497 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
I agree.  There's really no reason to spare him at all, except to do it for the goof, or to try something different.

In your opinion. Three words that people ought to use more.

For instance, imo, there is no reason sufficient enough for me to want to kill Loghain.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
I agree.  There's really no reason to spare him at all, except to do it for the goof, or to try something different.

In your opinion. Three words that people ought to use more.

For instance, imo, there is no reason sufficient enough for me to want to kill Loghain.

Not even, he hired an assasin to kill you?  Seems a damn good reason to kill him.

IMO.   

[Sarah1281]

HOWE hired the assassin. Loghain was just like 'God, I don't even care.'

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

HOWE hired the assassin. Loghain was just like 'God, I don't even care.'

Maybe I'm just a vengeful, violent person by nature, but if someone walks into a meeting with someone else, and suggests hiring an assassin to kill me, and that someone else says "meh, fine with me if you want to" . . . . well, they're BOTH on the hit list.

[Zjarcal]

Sarah1281 wrote...

HOWE hired the assassin. Loghain was just like 'God, I don't even care.'

He even seems surprised about the whole ordeal:

"An Assassin?!"

And then it's like, bah, just leave me alone:

"Just get it done"

[Sarah1281]

He probably figured Howe would keep pestering him about it and eventually do it anyway so he was just saving time by not arguing.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
I agree.  There's really no reason to spare him at all, except to do it for the goof, or to try something different.

In your opinion. Three words that people ought to use more.

For instance, imo, there is no reason sufficient enough for me to want to kill Loghain.

Not even, he hired an assasin to kill you?  Seems a damn good reason to kill him.

IMO.   

Ignoring the fact that this assassin turned out to be one of my favorite companions, the assassin was sent for good reasons, we were enemies.
Nothing personal, it was just business. No where near sufficient enough for me to want to kill him. Not when he yields.  

[TJPags]

Zjarcal wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

HOWE hired the assassin. Loghain was just like 'God, I don't even care.'

He even seems surprised about the whole ordeal:

"An Assassin?!"

And then it's like, bah, just leave me alone:

"Just get it done"

There's the quote.

By "Just get it done", can he really mean anything else but "just get the warden dead already, will you?"

[Zjarcal]

TJPags wrote...

By "Just get it done", can he really mean anything else but "just get the warden dead already, will you?"

Not really. But like KoP said, it wasn't personal and if you could find it in you to spare Zevran (who is also one of my favorite companions), I can't see why you wouldn't do the same for Loghain.

But then again you said you were vengeful and violent....

Modifié par Zjarcal, 30 juillet 2010 - 04:09 .

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
I agree.  There's really no reason to spare him at all, except to do it for the goof, or to try something different.

In your opinion. Three words that people ought to use more.

For instance, imo, there is no reason sufficient enough for me to want to kill Loghain.

Not even, he hired an assasin to kill you?  Seems a damn good reason to kill him.

IMO.   

Ignoring the fact that this assassin turned out to be one of my favorite companions, the assassin was sent for good reasons, we were enemies.
Nothing personal, it was just business. No where near sufficient enough for me to want to kill him. Not when he yields.  

And my killing him is also just business - he's a pshychotic paranoid power monger - not what the world needs just now.

Besides, you're talking to someone who finds it more fun (IMO, of course) to watch Alistair storm out of the room . . yet generally, I'd still kill Loghain, since the choice I'm given is, kill Loghain (who allowed the king to die, framed my order for it, usurped the throne, brought about a civil war, imprisoned nobles for personal gain, was complicit in killing nobles for personal gain, condoned slavery, oh, and tried to have me killed) or lose Alistair, who, while sometimes annoying, still did what needed to be done throughout the whole game.

[Sarah1281]

I don't think Loghain imprisoned any nobles, Howe did. Whether or not Loghain knew of this (though if he didn't that's really negligent) is uncertain.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sure, when did I ever say that killing Loghain is an invalid choice?

But I don't go running around saying that there is no reason to kill him in absolute, in the process implying that all those who do kill him are being "goofy".

I will not get into my 102740197th Loghain debate. I will just skip to my general conclusion. There are various reasons to kill or spare him, and that depends on each individual player and also each individual PC, imo.

[TJPags]

Zjarcal wrote...

TJPags wrote...

By "Just get it done", can he really mean anything else but "just get the warden dead already, will you?"

Not really. But like KoP said, it wasn't personal and if you could find it in you to spare Zevran (who is also one of my favorite companions), I can't see why you wouldn't do the same for Loghain.

But then again you said you were vengeful and violent....

True, I spare Zev.

The difference?  Zev did one thing - try to kill me.  But then, it's his job, and he was hired to do his job.  He doesn't know me, doesn't care why someone wants me dead, it's a job to him.  To Logain, it's a political and personal agenda.

Also, Zev gets the option later to help me or try to kill me again - trust me, he'll me the first one I target if I ever play through to where he betrays me in favor of Tallesin.

[Daryn Mercio]

Khavos wrote...

So I'm finally nearing the end of my first-ever playthrough, and I've browsed the Wiki and the forums enough to know what all's going to happen.  Trouble is, I'm having a hard time deciding which options I want.  I'd like to keep my PC alive for Awakening, but I think the Dark Ritual is a horrible choice.  Forcing Alistair to be the guy to take the bullet would just be a little more cowardly than I've played my character, so letting Loghain redeem himself seems like the best option.

Trouble is, I see absolutely no reason other than Riordan piping up to ever let it get to that point.  Loghain's been a douche, and it's difficult finding a motivation to let him live past the Landsmeet.  Punching Loghain in the face with an axe is just too tempting, but that means going for an Ultimate Sacrifice ending.  Which is, honestly, the way I think most Grey Warden stories ought to go; these guys exist to fight the Blight and kill archdemons, knowing full well what it costs them.  You'd think they'd be jumping at the chance to be a hero rather than politicking to get someone else to get killed.  

So help convince me that Ultimate Sacrifice isn't the only non-cowardly option.

First, you can have your Warden die and get him into awakening.
Loghain deserves to die IMO
And Wardens NEVER join knowing they are destined to die to kill the arch-demon. Grey wardens are fabled as great heroes and warriors that have sworn to fight off the darkspawn, and some believe joining is for glory. It is exaggerated how much fame you'll get for being a warden, but if you kill the archdemon, you become revered as a hero of the ages.
Anyways, the Dark Ritual is the best option IMO because:
You're Warden isn't doing it just to get away with death, you can play as if he did it just because he loved Morrigan so much he wanted one more night together. Or even as a dutiful gesture. If you make sure your warden lives on to continue making the world safer, it isn't cowardly at all. (Both of these were reasons for my HN to do the DR)
Now, Reasons Loghain deserves to be killed in SHAME:
1) Loghain deserves justice, not to become a martyr to regain his honor after nearly dooming Ferelden multiple times with the scraps you get into with his mercenaries and followers. As Alistair said, recruiting Loghain, into the Wardens just poisons its ranks.
2) Loghain is the reason so many of your brothers and Alistairs only real family that cared were overran by the Darkspawn at Ostagar.
If Loghain is willing to leave Ferelden unprepared against the Darkspawn to deal with (false) threats from Orlais and for his pride to take down the Bannorn and become a despot, then he already has clouded judgement and is unfit for war anyway (Of course he proves to be okay as a companion, but your Warden doesn't know that until at the very end, so in my mind it would be risky in a real situation)

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't think Loghain imprisoned any nobles, Howe did. Whether or not Loghain knew of this (though if he didn't that's really negligent) is uncertain.

Loghain is in charge.  Howe works for him.

What Howe does, he does in Loghain's name.  If he doesn't do it with Loghain's explicit approval, the approval is implicit, because Loghain allows him to have that power.

Howee hires the assassin, with Loghain in the room, saying nothing against it, and agreeing in the end.  Howe brings the assassin to him as a "solution to your Grey Warden problem".
Howe imprisons nobles (not sure it's done without explicit approval, but whatever) and Loghain doesn't inquire.
 
Besides, that doesn't invalidate any other reason I gave.

[Sarah1281]

If Loghain is willing to leave Ferelden unprepared against the Darkspawn to deal with (false) threats from Orlais and for his pride to take down the Bannorn and become a despot, then he already has clouded judgement and is unfit for war anyway

I disagree with that. How would throwing away his troops by sending them into a massacre be preparing Fereldn against the Blight?

[Elessara]

I don't know exactly but does Alistair make it quite clear that he'll leave if you recruit Loghain before you actually recruit him or does he hit you with that after you make the final decision?

[Daryn Mercio]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't think Loghain imprisoned any nobles, Howe did. Whether or not Loghain knew of this (though if he didn't that's really negligent) is uncertain.

Arl Howe's only illegal exploit Loghain didn't know about was the overtakign of Cousland Castle, everything else was under the free reign and guarantee of immunity from Loghain because he needed some nobles to support him without force (Although he is a Teyrn, his force still doesn't outnumber all of the banns and arls)

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

If Loghain is willing to leave Ferelden unprepared against the Darkspawn to deal with (false) threats from Orlais and for his pride to take down the Bannorn and become a despot, then he already has clouded judgement and is unfit for war anyway

I disagree with that. How would throwing away his troops by sending them into a massacre be preparing Fereldn against the Blight?

Who says it would have been a massacre?

[Daryn Mercio]

Sarah1281 wrote...

If Loghain is willing to leave Ferelden unprepared against the Darkspawn to deal with (false) threats from Orlais and for his pride to take down the Bannorn and become a despot, then he already has clouded judgement and is unfit for war anyway

I disagree with that. How would throwing away his troops by sending them into a massacre be preparing Fereldn against the Blight?

He could have sacrificed his soldiers to save at least a few competent grey wardens, because you and alistair are far from competent to begin with (level 5-6 at the end of ostagar)
And I forgot to mention his King AND son-in-law were down there, it is his duty to protect his king.

[Daryn Mercio]

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

If Loghain is willing to leave Ferelden unprepared against the Darkspawn to deal with (false) threats from Orlais and for his pride to take down the Bannorn and become a despot, then he already has clouded judgement and is unfit for war anyway

I disagree with that. How would throwing away his troops by sending them into a massacre be preparing Fereldn against the Blight?

Who says it would have been a massacre?

Thank you for mentioning that as well