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[Giggles_Manically]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The point of all this is, of course, that the Grey Wardens do need to conciliate the political goodwill of the countries they're working to save from the darkspawn. I have no idea why you contend that idea, but whatever.

There is a difference between maintaining goodwill (Duncan does that nicely with everyone but Loghain who won't forgive him for being brought in from Orlais and what happens in The Calling) and what Riordan tells you the Anderfels Grey Wardens do where they just struggle for power like any other noble does. I don't feel that that is necessary for the survival of the Grey Warden order, no.

Funny since the Knights Templar thought that they didnt have to worry about the goodwill of nations too.

Until the French King and the Pope had them all executed and their property stolen.

[Sarah1281]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

The point of all this is, of course, that the Grey Wardens do need to conciliate the political goodwill of the countries they're working to save from the darkspawn. I have no idea why you contend that idea, but whatever.

There is a difference between maintaining goodwill (Duncan does that nicely with everyone but Loghain who won't forgive him for being brought in from Orlais and what happens in The Calling) and what Riordan tells you the Anderfels Grey Wardens do where they just struggle for power like any other noble does. I don't feel that that is necessary for the survival of the Grey Warden order, no.

Funny since the Knights Templar thought that they didnt have to worry about the goodwill of nations too.

Until the French King and the Pope had them all executed and their property stolen.

Didn't I just say that they did need to make sure they had goodwill but not focus solely on gaining political power? Please READ what I say and make sure that you UNDERSTAND it before you reply.

[Giggles_Manically]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

The point of all this is, of course, that the Grey Wardens do need to conciliate the political goodwill of the countries they're working to save from the darkspawn. I have no idea why you contend that idea, but whatever.

There is a difference between maintaining goodwill (Duncan does that nicely with everyone but Loghain who won't forgive him for being brought in from Orlais and what happens in The Calling) and what Riordan tells you the Anderfels Grey Wardens do where they just struggle for power like any other noble does. I don't feel that that is necessary for the survival of the Grey Warden order, no.

Funny since the Knights Templar thought that they didnt have to worry about the goodwill of nations too.

Until the French King and the Pope had them all executed and their property stolen.

Didn't I just say that they did need to make sure they had goodwill but not focus solely on gaining political power? Please READ what I say and make sure that you UNDERSTAND it before you reply.

Werent you arguing that the Warden's didnt need the goodwill of nations?
Also please calm down if I made a mistake, All caps is just bein mean.

[CelestialVanguard]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Partially calling you out on their exile. The coup was secretly backed by the teyrns and arls when their choice of Ferelden's ruler turned around and bit them in the ass. Granted, it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if the coup succeeded, but it probably still wouldn't have turned out well.

Yeah, if it's such a secret that only Avernus or Sophia who were THERE can tell you then you can't really use that as a reason why Loghain's paranoia about the GW is ridiculous. He just knows they were involved in a rebellion against the Crown and got thrown out. 

Thank you for mentioning that, I completely forgot about it earlier. Yeah, Arland more than likely forged historical accounts to make it seem as if he was ultimately the victim of circumstances.

Modifié par CelestialVanguard, 31 juillet 2010 - 04:50 .

[TJPags]

So, Loghain's a good guy because he'll allow the country to be overrun by Darkspawn in order to save it from the POSSIBILITY that Orlais may try something?



That's kind of like refusing to jump overbaodr because you MIGHT drown, while the ship you're on is a raging inferno. Not exactly . . .well, smart . . IMO.



And keep in mind - those Orlesian legions and Wardens? They were INVITED in by the King. If Loghain factored that into his decision on what to do, well, deciding to do something that directly contradicts the will of your sworn sovereign is . . .ummm . . .oh yea, TREASON.



I really have yet to see a valid reason not to kill Loghain, although I'll admit, killing him in front of his daughter is harsh, but the game forced that.

[Giggles_Manically]

You are forgetting the fact that Loghain saw his mother raped and murdered in front of him, and personally saw the Orlesians run over Ferelden right?



Also no one says Loghain is a good guy, he is just someone who went overboard and did incredibly stupid things. So a case of Patriot gone wrong, rather than Evil Overlord.

[TJPags]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

You are forgetting the fact that Loghain saw his mother raped and murdered in front of him, and personally saw the Orlesians run over Ferelden right?

Also no one says Loghain is a good guy, he is just someone who went overboard and did incredibly stupid things. So a case of Patriot gone wrong, rather than Evil Overlord.

Where do we find that out?

And is that really an excuse for the later atrocities he commits?

[Sarah1281]

The Stolen Throne.

[Khavos]

Sarah1281 wrote...
There is a difference between maintaining goodwill (Duncan does that nicely with everyone but Loghain who won't forgive him for being brought in from Orlais and what happens in The Calling) and what Riordan tells you the Anderfels Grey Wardens do where they just struggle for power like any other noble does. I don't feel that that is necessary for the survival of the Grey Warden order, no.

Well, given that the Grey Wardens' main sanctum is in the Anderfels, and is in fact a rather important fortress, it's probably pretty necessary.  Especially as the Anderfels is basically a Holy Roman Empire analogue, with a weak at best monarchy. 

[Giggles_Manically]

Go read the Stolen Throne and see if you find him in the same light.



Loghain loved his country, but he thought that only he could save it leading to him snafuing it up.

Also trusting Howe contributed to his epic fail, because come on its Howe.

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The Stolen Throne.

Ahh, the books.  Which I've never read.  Never heard of until after I played the game.  Curious - which was released first?  The game or the books?

Still, I have to question whether something terrible happening to him in the past can excuse the stupifity and atrocities he's guilty of later on?

[CelestialVanguard]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Go read the Stolen Throne and see if you find him in the same light.

Loghain loved his country, but he thought that only he could save it leading to him snafuing it up.
Also trusting Howe contributed to his epic fail, because come on its Howe.

Doesn't help that Howe is voiced by Tim Curry, which tells you that Howe being a Complete Monster was practically a given.

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

The Stolen Throne.

Ahh, the books.  Which I've never read.  Never heard of until after I played the game.  Curious - which was released first?  The game or the books?

Still, I have to question whether something terrible happening to him in the past can excuse the stupifity and atrocities he's guilty of later on?

It explains his hatred of and utter unreasonable behavior towards the Orlesians and I can't really fault him for that. Under normal circumstances, it wouldn't almost lead to the destruction of the entire country, after all. Other things he does I'm not giving him a free pass for, btw.

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

The Stolen Throne.

Ahh, the books.  Which I've never read.  Never heard of until after I played the game.  Curious - which was released first?  The game or the books?

Still, I have to question whether something terrible happening to him in the past can excuse the stupifity and atrocities he's guilty of later on?

It explains his hatred of and utter unreasonable behavior towards the Orlesians and I can't really fault him for that. Under normal circumstances, it wouldn't almost lead to the destruction of the entire country, after all. Other things he does I'm not giving him a free pass for, btw.

Oh, I understand that the books provide apparently a TON of backstory, and info on several characters.  I just wonder whether the books came out first, in which case it could have been assumed by the game people that we'd read them and thus know this, or came out after the game, in which case, we'd not have had a clue while playing the game.

And no, I can't fault him hating the Orlesians, even without reading the books, as he lived under the occupation and fought to free his country.  So I get that.

It's the fact that he puts blinders on, and ignores any threat except his perceived threat from Orlais - which, from game info, is never real - and acts like nothing matters except the Orlesians.  Again, he advocates staying in a ship which is burning and sinking, rather then jumping overboard, because you MIGHT drown.

[CelestialVanguard]

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

The Stolen Throne.

Ahh, the books.  Which I've never read.  Never heard of until after I played the game.  Curious - which was released first?  The game or the books?

Still, I have to question whether something terrible happening to him in the past can excuse the stupifity and atrocities he's guilty of later on?

The books were released first. The Stolen Throne was released on March 9th of last year. The Calling was released on October 13th of last year.

Modifié par CelestialVanguard, 30 juillet 2010 - 11:30 .

[phaonica]

TJPags wrote...

And keep in mind - those Orlesian legions and Wardens? They were INVITED in by the King. If Loghain factored that into his decision on what to do, well, deciding to do something that directly contradicts the will of your sworn sovereign is . . .ummm . . .oh yea, TREASON.

I think that inviting Orlesian troops into the nation when there is a risk of invasion is a betrayal of the country too, and I don't think being king excuses it.

It's the fact that he puts blinders on, and ignores any threat except his perceived threat from Orlais - which, from game info, is never real - and acts like nothing matters except the Orlesians. 

From the books, you could discover that the perceived threat form Orlais *is* real, and that Loghain has been dealing with it off and on since the Orlesian occupation ended. Our characters might not know about it, but Loghain does, and his mistrust against them is not unfounded.

jln.francisco wrote...

And while we're on that topic, what about everyone else? Don't they have the right to protect their citizens and country from the Blight? Loghain's actions weren't just harmful to Fereldan, they were harmful to every neighboring state.

Personally, I have a lot of trouble mustering up any sympathy for Orlais. They can fight the blight when it gets to their borders. Until then, they can gtfo.

 

Modifié par phaonica, 30 juillet 2010 - 11:38 .

[TJPags]

CelestialVanguard wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

The Stolen Throne.

Ahh, the books.  Which I've never read.  Never heard of until after I played the game.  Curious - which was released first?  The game or the books?

Still, I have to question whether something terrible happening to him in the past can excuse the stupifity and atrocities he's guilty of later on?

The books were released first. The Stolen Throne was released on March 9th of last year. The Calling was released on October 13th of last year.

Thank you.  In that case, I may have to revise my opinion of the books having no bearing on game decisions.

I',m still not sure because, as I said, I've never read the books, so have to make all my decisions on gome info only.  I don't think that invalidates my opinions, or those of anyone else in the same situation. 

Really not sure how I feel about the books giving info which, essentially - from what I'm hearing from people who DID read the books - , would completely alter someone's opinion of a game character.  Makes me think not everyone was on the same page here . . . .pun unintentional . . .

[Giggles_Manically]

Queen Celene and Calian were very friendly in those letters in RTO.



THAT BASTARD!!! Loghain suprised me there he really didnt like Calian, but who can blame him Calian is King Ponce the Magnificent.

[TJPags]

phaonica wrote...

Personally, I have a lot of trouble mustering up any sympathy for Orlais. They can fight the blight when it gets to their borders. Until then, they can gtfo.

 

I have no sympathy for Orlais at all.  In fact, I feel nothing for them.  After all, from a game only POV, the only part they play is in - what seems to be - Loghains paranoid delusions.

The more I hear about what's in these books, and the more it seems like they really change characters from their game perspective, the more annoyed I get.

[Giggles_Manically]

http://aimo.devianta...llery/#/d2mzjea

This happens to many people after reading TST.

[Sarah1281]

Really not sure how I feel about the books giving info which, essentially - from what I'm hearing from people who DID read the books - , would completely alter someone's opinion of a game character. Makes me think not everyone was on the same page here . . . .pun unintentional . . .

It just explains there past. For Loghain, for instance, it makes you stop seeing him as someone who won't just drop his Orlesian hatred because even if he did fight in a rebellion so did other people who aren't NEARLY as obsessive about it. Sure, he still does some stupid **** becaues of his Orlesian thing but you can really understand it better and it's tragic how he's gone from who he was in the books to who he is in the game.



It's like how you view the party members completely differently when you get full approval with them or see them at their worst. It's not OOC but just tells you more about them so you can understand them better.

[phaonica]

TJPags wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Personally, I have a lot of trouble mustering up any sympathy for Orlais. They can fight the blight when it gets to their borders. Until then, they can gtfo.

 

I have no sympathy for Orlais at all.  In fact, I feel nothing for them.  After all, from a game only POV, the only part they play is in - what seems to be - Loghains paranoid delusions.

The more I hear about what's in these books, and the more it seems like they really change characters from their game perspective, the more annoyed I get.

To be fair, they don't change everyone's view. Some like Loghain less because he's still quite an @sshole. For me, they only reaffirimed what I already believed: that Loghain did care about Ferelden, that he wasn't a crazy person, that his mistrust wasn't utterly misplaced, that he really thought he was doing what was best for Ferelden, and that even if he was wrong, he didn't deserve to die.

[phaonica]

jln.francisco wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

http://aimo.devianta...llery/#/d2mzjea

This happens to many people after reading TST.

All that's missing is a scene with him glistening sexily in the sun.