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[phaonica]

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

In a sense Loghain was right about not needing the Orlesians because well the Blight does end in Denerim. Why doesn't anyone ever give him credit for that .

I give him credit for it. If a country is going to fight for its independence, I would expect that it would fight to keep it too. Maybe he was trying to do something seemingly impossible, but he's been known to win impossible battles before.

I agree too that Orlais would of steamrolled Fereldon if allowed in the borders to set up fortification and organize. Empress Celene backstabbed her way to the Orelsian throne according to the codex. I wouldn't doubt she was playing off of Cailain's ignorance as well.

They could have easily conquered Ferelden, if they had wanted to, especially with Cailan as king.

[CalJones]

That was the point. If you read the secret correspondance in RtO, then Cailan was planning to ally with Orlais. Of course, the smaller Fereldan would just have been subsumed into the whole. At best it would have been a vassal state...at worst, Fereldan would cease to exist as a country in its own right. Cailan wasn't too smart about that...Celene was known for her political acumen and would have run rings around him. Whilst Loghain made a lot of mistakes, my opinion is that getting rid of Cailan, intentional or not, wasn't one of them.

[Persephone]

Khavos wrote...

Eh, I wound up doing the US, and I was pretty pleased with it.  The only other real option I'd consider would be Loghain, but there's just no way that guy lives past the Landsmeet.  It'd be like not gutting Howe in his basement.  

Howe and Loghain have very little in common. Comments such as these make me sad... Maybe Alistair's tantrums, my disgust at revenge at ALL costs and Loghain's surrender make me biased.... Or maybe I just don't want a woman having her father's blood smeared all over her. That is one of the most sickening scenes in the entire game to me. How one may watch it with pleasure, satisfaction or glee, I don't care to find out.

[Persephone]

Daryn Mercio wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
I agree.  There's really no reason to spare him at all, except to do it for the goof, or to try something different.

In your opinion. Three words that people ought to use more.

For instance, imo, there is no reason sufficient enough for me to want to kill Loghain.

Not even, he hired an assasin to kill you?  Seems a damn good reason to kill him.

IMO.   

Ignoring the fact that this assassin turned out to be one of my favorite companions, the assassin was sent for good reasons, we were enemies.
Nothing personal, it was just business. No where near sufficient enough for me to want to kill him. Not when he yields.  

Him yielding is a cowards move. ?He wished death upon you, yet he doesn't have the balls to have the tables turned on him

Yielding in a duel is anything but cowardly. Aknowledging defeat requires more "balls" than almost anything else.

[Khavos]

Persephone wrote...
Howe and Loghain have very little in common. Comments such as these make me sad... Maybe Alistair's tantrums, my disgust at revenge at ALL costs and Loghain's surrender make me biased.... Or maybe I just don't want a woman having her father's blood smeared all over her. That is one of the most sickening scenes in the entire game to me. How one may watch it with pleasure, satisfaction or glee, I don't care to find out.

Pleasure or glee?  No.  Satisfaction?  Eh, I suppose.  Whatever arguments can be made in favor of Loghain not deserving to die have counters. 

[Persephone]

Khavos wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Howe and Loghain have very little in common. Comments such as these make me sad... Maybe Alistair's tantrums, my disgust at revenge at ALL costs and Loghain's surrender make me biased.... Or maybe I just don't want a woman having her father's blood smeared all over her. That is one of the most sickening scenes in the entire game to me. How one may watch it with pleasure, satisfaction or glee, I don't care to find out.

Pleasure or glee?  No.  Satisfaction?  Eh, I suppose.  Whatever arguments can be made in favor of Loghain not deserving to die have counters. 

Of course they do. Maybe being a woman without a mother little family (My father and siblings aside) makes me biased as well. I cannot make anyone watch their father die, having his blood smeared all over her. No way. Never again.

[Persephone]

jln.francisco wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Daryn Mercio wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
I agree.  There's really no reason to spare him at all, except to do it for the goof, or to try something different.

In your opinion. Three words that people ought to use more.

For instance, imo, there is no reason sufficient enough for me to want to kill Loghain.

Not even, he hired an assasin to kill you?  Seems a damn good reason to kill him.

IMO.   

Ignoring the fact that this assassin turned out to be one of my favorite companions, the assassin was sent for good reasons, we were enemies.
Nothing personal, it was just business. No where near sufficient enough for me to want to kill him. Not when he yields.  

Him yielding is a cowards move. ?He wished death upon you, yet he doesn't have the balls to have the tables turned on him

Yielding in a duel is anything but cowardly. Aknowledging defeat requires more "balls" than almost anything else.

I'll agree that admitting defeat isn't cowardice but I won't call it courage. Loghain is in the hole and while you can claim he meant to do and tried to do good, it is still pretty clear he weakened his country and left all  neighboring nations exposed to a very grave and serious threat.

And while we're on that topic, what about everyone else? Don't they have the right to protect their citizens and country from the Blight? Loghain's actions weren't just harmful to Fereldan, they were harmful to every neighboring state.

I do not condone several of the things Loghain has done. But his mistrust of the Grey Wardens (Read "The Calling") AND his refusal to agree that the Wardens are NECESSARY is understandable. Even Cailan moans about it not being a "real" Blight. Nobody, not even Alistair knows why the GW are needed until Riordan explains. Loghain's history with Duncan (Whose own joining the Grey Wardens was not an honor, poor Alistair knew little about his idol!) , Cailan's foolish ideas etc. provided no explanation as to why the GW are needed at all. Why does the PC never bother to question just WHY they are needed to kill Archie? Given the Warden's past treason, their connection to Orlais... I cannot blame Loghain for not catering to their order.

[Khavos]

Persephone wrote...

I do not condone several of the things Loghain has done. But his mistrust of the Grey Wardens (Read "The Calling") AND his refusal to agree that the Wardens are NECESSARY is understandable. Even Cailan moans about it not being a "real" Blight. Nobody, not even Alistair knows why the GW are needed until Riordan explains. Loghain's history with Duncan (Whose own joining the Grey Wardens was not an honor, poor Alistair knew little about his idol!) , Cailan's foolish ideas etc. provided no explanation as to why the GW are needed at all. Why does the PC never bother to question just WHY they are needed to kill Archie? Given the Warden's past treason, their connection to Orlais... I cannot blame Loghain for not catering to their order.

I can, if only for the fact that it's not exactly a secret that four of the four last Blights were stopped by Grey Wardens.  They're secretive, no doubt about that, but it's hard to argue seriously against their success.  They play politics in the Anderfels, sure - and maybe elsewhere I suppose - but that's because they have to; as an entity they exist to  stop Blights, not to care who's in power.  Unless, of course, it affects their ability to stop Blights.

[Sarah1281]

Partially calling you out on their exile. The coup was secretly backed by the teyrns and arls when their choice of Ferelden's ruler turned around and bit them in the ass. Granted, it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if the coup succeeded, but it probably still wouldn't have turned out well.

Yeah, if it's such a secret that only Avernus or Sophia who were THERE can tell you then you can't really use that as a reason why Loghain's paranoia about the GW is ridiculous. He just knows they were involved in a rebellion against the Crown and got thrown out.

I can, if only for the fact that it's not exactly a secret that four of the four last Blights were stopped by Grey Wardens. They're secretive, no doubt about that, but it's hard to argue seriously against their success. They play politics in the Anderfels, sure - and maybe elsewhere I suppose - but that's because they have to; as an entity they exist to stop Blights, not to care who's in power. Unless, of course, it affects their ability to stop Blights.

They HAVE to play politics? Really? How do you figure that, particularly with the distinct lack of darkspawn around since the Fourth Blight ended? YOU have to play politics in the game as the dwarves are taking to long to pick a King and Eamon puts you on the spot if Alistair doesn't immediately accept the Crown after you remove Loghain from power to gain the Ferelden army. The GWs elsewhere don't have nearly as pressing of a need.

[Khavos]

Sarah1281 wrote...
They HAVE to play politics? Really? How do you figure that, particularly with the distinct lack of darkspawn around since the Fourth Blight ended? YOU have to play politics in the game as the dwarves are taking to long to pick a King and Eamon puts you on the spot if Alistair doesn't immediately accept the Crown after you remove Loghain from power to gain the Ferelden army. The GWs elsewhere don't have nearly as pressing of a need.

Yes, they have to play politics in the Anderfels and possibly elsewhere.  The Anderfels is a Holy Roman Empire analogue, after all, and it's also the Grey Wardens' base of operations.  They hold Weisshaupt, after all. 

Beyond that, though, you can't simply disappear into the woods for four hundred years and emerge only when a Blight shows up and expect people to do what you tell them to do.  Tevinter and Orlais both declined to send any support to the Grey Wardens during the Fourth Blight, after all.  I'd imagine it's a good idea to make sure that you have enough political support to ensure you'll actually be getting the armies you need when a Blight presents itself because, after all, the Wardens aren't an army unto themselves, and depend on nations sending troops to be able to do what they do. 

[Sarah1281]

Khavos wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
They HAVE to play politics? Really? How do you figure that, particularly with the distinct lack of darkspawn around since the Fourth Blight ended? YOU have to play politics in the game as the dwarves are taking to long to pick a King and Eamon puts you on the spot if Alistair doesn't immediately accept the Crown after you remove Loghain from power to gain the Ferelden army. The GWs elsewhere don't have nearly as pressing of a need.

Yes, they have to play politics in the Anderfels and possibly elsewhere.  The Anderfels is a Holy Roman Empire analogue, after all, and it's also the Grey Wardens' base of operations.  They hold Weisshaupt, after all. 

Beyond that, though, you can't simply disappear into the woods for four hundred years and emerge only when a Blight shows up and expect people to do what you tell them to do.  Tevinter and Orlais both declined to send any support to the Grey Wardens during the Fourth Blight, after all.  I'd imagine it's a good idea to make sure that you have enough political support to ensure you'll actually be getting the armies you need when a Blight presents itself because, after all, the Wardens aren't an army unto themselves, and depend on nations sending troops to be able to do what they do. 

And yet they were too busy being all prepared and political to bother to even wait at the border like the Orlesian Wardens did during the Fifth Blight.

[Khavos]

Sarah1281 wrote...
And yet they were too busy being all prepared and political to bother to even wait at the border like the Orlesian Wardens did during the Fifth Blight.

What?

[Sarah1281]

Khavos wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
And yet they were too busy being all prepared and political to bother to even wait at the border like the Orlesian Wardens did during the Fifth Blight.

What?

You said the Wardens have to be political so that they're not useless in times of a Blight and yet for the only Bight in 400 years all we heard about were Orlesian Wardens who just sat at the border waiting for Fereldne to be consumed by darkspawn.

[Khavos]

Sarah1281 wrote...
You said the Wardens have to be political so that they're not useless in times of a Blight and yet for the only Bight in 400 years all we heard about were Orlesian Wardens who just sat at the border waiting for Fereldne to be consumed by darkspawn.

Yes, because they were forbidden from entering Ferelden by Loghain due to - wait for it - political reasons.  And even despite that, they still sent a guy in to try and get the situation resolved so they could deal with the Blight. 

This illustrates precisely why the Grey Wardens need to keep an eye on politics, even if they're theoretically supposed to be politically neutral; their ability to do their job is almost entirely dependent on the various nations of Ferelden being willing to let them do it, at least outside the Anderfels.

[Sarah1281]

Khavos wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
You said the Wardens have to be political so that they're not useless in times of a Blight and yet for the only Bight in 400 years all we heard about were Orlesian Wardens who just sat at the border waiting for Fereldne to be consumed by darkspawn.

Yes, because they were forbidden from entering Ferelden by Loghain due to - wait for it - political reasons.  And even despite that, they still sent a guy in to try and get the situation resolved so they could deal with the Blight. 

This illustrates precisely why the Grey Wardens need to keep an eye on politics, even if they're theoretically supposed to be politically neutral; their ability to do their job is almost entirely dependent on the various nations of Ferelden being willing to let them do it, at least outside the Anderfels.

They're kept out because of their political ties to Orlais. And that whole 'whatever it takes' thing kind of falls flat when you consider that they could have easily forced their way into the country given the lack of troops Loghain had and the fact he was fighting a civil war. Besides, Riordan volunteered to go, he wasn't sent.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 They're kept out because of their political ties to Orlais. And that whole 'whatever it takes' thing kind of falls flat when you consider that they could have easily forced their way into the country given the lack of troops Loghain had and the fact he was fighting a civil war. Besides, Riordan volunteered to go, he wasn't sent.

I get the impression there were not many Wardens in Orlais.  They were relying on chevalier support troops as backup.  So with those small numbers, are they really supposed to risk being slaughtered by Loghain, or else come in with chevaliers and spark an international incident?  That would bode ill if the Blight then spread to Orlais, as all expectation was that it would with Ferelden on such a self-destructive path.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
 They're kept out because of their political ties to Orlais. And that whole 'whatever it takes' thing kind of falls flat when you consider that they could have easily forced their way into the country given the lack of troops Loghain had and the fact he was fighting a civil war. Besides, Riordan volunteered to go, he wasn't sent.

I get the impression there were not many Wardens in Orlais.  They were relying on chevalier support troops as backup.  So with those small numbers, are they really supposed to risk being slaughtered by Loghain, or else come in with chevaliers and spark an international incident?  That would bode ill if the Blight then spread to Orlais, as all expectation was that it would with Ferelden on such a self-destructive path.

 The chevaliers could get them into the country if need be. Surely the troops stationed at the border couldn't stop four legions of them?

[Khavos]

Sarah1281 wrote...
They're kept out because of their political ties to Orlais. And that whole 'whatever it takes' thing kind of falls flat when you consider that they could have easily forced their way into the country given the lack of troops Loghain had and the fact he was fighting a civil war. Besides, Riordan volunteered to go, he wasn't sent.

They were kept out because of their perceived political ties to Orlais.  Not all Wardens in Orlais are Orlesian - Loghain's epilogue if he's conscripted and survive mentions him eventually being stationed in Orlais himself.  The Wardens are not the Orlaisian Empire in disguise.  Loghain believed they were, but Loghain believing it and it being reality are completely separate. 

Sure, they could have theoretically forced their way into the Ferelden with a hundred Wardens and, what, the thousand chevaliers Orlais agreed to send if they really wanted to, but given that every single Warden in Ferelden save for Alistair and the PC were killed, they'd have no way of knowing if they were facing a united Ferelden or not - which is one of the things Riordan went in to find out.  I'm not sure how him volunteering is relevant, by the way. 

Even if they knew for sure Loghain didn't have the entire country under his control, it's still a dumb idea to force your way in to fight a darkspawn horde AND however many men Loghain had with only thirteen hundred dudes.  They came expecting to fold in to an allied army, the way previous campaigns against Blights were conducted, so suggesting it would be easy for them to simply fight their way through a Blight by themselves is a little off the mark.  I realize the game doesn't do a great job of representing the scale of the conflict, but even in the final battle you have three groups of fifty soldiers and a group of twelve mages to call on, and that's just sending out for small units in the immediate vicinity according to Riordan's briefing on it.   

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
 They're kept out because of their political ties to Orlais. And that whole 'whatever it takes' thing kind of falls flat when you consider that they could have easily forced their way into the country given the lack of troops Loghain had and the fact he was fighting a civil war. Besides, Riordan volunteered to go, he wasn't sent.

I get the impression there were not many Wardens in Orlais.  They were relying on chevalier support troops as backup.  So with those small numbers, are they really supposed to risk being slaughtered by Loghain, or else come in with chevaliers and spark an international incident?  That would bode ill if the Blight then spread to Orlais, as all expectation was that it would with Ferelden on such a self-destructive path.

 The chevaliers could get them into the country if need be. Surely the troops stationed at the border couldn't stop four legions of them?

Who says Empress Celene would be willing to commit herself to what would be seen as an invasion?  Especially when they can't have been completely certain it was even a Blight.

[Sarah1281]

I didn't say the Orlesians could easily defeat the Blight by themselves. They could easily get into Ferelden to try to fight at all and no other nation even bothered despite the Wardens all-important politics.

[Khavos]

Addai67 wrote...
I get the impression there were not many Wardens in Orlais.  They were relying on chevalier support troops as backup.  So with those small numbers, are they really supposed to risk being slaughtered by Loghain, or else come in with chevaliers and spark an international incident?  That would bode ill if the Blight then spread to Orlais, as all expectation was that it would with Ferelden on such a self-destructive path.

The wiki suggests there's "several hundred" Wardens in Orlais, though who knows where that number came from. 

[Khavos]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I didn't say the Orlesians could easily defeat the Blight by themselves. They could easily get into Ferelden to try to fight at all and no other nation even bothered despite the Wardens all-important politics.

All previous Blights lasted multiple years, largely due to it being somewhat time-consuming to move an army across a continent using only medieval technology.  Try getting thirty thousand guys to walk across the United States carrying everything they need for the trip there and back sometime.  We have no idea if word of the Fifth Blight even made it beyond Orlais by the time it was over, and if it did, we have no idea if Nevarra and Tevinter and whoever else were mobilizing. 

The Orlesian chevaliers could've forced their way into Ferelden, sure.  But they couldn't defeat the Blight alone, and they'd been informed that they were not allowed into Ferelden.  That doesn't sound like a recipe for anything but getting killed off once they were in the kingdom, either by a far, far larger darkspawn horde or Loghain's boys. 

The point of all this is, of course, that the Grey Wardens do need to conciliate the political goodwill of the countries they're working to save from the darkspawn.  I have no idea why you contend that idea, but whatever.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I didn't say the Orlesians could easily defeat the Blight by themselves. They could easily get into Ferelden to try to fight at all and no other nation even bothered despite the Wardens all-important politics.

Well I agree that Weisshaupt didn't lift a finger, it's why I want to... uh, lift a finger to them when they start interfering in Amaranthine.  OTOH, Wynne makes a comment about how other nations hardly knew the Blight existed before it was over.

[Sarah1281]

The point of all this is, of course, that the Grey Wardens do need to conciliate the political goodwill of the countries they're working to save from the darkspawn. I have no idea why you contend that idea, but whatever.

There is a difference between maintaining goodwill (Duncan does that nicely with everyone but Loghain who won't forgive him for being brought in from Orlais and what happens in The Calling) and what Riordan tells you the Anderfels Grey Wardens do where they just struggle for power like any other noble does. I don't feel that that is necessary for the survival of the Grey Warden order, no.