Bahlgan wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Hey, I know!!!!!!!

Riordan is that Orlesian invasion Loghain was so worried about!!!!!!!! He's come to conquer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Or what about....Riordan was sent to convince everyone that Orlesians were incompetent so no one would be prepared for the actual invasion that will take place in a few years! 

I'm telling ya, I've now changed my tune about Loghain.  He was right all along - the Orlesian DID invade.

I mean, what is it that Riordan does when that scheming invader gets into the Landsmeet???  He tells you to spare Loghain!!!!

Dastardly plan!!!  Not only does it make the rightful King run off to be a drunkard, effectively taking away his ability to rule Ferelden, but he ensures that Loghain will never know a moments peace as he sees his beloved Ferelden swallowed by the Orelsian horde that is Riordan.

Hahaha that is actually a funny, yet very formidable, way of looking at it. I don't think it's actually TRUE, but you never know eh? lol Congratulations on that well thought of plan though!! 

And then to send Loghain to Orlais must be part of the master plan...

[Bahlgan]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Bahlgan wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Hey, I know!!!!!!!

Riordan is that Orlesian invasion Loghain was so worried about!!!!!!!! He's come to conquer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Or what about....Riordan was sent to convince everyone that Orlesians were incompetent so no one would be prepared for the actual invasion that will take place in a few years! 

I'm telling ya, I've now changed my tune about Loghain.  He was right all along - the Orlesian DID invade.

I mean, what is it that Riordan does when that scheming invader gets into the Landsmeet???  He tells you to spare Loghain!!!!

Dastardly plan!!!  Not only does it make the rightful King run off to be a drunkard, effectively taking away his ability to rule Ferelden, but he ensures that Loghain will never know a moments peace as he sees his beloved Ferelden swallowed by the Orelsian horde that is Riordan.

Hahaha that is actually a funny, yet very formidable, way of looking at it. I don't think it's actually TRUE, but you never know eh? lol Congratulations on that well thought of plan though!! 

And then to send Loghain to Orlais must be part of the master plan...

Heh heh deporting Loghain to Orlais to live the rest of his life would be worse after the Blight is quelled 

[Zjarcal]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Is it just me, or does Riordan sometimes talk to Loghain as if he were Alistair? "You're both new recruits. Duncan wouldn't have told you..." Wait, why would Duncan tell Loghain that a GW is required to KO an AD? Then again, most post-Landsmeet material is kinda sloppy and generic in comparison to the rest of the game IMO.

The dialog after the Landsmeet is horrendously bugged. There's a scenario where Loghain will speak from the dead (hilarious!) and Alistair will constantly refer to himself as King even if he isn't. In that case you mention, the game is assuming that Alistair is alive and triggers that line, or perhaps there simply is no alternative line in case Loghain was recruited.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 05 août 2010 - 04:06 .

[Sarah1281]

The line does fit a little. Loghain is a new recruit who did know Duncan but since he became a Warden after Duncan's death and the GW's are very secret-happy Duncan never told him.