Duncan did a lot of things that were stupid...such as recruiting Ser Jory.
The withholding of information is the thing that makes no sense to me...however, it is obviously a plot point since, had we known it from the start, it would have made the end much less dramatic.
As for Alistair, not only does Riordan not speak up about his execution, but nor dos Eamon or any of your party members (including Wynne who sees him as a surrogate son). That makes no sense to me - I'm assuming it's because of time constraints, but I'd rather hear your companions saying "wtf, warden...why did you do that?"
Re: Eamon's poisoning, D.Gaider speaks about that (and the Ostagar signal) here. I actually think Loghain should have just had him killed. It would have saved him a lot of complications later. I don't think much of Eamon, to be honest - he is a weak traditionalist in the same mould as Harrowmont, and he is also happy to use Alistair as a pawn by throwing him away when his stupid Orlesian trollop stamps her feet but then trying to push him onto the throne when Alistair clearly states that's not what he wants.
I'm not going to defend Loghain because I've done that a million times before, but I tend to agree with his views on the Orlesians and fully sympathise with him wanting to keep them out of the country. Outlawing the wardens had more to do with the fact they were bringing legions of chevaliers with them from Orlais and he didn't want them coming into the country than because he had some personal vendetta against the Warden and Alistair. (If you've read the Calling, you'll find out exactly why he mistrusts the wardens, and his reasons are pretty sound in that context, anyway).
So...about Loghain...
Débuté par
Khavos
, juil. 29 2010 04:14
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#152
Posté 30 juillet 2010 - 05:26
Elessara
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In which case Loghain retreated because he wanted Cailan dead. Which sort of ties into number 3 but required no planning of making it unwinnable on Loghain's part. That sentence doesn't sound quite right but I think I got my point across.
#153
Posté 30 juillet 2010 - 05:30
Elessara
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I can see Loghain being really paranoid about the Orlesians. I haven't read The Stolen Throne but I know why - he lived during the occupation and he and his family suffered horribly under Orlesian rule. But if you need more troops and you hate the Orlesians .... hey, why not let them in to fight the darkspawn? Use them as canon fodder. Throw them at the darkspawn until they're all dead. It would save some of your own people, kill some Orlesians and the chevaliers couldn't cause any trouble after the Blight is over. Then you send a message back to the empress saying, "Yeah about those troops you sent us ..." And if you're really careful about it no one can say you sent them to their deaths on purpose.
#154
Posté 30 juillet 2010 - 05:33
Sarah1281
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About Loghain retreating to kill one man...he's not going to sacrifice the entire army when there were lots of easier ways to do it with less collateral damange.
#155
Posté 30 juillet 2010 - 05:35
KnightofPhoenix
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Elessara wrote...
I can see Loghain being really paranoid about the Orlesians. I haven't read The Stolen Throne but I know why - he lived during the occupation and he and his family suffered horribly under Orlesian rule. But if you need more troops and you hate the Orlesians .... hey, why not let them in to fight the darkspawn? Use them as canon fodder. Throw them at the darkspawn until they're all dead. It would save some of your own people, kill some Orlesians and the chevaliers couldn't cause any trouble after the Blight is over. Then you send a message back to the empress saying, "Yeah about those troops you sent us ..." And if you're really careful about it no one can say you sent them to their deaths on purpose.
You assume the Orlesians are stupid.
The Orlesians went in Nevarra during the third blight, under the pretext of helping. Of course, Nevarra was conquered by Orlais.
#156
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Posté 30 juillet 2010 - 05:36
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Sarah1281 wrote...
You missed a rather obvious option five: The battle was unwinnable and even though it wasn't because Loghain sucked or planned it that way, Cailan didn't realize it.
I don't see the battle as unwinnable. Duncan seemed, optimistic, but cautious. And they had responded in what I imagine to be record time with a hefty amount of troops.
I think the Darspawn strategy also reveals just how winnable the fight was. Rather then waiting for the charge and then launching a pincer attack of their own, the darkspawn attack the signal tower instead and try to prevent Loghain from getting involved in the fight. There's no reason to do this unless they didn't have the manpower at that time to handle the King/Wardens on one side and Loghain's heavy infantry on the other. They even went as far as sending an ogre (who are supposed to rare even during Blights) to prevent anyone from lighting the signal.
Plus the archdemon wasn't there. He was still underground at this time in relative safety. Ostagar was probably a test run of his to see how his men would fare against the surfacers.
#157
Posté 30 juillet 2010 - 05:36
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Well he wanted the wardens dead too. Ok rather his intent was to "protect Ferelden" from the Orlesians and he saw the wardens and Cailan as a threat because they wanted to let the Orlesians into Ferelden. I believe he has some conversations with Wynne about this. Talking about how much he lost when he abandoned the army at Ostagar that is.
#158
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Posté 30 juillet 2010 - 05:38
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Elessara wrote...
I can see Loghain being really paranoid about the Orlesians. I haven't read The Stolen Throne but I know why - he lived during the occupation and he and his family suffered horribly under Orlesian rule. But if you need more troops and you hate the Orlesians .... hey, why not let them in to fight the darkspawn? Use them as canon fodder. Throw them at the darkspawn until they're all dead. It would save some of your own people, kill some Orlesians and the chevaliers couldn't cause any trouble after the Blight is over. Then you send a message back to the empress saying, "Yeah about those troops you sent us ..." And if you're really careful about it no one can say you sent them to their deaths on purpose.
You assume the Orlesians are stupid.
The Orlesians went in Nevarra during the third blight, under the pretext of helping. Of course, Nevarra was conquered by Orlais.
This is exactly why Loghain would make a terrible leader against the Blight. He cares more about preserving borders then defeating the darkspawn.
#159
Posté 30 juillet 2010 - 05:46
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True enough KnightofPhoenix heh ... it would also depend under whose command the chevaliers were under. If they were under the command of the wardens then I would think it would be in the wardens best interest to insure the chevaliers left peacefully. As for Nevarra, I'm not sure how strong the Nevarran government was at the time or how weak they were after the Blight. But I assume the chevaliers going to Ferelden would be facing a stronger country/leadership than what the Orlesian and Tevinter forces faced in the Third Blight.
#160
Posté 30 juillet 2010 - 05:47
phaonica
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jln.francisco wrote...
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Elessara wrote...
I can see Loghain being really paranoid about the Orlesians. I haven't read The Stolen Throne but I know why - he lived during the occupation and he and his family suffered horribly under Orlesian rule. But if you need more troops and you hate the Orlesians .... hey, why not let them in to fight the darkspawn? Use them as canon fodder. Throw them at the darkspawn until they're all dead. It would save some of your own people, kill some Orlesians and the chevaliers couldn't cause any trouble after the Blight is over. Then you send a message back to the empress saying, "Yeah about those troops you sent us ..." And if you're really careful about it no one can say you sent them to their deaths on purpose.
You assume the Orlesians are stupid.
The Orlesians went in Nevarra during the third blight, under the pretext of helping. Of course, Nevarra was conquered by Orlais.
This is exactly why Loghain would make a terrible leader against the Blight. He cares more about preserving borders then defeating the darkspawn.
Seriously? He's a terrible leader because he wants to try to not let the country be so weakened by the Blight that Orlais could invade?
#161
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Posté 30 juillet 2010 - 05:49
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phaonica wrote...
jln.francisco wrote...
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Elessara wrote...
I can see Loghain being really paranoid about the Orlesians. I haven't read The Stolen Throne but I know why - he lived during the occupation and he and his family suffered horribly under Orlesian rule. But if you need more troops and you hate the Orlesians .... hey, why not let them in to fight the darkspawn? Use them as canon fodder. Throw them at the darkspawn until they're all dead. It would save some of your own people, kill some Orlesians and the chevaliers couldn't cause any trouble after the Blight is over. Then you send a message back to the empress saying, "Yeah about those troops you sent us ..." And if you're really careful about it no one can say you sent them to their deaths on purpose.
You assume the Orlesians are stupid.
The Orlesians went in Nevarra during the third blight, under the pretext of helping. Of course, Nevarra was conquered by Orlais.
This is exactly why Loghain would make a terrible leader against the Blight. He cares more about preserving borders then defeating the darkspawn.
Seriously? He's a terrible leader because he wants to try to not let the country be so weakened by the Blight that Orlais could invade?
It makes him the wrong person to lead the fight against a Blight.
That every decision he seems to make blows up big time is what makes him unfit to lead in general.
#162
Posté 30 juillet 2010 - 05:50
Elessara
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Actually I kind of agree that this makes him a bad leader. The Blight has the potential to destroy the world. It has to be stopped at all costs. If that cost is Ferelden freedom then truthfully that is a small price to pay.
Although this just occurred to me. Isn't it odd that the Blights only occur in Thedas? It's the southern continent but there's a big wide world out there. Why are the archdemons so intent on taking over just Thedas? Is that the only place darkspawn exist?
Although this just occurred to me. Isn't it odd that the Blights only occur in Thedas? It's the southern continent but there's a big wide world out there. Why are the archdemons so intent on taking over just Thedas? Is that the only place darkspawn exist?
#163
Posté 30 juillet 2010 - 05:53
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Loghain didn't know it was a blight until, it was too late.He doesn't havethe lulxury of seeing a dragon in his dreams.
#164
Posté 30 juillet 2010 - 05:56
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And he's also super suspicious of the Grey Wardens who said that it really was a Blight. If it had been me I would have believed an order of warriors whose sole purpose was to defeat the Blights but then I'm not as paranoid as Loghain. And it's hard not to metagame sometimes. Especially at 2 am when I have to work ... later ... today. Gah ... goodnight! lol
#165
Guest_jln.francisco_*
Posté 30 juillet 2010 - 05:58
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Loghain didn't know it was a blight until, it was too late.He doesn't havethe lulxury of seeing a dragon in his dreams.
No but he had the people who specialized in Blights telling him, this is a Blight.
Plus, it doesn't excuse his incompetence in every other area. How blind can you be to miss the entire southern portion of your nation is being burned to the ground by monsters? Even at the Landsmeet (the game takes over a year to reach this point) he still won't recognize it as a true Blight. The man is hopelessly lost in denial.
And he's a terrible soldier.
#166
Posté 30 juillet 2010 - 05:58
phaonica
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Well, he doesn't care about the world, he cares about Ferelden. And he would rather Ferelden fall to the Blight than to Orlais.
Modifié par phaonica, 30 juillet 2010 - 05:59 .
#167
Posté 30 juillet 2010 - 05:59
KnightofPhoenix
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The Wardens are heavily involved in the imperial court of Orlais. In fact the Orlesian Warden Commander in Awakening comes from the imperial court. It is not paranoia to suspect the Wardens being under Orlais' pay roll, even if it might be a misplaced suspicion.
And remember why the Wardens were expelled from Ferelden. They tried to engineer a coup D'etat.
Also, remember what happened at the Calling.
It would have been incredibly difficult for someone not to suspect the Wardens in some fashion. Loghain's suspicions might have been ultimately misplaced, but they were not without reason.
And remember why the Wardens were expelled from Ferelden. They tried to engineer a coup D'etat.
Also, remember what happened at the Calling.
It would have been incredibly difficult for someone not to suspect the Wardens in some fashion. Loghain's suspicions might have been ultimately misplaced, but they were not without reason.
#168
Posté 30 juillet 2010 - 05:59
Jacks Smirking Revenge
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Almost nobody believed it was a Blight other than the Grey Wardens until it was too late. I don't think you can blame Loghain for that fault. He also says it is a true Blight at the Landsmeet don't know what game you are playing lol.
#169
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Posté 30 juillet 2010 - 06:00
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phaonica wrote...
Well, he doesn't care about the world, he cares about Ferelden. And he would rather Ferelden fall to the Blight than to Orlais.
This is pretty much my point.
#170
Guest_jln.francisco_*
Posté 30 juillet 2010 - 06:03
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Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...
Almost nobody believed it was a Blight other than the Grey Wardens until it was too late. I don't think you can blame Loghain for that fault. He also says it is a true Blight at the Landsmeet don't know what game you are playing lol.
Memories a little foggy. I tend to hit esc. a lot during the Landsmeet. Listening to grown men rationalize their failures has always annoyed me.
Yeah I'm probably wrong. Don't know where I got the impression he was still in denial at that point. Hmm. I'll replay that section and see if it's my disdain for the man hurting my memory.
#171
Posté 30 juillet 2010 - 06:09
phaonica
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jln.francisco wrote...
phaonica wrote...
Well, he doesn't care about the world, he cares about Ferelden. And he would rather Ferelden fall to the Blight than to Orlais.
This is pretty much my point.
I think he would have been a worse leader if he'd invited in the Orlesians, knowing that they could take over when they were finished. I think a bad leader is one who doesn't even try to protect the country from further invasion.
#172
Posté 30 juillet 2010 - 06:09
Sarah1281
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If you say the Blight is the real threat and not Orlais and Wulf agrees, Loghain assures him that he knows that the Blight is a real threat but that you still aren't qualified to deal with it.
#173
Posté 30 juillet 2010 - 06:14
Jacks Smirking Revenge
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In a sense Loghain was right about not needing the Orlesians because well the Blight does end in Denerim. Why doesn't anyone ever give him credit for that 
. I agree too that Orlais would of steamrolled Fereldon if allowed in the borders to set up fortification and organize. Empress Celene backstabbed her way to the Orelsian throne according to the codex. I wouldn't doubt she was playing off of Cailain's ignorance as well.
. I agree too that Orlais would of steamrolled Fereldon if allowed in the borders to set up fortification and organize. Empress Celene backstabbed her way to the Orelsian throne according to the codex. I wouldn't doubt she was playing off of Cailain's ignorance as well.
#174
Guest_jln.francisco_*
Posté 30 juillet 2010 - 06:18
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Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...
In a sense Loghain was right about not needing the Orlesians because well the Blight does end in Denerim. Why doesn't anyone ever give him credit for that
My sarcasm meter must be on the frits again.
. I agree too that Orlais would of steamrolled Fereldon if allowed in the borders to set up fortification and organize. Empress Celene backstabbed her way to the Orelsian throne according to the codex. I wouldn't doubt she was playing off of Cailain's ignorance as well
That's the risk you run when trying to overcome a threat like the Darkspawn and I fail to see how Arl Howe was in anyway less of a risk. The man murders every man, woman and child in the Cousland Estate to ensure he gets a fancy new title added to his name and he's Loghain's right hand.
#175
Posté 30 juillet 2010 - 06:24
CelestialVanguard
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The Wardens are heavily involved in the imperial court of Orlais. In fact the Orlesian Warden Commander in Awakening comes from the imperial court. It is not paranoia to suspect the Wardens being under Orlais' pay roll, even if it might be a misplaced suspicion.
And remember why the Wardens were expelled from Ferelden. They tried to engineer a coup D'etat.
Also, remember what happened at the Calling.
It would have been incredibly difficult for someone not to suspect the Wardens in some fashion. Loghain's suspicions might have been ultimately misplaced, but they were not without reason.
Partially calling you out on their exile. The coup was secretly backed by the teyrns and arls when their choice of Ferelden's ruler turned around and bit them in the ass. Granted, it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if the coup succeeded, but it probably still wouldn't have turned out well.
