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[Daryn Mercio]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Oh damn sorry, I got confused about which snake his ally was. But still, his subordinate imprisoned a banns son, which falls upon him as his responsibility. Also, who knows, perhaps Loghain may have known and kept him as collateral until he was formally recognized as the king

Collateral works a hell of a lot better when the person you're using your hostage against knows that you have them and Sighard didn't.

I meant in case Bann Sighard decided to switch votes.

[TJPags]

Elessara wrote...

@TJPags

When you go to the tower of magi during the Broken Circle if you talk to the male mage that was helping Wynne defend the children he will tell you that when Wynne returned to the Circle she told them what Loghain had done. Which implies that the mages fled AFTER Loghain's betrayal, else how would Wynne know what had happened? All she would have heard was that Loghain had to withdraw because the Grey Wardens had led the king into a trap .

Thank you.

So, the mages fleeing had less to do with it being a massacre then his choice.

Yet another nail in his coffin.

[Elessara]

@Zjarcal

If it's true that you know Alistair will leave before you make the final decision to recruit Loghain then it is actually pretty illogical that you do so. Riordan states that you need as many Grey Wardens as possible. At that point you don't know that Loghain will survive the Joining unless you metagame. So it doesn't really make sense to trade someone who is already a Grey Warden for someone you don't even know will survive to become one.

[Daryn Mercio]

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Let me add to to the killing nobles aspect - he SURE as h*ll sent Jowan to kill Eamon. The fact that Jowan failed had nothing to do with Loghains intentions.

No he didn't. Word of God says he sent Jowan to poison him but he was supposed to be revived once Loghain had finished confronting Cailan since Eamon was Cailan's biggest supporter. If the goal was to kill Eamon then why wasn't he dead? Slow-acting poisons are riskier and it would have been simple for Jowan to slip him something that would have actually killed him and not left him to waste away and give Connor time to get possessed.

Eamon wasn't dead because Connor had magical abilities and made a pact with a desire demon to sustain him in the case that connor allows the demon possession of his body

[Daryn Mercio]

Elessara wrote...

@Zjarcal
If it's true that you know Alistair will leave before you make the final decision to recruit Loghain then it is actually pretty illogical that you do so. Riordan states that you need as many Grey Wardens as possible. At that point you don't know that Loghain will survive the Joining unless you metagame. So it doesn't really make sense to trade someone who is already a Grey Warden for someone you don't even know will survive to become one.

Seems more a hole in the story, but yeah, I agree completely, I only recruited Loghain once, and I didn't like him so I reloaded an older save

[Zjarcal]

Elessara wrote...

@Zjarcal
If it's true that you know Alistair will leave before you make the final decision to recruit Loghain then it is actually pretty illogical that you do so. Riordan states that you need as many Grey Wardens as possible. At that point you don't know that Loghain will survive the Joining unless you metagame. So it doesn't really make sense to trade someone who is already a Grey Warden for someone you don't even know will survive to become one.

That is actually a good point from an RP perspective.

[Daryn Mercio]

jln.francisco wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Let me add to to the killing nobles aspect - he SURE as h*ll sent Jowan to kill Eamon. The fact that Jowan failed had nothing to do with Loghains intentions.

Actually, I believe David Gaider once clarified this by saying that Loghain's intention wasn't to kill Eamon, just to keep him subdued for a while.

This sounds like backpeddling imo but I can see the reasoning behind it. Before I had always written it off as Jowan either getting cold feet or botching the job.

No, during the Redcliffe questline it is said that the demon sustains him

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Let me add to to the killing nobles aspect - he SURE as h*ll sent Jowan to kill Eamon. The fact that Jowan failed had nothing to do with Loghains intentions.

No he didn't. Word of God says he sent Jowan to poison him but he was supposed to be revived once Loghain had finished confronting Cailan since Eamon was Cailan's biggest supporter. If the goal was to kill Eamon then why wasn't he dead? Slow-acting poisons are riskier and it would have been simple for Jowan to slip him something that would have actually killed him and not left him to waste away and give Connor time to get possessed.

Zjarcal wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Let me add to to the killing nobles aspect - he SURE as h*ll sent Jowan to kill Eamon. The fact that Jowan failed had nothing to do with Loghains intentions.

Actually, I believe David Gaider once clarified this by saying that Loghain's intention wasn't to kill Eamon, just to keep him subdued for a while.

EDIT: Damn...

I assume you both mean the same thing.  I'll respond:

If so, who cares?  The game sure never said anything about incapacitate for a while, or just subdue, or use slow acting poison so he's just sick, then we'll fix him later.

Game says, Loghain sent Jowan to poison Eamon.  Game says, Eamon is on the verge of death due to that poisoning, and can only be revived by a mystical, may not even exist object (the Ashes).

That all adds up to - trying to kill, IMO.

What they may have meant, and what they said, were different - if it wasn't, they wouldn't have needed to clarify, would they? 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elessara wrote...

@Zjarcal
If it's true that you know Alistair will leave before you make the final decision to recruit Loghain then it is actually pretty illogical that you do so. Riordan states that you need as many Grey Wardens as possible. At that point you don't know that Loghain will survive the Joining unless you metagame. So it doesn't really make sense to trade someone who is already a Grey Warden for someone you don't even know will survive to become one.

If the game allowed me to imprison Alistair and proceed with Loghain's joining, that would have been my choice.
It's the game being limited and getting out of its way to tell you that you will have either one or the other.

But it's a valid RP stance, for sure.  

[Zjarcal]

TJPags wrote...

Game says, Loghain sent Jowan to poison Eamon.  Game says, Eamon is on the verge of death due to that poisoning, and can only be revived by a mystical, may not even exist object (the Ashes).

That all adds up to - trying to kill, IMO.

What they may have meant, and what they said, were different - if it wasn't, they wouldn't have needed to clarify, would they? 

I hear you.

What you learn in the game doesn't suggest anything other than Loghain wanted Eamon dead. Still, I was just pointing out that Loghain's real intention wasn't that.

[Daryn Mercio]

jln.francisco wrote...

Daryn Mercio wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Let me add to to the killing nobles aspect - he SURE as h*ll sent Jowan to kill Eamon. The fact that Jowan failed had nothing to do with Loghains intentions.

Actually, I believe David Gaider once clarified this by saying that Loghain's intention wasn't to kill Eamon, just to keep him subdued for a while.

This sounds like backpeddling imo but I can see the reasoning behind it. Before I had always written it off as Jowan either getting cold feet or botching the job.

No, during the Redcliffe questline it is said that the demon sustains him

I understand that but, I'm pretty sure a Blood Mage could come up with something that was instantly deadly rather then the drawn out ordeal Eamon went through. The fact that Connor had the oppurtunity to make the pact means Eamon had to be down for a while. Much longer then an assassin should take to finish a job.

Yeah, but you and I both know that Jowan is a wuss who obviously regrets using blood magic because his girlfriend Lily is sent to the Aeonar (Mage prison where templars do sadistic stuff I'd imagine).
I think the poison couldn't possibly have killed him SO quick that Connor wouldn't have time to confront a demon for help. either way, it doesn't matter, Loghain is to blame for nearly killing Eamon, whether he meant to or not. I'm sure its illegal to send an assassin after anyone
Oh damn, I just remembered, assassin means he was sent to KILL, not put into a coma (which would kill him anyways because there are no tubes to put food and water into him back then)

[Elessara]

@KnightofPhoenix

If I'd had a way of pulling Riordan and Alistair aside and having him explain to us then and there why he thought more Grey Wardens were so darn necessary when so far 2 had done just fine, I'd have done that. But yeah it's the game forcing us to make a choice as we're probably meant to infer that Loghain will survive even if we don't know it.

[TJPags]

Zjarcal wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Game says, Loghain sent Jowan to poison Eamon.  Game says, Eamon is on the verge of death due to that poisoning, and can only be revived by a mystical, may not even exist object (the Ashes).

That all adds up to - trying to kill, IMO.

What they may have meant, and what they said, were different - if it wasn't, they wouldn't have needed to clarify, would they? 

I hear you.

What you learn in the game doesn't suggest anything other than Loghain wanted Eamon dead. Still, I was just pointing out that Loghain's real intention wasn't that.

Agreed.  If they meant something different, they messed up.

I play each character individually - he knows what he knows, and that's all he knows.  Not what creators say, not what he learned in other playthroughs, etc.  So I always act only on what I've seen in that game.

Sure, you can validly look at other information and choose differently, or have a different view, but that's not my way.

After all, the a better solution might have been, have Loghain do the joining, on the condition that once the blight is ended, he's executed or imprisoned.  That may have placated Alistair.  But we don't get that choice.

[phaonica]

Elessara wrote...

@KnightofPhoenix
If I'd had a way of pulling Riordan and Alistair aside and having him explain to us then and there why he thought more Grey Wardens were so darn necessary when so far 2 had done just fine, I'd have done that. But yeah it's the game forcing us to make a choice as we're probably meant to infer that Loghain will survive even if we don't know it.

Yeah, I blame Riordan. The man had plenty of opportunity to fill us in. He didn't even try to fix things if a player is  having Alistair executed over it. wtf.

[Elessara]

Ha phaonica ... good point!



Riordan: We need more wardens!

PC: Ok I'll recruit Loghain.

Anora: I'm executing Alistair!

Riordan: .... *looks around whistling innocently*

Player: Wait, what?

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...

Elessara wrote...

@KnightofPhoenix
If I'd had a way of pulling Riordan and Alistair aside and having him explain to us then and there why he thought more Grey Wardens were so darn necessary when so far 2 had done just fine, I'd have done that. But yeah it's the game forcing us to make a choice as we're probably meant to infer that Loghain will survive even if we don't know it.

Yeah, I blame Riordan. The man had plenty of opportunity to fill us in. He didn't even try to fix things if a player is  having Alistair executed over it. wtf.

The better question is. Why didn't Duncan tell that to Alistair, despite being a warden for 6 months?
Is there a time delay for when such an information is revealed?

Seeing how Duncan didn't have a lot of Wardens in Ferelden, him not telling Alistair about the most important thing about the Wardens is quite frankly stupid.  

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Elessara wrote...

@KnightofPhoenix
If I'd had a way of pulling Riordan and Alistair aside and having him explain to us then and there why he thought more Grey Wardens were so darn necessary when so far 2 had done just fine, I'd have done that. But yeah it's the game forcing us to make a choice as we're probably meant to infer that Loghain will survive even if we don't know it.

Yeah, I blame Riordan. The man had plenty of opportunity to fill us in. He didn't even try to fix things if a player is  having Alistair executed over it. wtf.

The better question is. Why didn't Duncan tell that to Alistair, despite being a warden for 6 months?
Is there a time delay for when such an information is revealed?

Seeing how Duncan didn't have a lot of Wardens in Ferelden, him not telling Alistair about the most important thing about the Wardens is quite frankly stupid.  

Yeah, no joke. I understand that Duncan didn't get around to telling me, but it seems like he would have told Alistair at some point. Or that it might have come up in conversation between the wardens. Alistair managed to gather the "only live 30 years" info, why not the archdemon info? *especially* since the blight was right there

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

A little late on this point, but didn't DG say himself that Ostagar was not winnable even had Loghain stayed? Duncan sheltered Alistair I think that is his character flaw he probably didn't want to worry/put more pressure on his golden boy Alistair. You think Alistair would of took it well if he knew Duncan may die at any moment slaying the Archdemon. No Alistair would do stupid things to protect Duncan.

[phaonica]

Elessara wrote...

Ha phaonica ... good point!

Riordan: We need more wardens!
PC: Ok I'll recruit Loghain.
Anora: I'm executing Alistair!
Riordan: .... *looks around whistling innocently*
Player: Wait, what?

Yeah, if there was a good time to say Oh Holy Crap, Hold On. That was it. He intervened in Loghain's execution but not Alistair's? I realize that the devs wanted to you have to choose one or the other and not get both, but this was really not the highlight of the game's writing.

Still, I would rather this than not having the chance to recruit Loghain at all.

[Elessara]

Wouldn't you do something stupid to protect the only person you believe has ever cared about you in your entire life? But then again maybe Alistair wouldn't have tried to protect Duncan if it came to Duncan killing the archdemon. I could see it going either way depending on the circumstances.

Having writers clarify things about the game though doesn't really help making in game decisions if you're trying to RP. If you play your character as believing the battle was winnable then nothing really changes. It seems to me there are a few possibilities:

1) The battle was winnable except Loghain withdrew.

2) The battle was unwinnable and Cailan knew it if you believe what the guy in RtO says.

3) The battle was unwinnable and set up to be that way by Loghain because he wanted Cailan dead.

4) The battle was unwinnable cause Loghain sucked at defending.



There are probably more options but it's late and I'm too tired to think about it more. At any rate number 2 does not make any sense to me especially with what you know about Cailan. Cailan wanted to be a glorious hero to his people - he wanted to defeat the Blight and be revered as a savior like his father. That's just not going to happen if you die in an unwinnable battle. You might be considered a martyr but not a savior and not really a hero.

[Sarah1281]

You missed a rather obvious option five: The battle was unwinnable and even though it wasn't because Loghain sucked or planned it that way, Cailan didn't realize it.