497 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't think Loghain imprisoned any nobles, Howe did. Whether or not Loghain knew of this (though if he didn't that's really negligent) is uncertain.

Loghain is in charge.  Howe works for him.

What Howe does, he does in Loghain's name.  If he doesn't do it with Loghain's explicit approval, the approval is implicit, because Loghain allows him to have that power.

Howee hires the assassin, with Loghain in the room, saying nothing against it, and agreeing in the end.  Howe brings the assassin to him as a "solution to your Grey Warden problem".
Howe imprisons nobles (not sure it's done without explicit approval, but whatever) and Loghain doesn't inquire.
 
Besides, that doesn't invalidate any other reason I gave.

I didn't say it did invalidate your other reasons. If you had said "Howe betrays and murders friends, massacres elves, kicks puppies, and sent an assassin after you" and I pointed out that we have no reason to believe that he has ever kicked a puppy, that's not me saying the Cousland massacre, what happened at the Alienage, and Zevran never happened.

I'm not sure that, if Loghain didn't know about the tortured nobles (and I'm inclined to think he didn't abecause the guy's father was Loghain's ally and it's too risky), you can really blame him for that. He had no reason to go touring Howe's dungeon and while Loghain gave Howe power even after knowing some negative things about him including, if you're the HN, what he did at Highever, giving a man power is not the same as telling him he's allowed to do whatever he wants. If he knew about the torture and didn't say anything at all that's implicit consent. Ignorance of the matter is not consent of any sort.

[Daryn Mercio]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
I agree.  There's really no reason to spare him at all, except to do it for the goof, or to try something different.

In your opinion. Three words that people ought to use more.

For instance, imo, there is no reason sufficient enough for me to want to kill Loghain.

Not even, he hired an assasin to kill you?  Seems a damn good reason to kill him.

IMO.   

Ignoring the fact that this assassin turned out to be one of my favorite companions, the assassin was sent for good reasons, we were enemies.
Nothing personal, it was just business. No where near sufficient enough for me to want to kill him. Not when he yields.  

Him yielding is a cowards move. ?He wished death upon you, yet he doesn't have the balls to have the tables turned on him

[Sarah1281]

Daryn Mercio wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

If Loghain is willing to leave Ferelden unprepared against the Darkspawn to deal with (false) threats from Orlais and for his pride to take down the Bannorn and become a despot, then he already has clouded judgement and is unfit for war anyway

I disagree with that. How would throwing away his troops by sending them into a massacre be preparing Fereldn against the Blight?

Who says it would have been a massacre?

Thank you for mentioning that as well

Return to Ostagar did. Even Wynne, who hates him, admitted that after the mages fled things started going downhilll very quickly and then backs off about Loghain being able to save the day.

Plus I don't care if Cailan was the King: I do not believe that Loghain had a duty to leave Ferelden completely defenseless against the Blight because Cailan insisted on putting himself on the front lines.

[Daryn Mercio]

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't think Loghain imprisoned any nobles, Howe did. Whether or not Loghain knew of this (though if he didn't that's really negligent) is uncertain.

Loghain is in charge.  Howe works for him.

What Howe does, he does in Loghain's name.  If he doesn't do it with Loghain's explicit approval, the approval is implicit, because Loghain allows him to have that power.

Howee hires the assassin, with Loghain in the room, saying nothing against it, and agreeing in the end.  Howe brings the assassin to him as a "solution to your Grey Warden problem".
Howe imprisons nobles (not sure it's done without explicit approval, but whatever) and Loghain doesn't inquire.
 
Besides, that doesn't invalidate any other reason I gave.

I didn't say it did invalidate your other reasons. If you had said "Howe betrays and murders friends, massacres elves, kicks puppies, and sent an assassin after you" and I pointed out that we have no reason to believe that he has ever kicked a puppy, that's not me saying the Cousland massacre, what happened at the Alienage, and Zevran never happened.

I'm not sure that, if Loghain didn't know about the tortured nobles (and I'm inclined to think he didn't abecause the guy's father was Loghain's ally and it's too risky), you can really blame him for that. He had no reason to go touring Howe's dungeon and while Loghain gave Howe power even after knowing some negative things about him including, if you're the HN, what he did at Highever, giving a man power is not the same as telling him he's allowed to do whatever he wants. If he knew about the torture and didn't say anything at all that's implicit consent. Ignorance of the matter is not consent of any sort.

No, Loghains ally is the bald guy who sits at the table ACROSS from the bann of dragons peak (whos son was on the stretcher in Howes dungeons)

[Sarah1281]

Daryn Mercio wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
I agree.  There's really no reason to spare him at all, except to do it for the goof, or to try something different.

In your opinion. Three words that people ought to use more.

For instance, imo, there is no reason sufficient enough for me to want to kill Loghain.

Not even, he hired an assasin to kill you?  Seems a damn good reason to kill him.

IMO.   

Ignoring the fact that this assassin turned out to be one of my favorite companions, the assassin was sent for good reasons, we were enemies.
Nothing personal, it was just business. No where near sufficient enough for me to want to kill him. Not when he yields.  

Him yielding is a cowards move. ?He wished death upon you, yet he doesn't have the balls to have the tables turned on him

'Doesn't have the balls'? The terms of the duel were not to the death and as it happens if you or Alistair kills Loghain it happens after the duel was over. Not to mention he doesn't try to fight it if you call for his head.

[Daryn Mercio]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Daryn Mercio wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

If Loghain is willing to leave Ferelden unprepared against the Darkspawn to deal with (false) threats from Orlais and for his pride to take down the Bannorn and become a despot, then he already has clouded judgement and is unfit for war anyway

I disagree with that. How would throwing away his troops by sending them into a massacre be preparing Fereldn against the Blight?

Who says it would have been a massacre?

Thank you for mentioning that as well

Return to Ostagar did. Even Wynne, who hates him, admitted that after the mages fled things started going downhilll very quickly and then backs off about Loghain being able to save the day.

Plus I don't care if Cailan was the King: I do not believe that Loghain had a duty to leave Ferelden completely defenseless against the Blight because Cailan insisted on putting himself on the front lines.

Wynne is a sorry excuse for a person because she takes situations too lightly. And the mages probably fled after Loghain didn't do his duty, so it's his fault the Circle is put into more disarray (Uldreds revolt)

[Sarah1281]

Daryn Mercio wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't think Loghain imprisoned any nobles, Howe did. Whether or not Loghain knew of this (though if he didn't that's really negligent) is uncertain.

Loghain is in charge.  Howe works for him.

What Howe does, he does in Loghain's name.  If he doesn't do it with Loghain's explicit approval, the approval is implicit, because Loghain allows him to have that power.

Howee hires the assassin, with Loghain in the room, saying nothing against it, and agreeing in the end.  Howe brings the assassin to him as a "solution to your Grey Warden problem".
Howe imprisons nobles (not sure it's done without explicit approval, but whatever) and Loghain doesn't inquire.
 
Besides, that doesn't invalidate any other reason I gave.

I didn't say it did invalidate your other reasons. If you had said "Howe betrays and murders friends, massacres elves, kicks puppies, and sent an assassin after you" and I pointed out that we have no reason to believe that he has ever kicked a puppy, that's not me saying the Cousland massacre, what happened at the Alienage, and Zevran never happened.

I'm not sure that, if Loghain didn't know about the tortured nobles (and I'm inclined to think he didn't abecause the guy's father was Loghain's ally and it's too risky), you can really blame him for that. He had no reason to go touring Howe's dungeon and while Loghain gave Howe power even after knowing some negative things about him including, if you're the HN, what he did at Highever, giving a man power is not the same as telling him he's allowed to do whatever he wants. If he knew about the torture and didn't say anything at all that's implicit consent. Ignorance of the matter is not consent of any sort.

No, Loghains ally is the bald guy who sits at the table ACROSS from the bann of dragons peak (whos son was on the stretcher in Howes dungeons)

No, I'm not wrong here and I'm not quite that stupid as to mix them up, either. Ceorlic was the guy sitting across from him and he is Loghain's ally no matter what you do but Sighard was Loghain's ally until his son returned and told him that Howe was keeping him prisoner. The son even tells you in the dungeon that his father must not know what a snake his ally was.

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Daryn Mercio wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

If Loghain is willing to leave Ferelden unprepared against the Darkspawn to deal with (false) threats from Orlais and for his pride to take down the Bannorn and become a despot, then he already has clouded judgement and is unfit for war anyway

I disagree with that. How would throwing away his troops by sending them into a massacre be preparing Fereldn against the Blight?

Who says it would have been a massacre?

Thank you for mentioning that as well

Return to Ostagar did. Even Wynne, who hates him, admitted that after the mages fled things started going downhilll very quickly and then backs off about Loghain being able to save the day.

Plus I don't care if Cailan was the King: I do not believe that Loghain had a duty to leave Ferelden completely defenseless against the Blight because Cailan insisted on putting himself on the front lines.

Does Wynn mention WHEN the mages started fleeing?  I honestly don't recall exactly what she says.

Even if they DID start to flee before Loghain left, who knows if they'd have stopped had they seen him actually doing what he was supposed to.

[Daryn Mercio]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Daryn Mercio wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
I agree.  There's really no reason to spare him at all, except to do it for the goof, or to try something different.

In your opinion. Three words that people ought to use more.

For instance, imo, there is no reason sufficient enough for me to want to kill Loghain.

Not even, he hired an assasin to kill you?  Seems a damn good reason to kill him.

IMO.   

Ignoring the fact that this assassin turned out to be one of my favorite companions, the assassin was sent for good reasons, we were enemies.
Nothing personal, it was just business. No where near sufficient enough for me to want to kill him. Not when he yields.  

Him yielding is a cowards move. ?He wished death upon you, yet he doesn't have the balls to have the tables turned on him

'Doesn't have the balls'? The terms of the duel were not to the death and as it happens if you or Alistair kills Loghain it happens after the duel was over. Not to mention he doesn't try to fight it if you call for his head.

It wasn't said it wasn't to the death, but about his head being called, he really has no choice. he is surrounded. Even a lunatic would rather die with a little dignity by going willingly rather than fighting everyone else and possibly doing more to hurt his country by killing a bann or something (He does love Ferelden more than any other character I know)

[KnightofPhoenix]

Daryn Mercio wrote...

Him yielding is a cowards move. ?He wished death upon you, yet he doesn't have the balls to have the tables turned on him

I don't see him realising who the better man who can protect Ferelden is and yielding to that person to be a sign of cowardice imo. In fact, Loghain accepting his death, relieved that Ferelden would be in good hands, is seen by me to be an act of great bravery.

But you can go ahead and think that.
I really don't want to waste my time arguing this. Been there, done that hundreds of times already.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 juillet 2010 - 04:35 .

[Sarah1281]

jln.francisco wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

If Loghain is willing to leave Ferelden unprepared against the Darkspawn to deal with (false) threats from Orlais and for his pride to take down the Bannorn and become a despot, then he already has clouded judgement and is unfit for war anyway

I disagree with that. How would throwing away his troops by sending them into a massacre be preparing Fereldn against the Blight?

Because he was told to.

He was ordered by his commanding officer to wait for the signal to attack. He recieved the signal (later then expected but the military is about hurry up and wait) and refused to answer it. The darkspwan didn't have some unbeatable position. Sure they had the Tower but all the King needed that for was signalling Loghain's rush. (yes it sucks being that guy on the suicide mission. Trust me, I know.) 

Loghain had a lot of soldiers (and if he weren't an idiot he'd have had a whole lot more) and attacking someone from the rear, even if they have the advantage in the direction they are attacking, gives you a serious edge. Breaking their formations, routing troops and isolating them from their commanders would have given the Warden's a serious edge.

Plus the Archdemon wasn't even there!

I'm not saying Loghain should have sulked about being on a suicide mission and refused to go. I'm saying that if he had gone then he wouldn't have saved anyone and Eamon would have basically had the bulk of the Ferelden army made up of his men as the massacre would have been even worse.

Daryn Mercio wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Daryn Mercio wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

If Loghain is willing to leave Ferelden unprepared against the Darkspawn to deal with (false) threats from Orlais and for his pride to take down the Bannorn and become a despot, then he already has clouded judgement and is unfit for war anyway

I disagree with that. How would throwing away his troops by sending them into a massacre be preparing Fereldn against the Blight?

Who says it would have been a massacre?

Thank you for mentioning that as well

Return to Ostagar did. Even Wynne, who hates him, admitted that after the mages fled things started going downhilll very quickly and then backs off about Loghain being able to save the day.

Plus I don't care if Cailan was the King: I do not believe that Loghain had a duty to leave Ferelden completely defenseless against the Blight because Cailan insisted on putting himself on the front lines.

Wynne is a sorry excuse for a person because she takes situations too lightly. And the mages probably fled after Loghain didn't do his duty, so it's his fault the Circle is put into more disarray (Uldreds revolt)

No, Wynne - who would know having been one of the seven mages at Ostagar and standing by the others - admits that they left before the beacon was lit. Loghain wasn't even supposed to charge until then and didn't retreat until afterwards. The mages left first.

And you can't blame Loghain for Uldred getting possessed. That's why things were so demonic there: the demon possessing Uldred summoned them.

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Daryn Mercio wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
I agree.  There's really no reason to spare him at all, except to do it for the goof, or to try something different.

In your opinion. Three words that people ought to use more.

For instance, imo, there is no reason sufficient enough for me to want to kill Loghain.

Not even, he hired an assasin to kill you?  Seems a damn good reason to kill him.

IMO.   

Ignoring the fact that this assassin turned out to be one of my favorite companions, the assassin was sent for good reasons, we were enemies.
Nothing personal, it was just business. No where near sufficient enough for me to want to kill him. Not when he yields.  

Him yielding is a cowards move. ?He wished death upon you, yet he doesn't have the balls to have the tables turned on him

'Doesn't have the balls'? The terms of the duel were not to the death and as it happens if you or Alistair kills Loghain it happens after the duel was over. Not to mention he doesn't try to fight it if you call for his head.

Sope, the duel wasn't to the death, that's true.  Of course, the only reason there WAS a duel is because Loghain refused to accept the vote of the Landsmeet.

And as to consent - while ignorance is not consent, CHOSEN ignorance sure is pretty damn close.  And I have no doubt Loghain never looked to closely into what Howe was doing - look at what was going on with Anora.

[Zjarcal]

Elessara wrote...

I don't know exactly but does Alistair make it quite clear that he'll leave if you recruit Loghain before you actually recruit him or does he hit you with that after you make the final decision?

I don't remember correctly, but I think after he states his desire to leave if Loghain is recruited you have one last chance to make a decision (I think).

[Daryn Mercio]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Daryn Mercio wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't think Loghain imprisoned any nobles, Howe did. Whether or not Loghain knew of this (though if he didn't that's really negligent) is uncertain.

Loghain is in charge.  Howe works for him.

What Howe does, he does in Loghain's name.  If he doesn't do it with Loghain's explicit approval, the approval is implicit, because Loghain allows him to have that power.

Howee hires the assassin, with Loghain in the room, saying nothing against it, and agreeing in the end.  Howe brings the assassin to him as a "solution to your Grey Warden problem".
Howe imprisons nobles (not sure it's done without explicit approval, but whatever) and Loghain doesn't inquire.
 
Besides, that doesn't invalidate any other reason I gave.

I didn't say it did invalidate your other reasons. If you had said "Howe betrays and murders friends, massacres elves, kicks puppies, and sent an assassin after you" and I pointed out that we have no reason to believe that he has ever kicked a puppy, that's not me saying the Cousland massacre, what happened at the Alienage, and Zevran never happened.

I'm not sure that, if Loghain didn't know about the tortured nobles (and I'm inclined to think he didn't abecause the guy's father was Loghain's ally and it's too risky), you can really blame him for that. He had no reason to go touring Howe's dungeon and while Loghain gave Howe power even after knowing some negative things about him including, if you're the HN, what he did at Highever, giving a man power is not the same as telling him he's allowed to do whatever he wants. If he knew about the torture and didn't say anything at all that's implicit consent. Ignorance of the matter is not consent of any sort.

No, Loghains ally is the bald guy who sits at the table ACROSS from the bann of dragons peak (whos son was on the stretcher in Howes dungeons)

No, I'm not wrong here and I'm not quite that stupid as to mix them up, either. Ceorlic was the guy sitting across from him and he is Loghain's ally no matter what you do but Sighard was Loghain's ally until his son returned and told him that Howe was keeping him prisoner. The son even tells you in the dungeon that his father must not know what a snake his ally was.

Oh damn sorry, I got confused about which snake his ally was. But still, his subordinate imprisoned a banns son, which falls upon him as his responsibility. Also, who knows, perhaps Loghain may have known and kept him as collateral until he was formally recognized as the king

[Sarah1281]

Of course, the only reason there WAS a duel is because Loghain refused to accept the vote of the Landsmeet.

That's not fair. When you lose the Landsmeet you do the same thing. Neither of you is willing to accept a vote not in your favor.

[TJPags]

Let me add to to the killing nobles aspect - he SURE as h*ll sent Jowan to kill Eamon. The fact that Jowan failed had nothing to do with Loghains intentions.

[Sarah1281]

Oh damn sorry, I got confused about which snake his ally was. But still, his subordinate imprisoned a banns son, which falls upon him as his responsibility. Also, who knows, perhaps Loghain may have known and kept him as collateral until he was formally recognized as the king

Collateral works a hell of a lot better when the person you're using your hostage against knows that you have them and Sighard didn't.

[Daryn Mercio]

Sarah1281 wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

If Loghain is willing to leave Ferelden unprepared against the Darkspawn to deal with (false) threats from Orlais and for his pride to take down the Bannorn and become a despot, then he already has clouded judgement and is unfit for war anyway

I disagree with that. How would throwing away his troops by sending them into a massacre be preparing Fereldn against the Blight?

Because he was told to.

He was ordered by his commanding officer to wait for the signal to attack. He recieved the signal (later then expected but the military is about hurry up and wait) and refused to answer it. The darkspwan didn't have some unbeatable position. Sure they had the Tower but all the King needed that for was signalling Loghain's rush. (yes it sucks being that guy on the suicide mission. Trust me, I know.) 

Loghain had a lot of soldiers (and if he weren't an idiot he'd have had a whole lot more) and attacking someone from the rear, even if they have the advantage in the direction they are attacking, gives you a serious edge. Breaking their formations, routing troops and isolating them from their commanders would have given the Warden's a serious edge.

Plus the Archdemon wasn't even there!

I'm not saying Loghain should have sulked about being on a suicide mission and refused to go. I'm saying that if he had gone then he wouldn't have saved anyone and Eamon would have basically had the bulk of the Ferelden army made up of his men as the massacre would have been even worse.

Daryn Mercio wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Daryn Mercio wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

If Loghain is willing to leave Ferelden unprepared against the Darkspawn to deal with (false) threats from Orlais and for his pride to take down the Bannorn and become a despot, then he already has clouded judgement and is unfit for war anyway

I disagree with that. How would throwing away his troops by sending them into a massacre be preparing Fereldn against the Blight?

Who says it would have been a massacre?

Thank you for mentioning that as well

Return to Ostagar did. Even Wynne, who hates him, admitted that after the mages fled things started going downhilll very quickly and then backs off about Loghain being able to save the day.

Plus I don't care if Cailan was the King: I do not believe that Loghain had a duty to leave Ferelden completely defenseless against the Blight because Cailan insisted on putting himself on the front lines.

Wynne is a sorry excuse for a person because she takes situations too lightly. And the mages probably fled after Loghain didn't do his duty, so it's his fault the Circle is put into more disarray (Uldreds revolt)

No, Wynne - who would know having been one of the seven mages at Ostagar and standing by the others - admits that they left before the beacon was lit. Loghain wasn't even supposed to charge until then and didn't retreat until afterwards. The mages left first.

And you can't blame Loghain for Uldred getting possessed. That's why things were so demonic there: the demon possessing Uldred summoned them.

Loghain poisons uldred further by tellign him he will be the first enchanter, which leads Uldred to taking advantage of the situation and attempting to take the tower

[Elessara]

@TJPags



When you go to the tower of magi during the Broken Circle if you talk to the male mage that was helping Wynne defend the children he will tell you that when Wynne returned to the Circle she told them what Loghain had done. Which implies that the mages fled AFTER Loghain's betrayal, else how would Wynne know what had happened? All she would have heard was that Loghain had to withdraw because the Grey Wardens had led the king into a trap .

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Of course, the only reason there WAS a duel is because Loghain refused to accept the vote of the Landsmeet.

That's not fair. When you lose the Landsmeet you do the same thing. Neither of you is willing to accept a vote not in your favor.

Having never lost the Landsmeet, I can't say.

But just because I may do the same - and I believe you on that - doesn't make it right.

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

Let me add to to the killing nobles aspect - he SURE as h*ll sent Jowan to kill Eamon. The fact that Jowan failed had nothing to do with Loghains intentions.

No he didn't. Word of God says he sent Jowan to poison him but he was supposed to be revived once Loghain had finished confronting Cailan since Eamon was Cailan's biggest supporter. If the goal was to kill Eamon then why wasn't he dead? Slow-acting poisons are riskier and it would have been simple for Jowan to slip him something that would have actually killed him and not left him to waste away and give Connor time to get possessed.

[Daryn Mercio]

Zjarcal wrote...

Elessara wrote...

I don't know exactly but does Alistair make it quite clear that he'll leave if you recruit Loghain before you actually recruit him or does he hit you with that after you make the final decision?

I don't remember correctly, but I think after he states his desire to leave if Loghain is recruited you have one last chance to make a decision (I think).

you can say "wait riordan is right"
alistair gets mad
then you agree with riordan the wardens need everyoen they can get
He gets angrier and tells you it would poison the wardens and that if loghain is in, he is out, then you get one more chance to choose

[Zjarcal]

TJPags wrote...

Let me add to to the killing nobles aspect - he SURE as h*ll sent Jowan to kill Eamon. The fact that Jowan failed had nothing to do with Loghains intentions.

Actually, I believe David Gaider once clarified this by saying that Loghain's intention wasn't to kill Eamon, just to keep him subdued for a while.

EDIT: Damn...

Modifié par Zjarcal, 30 juillet 2010 - 04:41 .