77 réponses à ce sujet

[anmiro]

jbblue05 wrote...

Who's murder wasn't justified because Kai Leng's make sense while Aria's was an act of terrorism.

Aria is crime lord, TIM is the leader of a terrorist organization. I am not sympathetic to either.

[doagrl]

jbblue05 wrote...

anmiro wrote...


Yeah, it does make sense that a murderer would murder some one. That doesn't justify murder.

As for the mercenaries Grayson and Liselle killed, yes I do have a problem with that, so did Grayson. Even he was struggling with it. It was made pretty clear that Grayson was having second thoughts about working for Aria. Kai on the other hand believes in what hes doing and doesn't give cold blooded murder a second thought. As I said, I'm far more sympathetic to Grayson.

Who's murder wasn't justified because Kai Leng's make sense while Aria's was an act of terrorism.

I can't feel sorry for Grayson he puts himself in the same situations or worse.he just takes 1 step foward and 4 steps back.  Given Grayson and Kai-Leng's history with Cerberus Grayson did a lot worse.
Kai Leng is clear-minded and has his motives he's not going to kill anyone for no reason.  He's loyal to Cerberus because they rescued him from a 20 year imprisionment and Kai felt betrayed by the Alliance.

Grayson doesn't know what he really wants and motivates him he's a drug addict and is not sure of himself he's an unstable person.

Aria is not a terrorist, she's a crime lord. Yes she kills people but those are people who screw her over (or attempt to screw her over) a.k.a. other criminals. She's not out there slaughtering women in their beds or abducting children & performing horrific experiments on them or plotting the deaths of colonists, scientists, Alliance soldiers, etc like Cerberus has been shown to do on a regular basis. She's been running Omega for centuries and she's never been shown to be responsible for anything like the atrocities that Cerberus has committed in it's relatively short existence.

In a contest of evil between Aria & Cerberus, Cerberus "wins" hands down. A fair comparison would be say Al Capone vs. Osama bin Laden. Neither of them are great guys but there is a huge difference between stealing, selling (or profiting from the sell of ) drugs/booze/sex/other illegal crap and the occasional murder of other people with questionable morals and blowing up, experimenting on and/or tormenting innocent civilians.

I hope to see Kai and TIM in ME3 and I hope that Aria with Shepard's help kills them both to avenge her daughter and helps bring about the total destruction of Cerberus.

[jbblue05]

wizardryforever wrote...

When did I ever say that he did?  All I said was that he enjoyed killing her.  The very fact that he had to do it himself seems to indicate that he wanted to do it, meaning that either he enjoyed it, or he didn't trust his teammates.  I'm going with he enjoyed it.

Your missing my point if he truly enjoyed killing Liselle because she's Asari why not invite Asari to his apartments and kill them because he enjoys killing Asari

He thinks Asari are  horish not a species that needs to be eradicated.

Their is more proof that he was trying to avoid  Liselle then hoping to kill her because she's an Asari.

So if he told someone else to do it  you would still think he gave the order because he like killing Asari
THe rest of Kai Leng's squad was attending to their dying squad member, cleanig up all evidence, and recovering the stolen drugs.  Kai Leng killed her because he gave his squad orders and he finished off the last loose end.

[anmiro]

It should also be mentioned that Aria's criminal empire brings some form of order to a place that wouldn't have any. Between the Illusive Man and Aria, Aria is the lesser of the two evils. 

[InHarmsWay]

I do not feel anymore sympathy towards Liselle than the Eclipse sisters of Illium. They both had the same profession. Drug smuggling, extortion and guns-for-hire.

[InHarmsWay]

doagrl wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

anmiro wrote...


Yeah, it does make sense that a murderer would murder some one. That doesn't justify murder.

As for the mercenaries Grayson and Liselle killed, yes I do have a problem with that, so did Grayson. Even he was struggling with it. It was made pretty clear that Grayson was having second thoughts about working for Aria. Kai on the other hand believes in what hes doing and doesn't give cold blooded murder a second thought. As I said, I'm far more sympathetic to Grayson.

Who's murder wasn't justified because Kai Leng's make sense while Aria's was an act of terrorism.

I can't feel sorry for Grayson he puts himself in the same situations or worse.he just takes 1 step foward and 4 steps back.  Given Grayson and Kai-Leng's history with Cerberus Grayson did a lot worse.
Kai Leng is clear-minded and has his motives he's not going to kill anyone for no reason.  He's loyal to Cerberus because they rescued him from a 20 year imprisionment and Kai felt betrayed by the Alliance.

Grayson doesn't know what he really wants and motivates him he's a drug addict and is not sure of himself he's an unstable person.

Aria is not a terrorist, she's a crime lord. Yes she kills people but those are people who screw her over (or attempt to screw her over) a.k.a. other criminals. She's not out there slaughtering women in their beds or abducting children & performing horrific experiments on them or plotting the deaths of colonists, scientists, Alliance soldiers, etc like Cerberus has been shown to do on a regular basis. She's been running Omega for centuries and she's never been shown to be responsible for anything like the atrocities that Cerberus has committed in it's relatively short existence.

In a contest of evil between Aria & Cerberus, Cerberus "wins" hands down. A fair comparison would be say Al Capone vs. Osama bin Laden. Neither of them are great guys but there is a huge difference between stealing, selling (or profiting from the sell of ) drugs/booze/sex/other illegal crap and the occasional murder of other people with questionable morals and blowing up, experimenting on and/or tormenting innocent civilians.

I hope to see Kai and TIM in ME3 and I hope that Aria with Shepard's help kills them both to avenge her daughter and helps bring about the total destruction of Cerberus.

I agree with this assessment. Cerberus is a destabilizing element in the galaxy whereas Aria is a stabilzing element on Omega.

Modifié par InHarmsWay, 28 septembre 2010 - 03:14 .

[jbblue05]

doagrl wrote...

[
Aria is not a terrorist, she's a crime lord. Yes she kills people but those are people who screw her over (or attempt to screw her over) a.k.a. other criminals. She's not out there slaughtering women in their beds or abducting children & performing horrific experiments on them or plotting the deaths of colonists, scientists, Alliance soldiers, etc like Cerberus has been shown to do on a regular basis. She's been running Omega for centuries and she's never been shown to be responsible for anything like the atrocities that Cerberus has committed in it's relatively short existence.

In a contest of evil between Aria & Cerberus, Cerberus "wins" hands down. A fair comparison would be say Al Capone vs. Osama bin Laden. Neither of them are great guys but there is a huge difference between stealing, selling (or profiting from the sell of ) drugs/booze/sex/other illegal crap and the occasional murder of other people with questionable morals and blowing up, experimenting on and/or tormenting innocent civilians.

I hope to see Kai and TIM in ME3 and I hope that Aria with Shepard's help kills them both to avenge her daughter and helps bring about the total destruction of Cerberus.

Aria is a terrosrist she uses fear and intimidation to advance her cause.  She has executions car bombings, and slaughters those who don't pay her protection money.
You forget her one rule "DON'T **** with ARIA! which shows she rules with fear and intimidation
Crime and Drug Lords are terrorists believing they are not is naive

If you're going to slander Cerberus stop looking at one side of the story and don't exaggerate what they've done
Teltin Facility and Overlord clearly went rogue its no differerent then when spectres go rogue
Why do people defend Liselle so much she's scum just like all of Aria's lackeys

Aria doesn't tell Shepard about her methods or her various dealings or her eventful past. How would you know she's not part of the slave trade, tortures, or uses extortion. 

Cerberus is not a terrorist organization if you believe they are you need to better understand the meaning of terrorism. 
They're a black ops organization not a terrorist one.

Terroists try to be as visible as possible to the public to cause fear and intimidation
Cerberus keeps to itself and does research and gather intel

Aria is more evil then Cerberus.  Aria is out for Numero Uno and the Credits. She's not a social worker
Cerberus is trying to advance humanity and fight against the Reapers they haven't done any act of violence against aliens saying they do is ignorant and being a tool to propaganda

[jbblue05]

InHarmsWay wrote...


I agree with this assessment. Cerberus is a distabilizing element in the galaxy whereas Aria is a stabilzing element on Omega.

How is Cerbrus is a distabilizing element  in the galaxy they don't seek out hostilities they mind their business.
The Council is more worried about what's going on in Omega then Cerberus.

In Retribution Aria had no problem killing Turians on the captured cerberus station as long as she got credits


Cerberus is the only group doing something about the Reapers and saved the Council but they're harmful to the galaxy

Omega is not stable its still survival of the fittest.
Aria doesn't control all of Omega 

[Randy1012]

I'd continue debating, but I can't take anyone who vigorously defends Cerberus, and actually believes that they're in the right, seriously. I'm not saying Aria is all that great, either (nor was Liselle), but Cerberus is on a completely different level. Hopefully we'll get the opportunity to take them down in ME3.

[doagrl]

jbblue05 wrote...

doagrl wrote...

[
Aria is not a terrorist, she's a crime lord. Yes she kills people but those are people who screw her over (or attempt to screw her over) a.k.a. other criminals. She's not out there slaughtering women in their beds or abducting children & performing horrific experiments on them or plotting the deaths of colonists, scientists, Alliance soldiers, etc like Cerberus has been shown to do on a regular basis. She's been running Omega for centuries and she's never been shown to be responsible for anything like the atrocities that Cerberus has committed in it's relatively short existence.

In a contest of evil between Aria & Cerberus, Cerberus "wins" hands down. A fair comparison would be say Al Capone vs. Osama bin Laden. Neither of them are great guys but there is a huge difference between stealing, selling (or profiting from the sell of ) drugs/booze/sex/other illegal crap and the occasional murder of other people with questionable morals and blowing up, experimenting on and/or tormenting innocent civilians.

I hope to see Kai and TIM in ME3 and I hope that Aria with Shepard's help kills them both to avenge her daughter and helps bring about the total destruction of Cerberus.

Aria is a terrosrist she uses fear and intimidation to advance her cause.  She has executions car bombings, and slaughters those who don't pay her protection money.
You forget her one rule "DON'T **** with ARIA! which shows she rules with fear and intimidation
Crime and Drug Lords are terrorists believing they are not is naive

If you're going to slander Cerberus stop looking at one side of the story and don't exaggerate what they've done
Teltin Facility and Overlord clearly went rogue its no differerent then when spectres go rogue
Why do people defend Liselle so much she's scum just like all of Aria's lackeys

Aria doesn't tell Shepard about her methods or her various dealings or her eventful past. How would you know she's not part of the slave trade, tortures, or uses extortion. 

Cerberus is not a terrorist organization if you believe they are you need to better understand the meaning of terrorism. 
They're a black ops organization not a terrorist one.

Terroists try to be as visible as possible to the public to cause fear and intimidation
Cerberus keeps to itself and does research and gather intel

Aria is more evil then Cerberus.  Aria is out for Numero Uno and the Credits. She's not a social worker
Cerberus is trying to advance humanity and fight against the Reapers they haven't done any act of violence against aliens saying they do is ignorant and being a tool to propaganda

Aria took Omega from Patriarch and has overseen more than two centuries of stability (or what passes for stability on Omega). She protects her own interests and was shown to be ruthless when challenged by others just like herself (criminals) but she has never been shown as a tyrant who slaughters innocents or who willingly risks the lives of her people no reason.

And no terrorist actually considers themselves to be a terrorist, they're all "freedom fighters" and totally justified in the actions they take because they're fighting for a cause. What we have been shown in game & in the books about Cerberus paints a very clear picture of an organization that will do anything no matter the cost in blood and lives to reach its goal of human domination. They have killed countless people (innocent people) including many, many humans (how very pro-human of them), kidnapped children, tortured aliens (see Trapdoor), sold illegal weapons to criminal gangs, assasinated political opponents, drug dealing, ran horrible illegal experiments (Rachni/Thorian creepers/thresher maw) and the list goes on. 

I can understand if you believe in the Cerberus platform (I don't) but I can understand that there are some who like the idea of human dominance in the ME universe but I can't for the life of me understand how you can just sweep all the horrific,evil crap that TIM has done under the rug and pretend like Cerberus is as white as snow.

[Boombox]

doagrl wrote...

Aria is not a terrorist, she's a crime lord. Yes she kills people but those are people who screw her over (or attempt to screw her over) a.k.a. other criminals. She's not out there slaughtering women in their beds or abducting children & performing horrific experiments on them or plotting the deaths of colonists, scientists, Alliance soldiers, etc like Cerberus has been shown to do on a regular basis. She's been running Omega for centuries and she's never been shown to be responsible for anything like the atrocities that Cerberus has committed in it's relatively short existence.

In a contest of evil between Aria & Cerberus, Cerberus "wins" hands down. A fair comparison would be say Al Capone vs. Osama bin Laden. Neither of them are great guys but there is a huge difference between stealing, selling (or profiting from the sell of ) drugs/booze/sex/other illegal crap and the occasional murder of other people with questionable morals and blowing up, experimenting on and/or tormenting innocent civilians.

I hope to see Kai and TIM in ME3 and I hope that Aria with Shepard's help kills them both to avenge her daughter and helps bring about the total destruction of Cerberus.

I agree. To me Aria is by far the lesser of two evils when compared to Cerberus.

[jbblue05]

Randy1083 wrote...

I'd continue debating, but I can't take anyone who vigorously defends Cerberus, and actually believes that they're in the right, seriously. I'm not saying Aria is all that great, either (nor was Liselle), but Cerberus is on a completely different level. Hopefully we'll get the opportunity to take them down in ME3.

'

I can say the same for Cerberus haters.
Cerberus isn't evil or good.  Calling them terrorists and incompetent is ignorant and being a tool to propaganda
I hope I can take over Cerberus

[wizardryforever]

jbblue05 wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

When did I ever say that he did?  All I said was that he enjoyed killing her.  The very fact that he had to do it himself seems to indicate that he wanted to do it, meaning that either he enjoyed it, or he didn't trust his teammates.  I'm going with he enjoyed it.

Your missing my point if he truly enjoyed killing Liselle because she's Asari why not invite Asari to his apartments and kill them because he enjoys killing Asari

He thinks Asari are  horish not a species that needs to be eradicated.

Their is more proof that he was trying to avoid  Liselle then hoping to kill her because she's an Asari.

So if he told someone else to do it  you would still think he gave the order because he like killing Asari
THe rest of Kai Leng's squad was attending to their dying squad member, cleanig up all evidence, and recovering the stolen drugs.  Kai Leng killed her because he gave his squad orders and he finished off the last loose end.

I have no idea where you're getting this logic from (if you can call it that).  He doesn't have to want the whole species dead in order to enjoy killing one, nor does he even have to plan it out beforehand.  That's the difference between a first degree and a second degree murder.  He may have been hoping to not have to kill her, but that is because she complicates the situation, not because he wouldn't enjoy it.  It was not necessary for him to be the one to kill her (she's completely helpless).  He was needed to kill the Turian guards outside, so he should have just told one of his people to kill her while he dealt with the Turians.  But he didn't, he killed her himself.  If you can come up with a valid reason for him to do it himself, then I'll back off.  Until then, he did it because he enjoyed it.

[jbblue05]

doagrl wrote...

Aria took Omega from Patriarch and has overseen more than two centuries of stability (or what passes for stability on Omega). She protects her own interests and was shown to be ruthless when challenged by others just like herself (criminals) but she has never been shown as a tyrant who slaughters innocents or who willingly risks the lives of her people no reason.

And no terrorist actually considers themselves to be a terrorist, they're all "freedom fighters" and totally justified in the actions they take because they're fighting for a cause. What we have been shown in game & in the books about Cerberus paints a very clear picture of an organization that will do anything no matter the cost in blood and lives to reach its goal of human domination. They have killed countless people (innocent people) including many, many humans (how very pro-human of them), kidnapped children, tortured aliens (see Trapdoor), sold illegal weapons to criminal gangs, assasinated political opponents, drug dealing, ran horrible illegal experiments (Rachni/Thorian creepers/thresher maw) and the list goes on. 

I can understand if you believe in the Cerberus platform (I don't) but I can understand that there are some who like the idea of human dominance in the ME universe but I can't for the life of me understand how you can just sweep all the horrific,evil crap that TIM has done under the rug and pretend like Cerberus is as white as snow.

Aria is a tyrant you have two or three conversations with her and you know her entire history and tactics

Answer these questions what is Terrorism and what terrorist act has Cerberus done?
Do you know Cerberus body count and Aria's body count.
When did Cerberus kill innocent civilians? 
The Teltin Facility went rogue. Most children were bought from poor families on Earth or bought from Batarian slavers. Jack was acquired by lying to her mother. What that Cerberus cell is unforgivable but doesn't represent what all goes on in Cerberus.

A few Asari were used to test out a drug that could neutralize biotics which is a technological breakthrough.  Those Asari could've been kidnapped, acquired from slavers, killed, or released after the experiments.

Most people who join Cerberus are well-aware of the risks and still sign up.. The people aren't forced against their will 

I don't sweep what Cerberus has done under the rug.
I know their is more then one side of the story, I'm not short-sighted and a tool to propaganda.

[moddit]

If Kai Leng makes it into ME3 I want Sanders to be in it as well!

[jbblue05]

wizardryforever wrote...

I have no idea where you're getting this logic from (if you can call it that).  He doesn't have to want the whole species dead in order to enjoy killing one, nor does he even have to plan it out beforehand.  That's the difference between a first degree and a second degree murder.  He may have been hoping to not have to kill her, but that is because she complicates the situation, not because he wouldn't enjoy it.  It was not necessary for him to be the one to kill her (she's completely helpless).  He was needed to kill the Turian guards outside, so he should have just told one of his people to kill her while he dealt with the Turians.  But he didn't, he killed her himself.  If you can come up with a valid reason for him to do it himself, then I'll back off.  Until then, he did it because he enjoyed it.

I can say the same thing about your logic which isn't logic just a hunch.

Dude really its a lose-lose situation for Kai Leng with you your going to blame Liselle's death off of racism.no matter if Kai Leng or someone else ordered him to do it.

It was all business he slit her throat and left he didn't do anything extra.

Kai Leng took 2 seconds to kill her and took out the two turian guards while the rest of his squad carried Grayson The dying Cerberus Commando and the drugs.

Your not even using logic at all your being closed-minded about Kai Leng

[wizardryforever]

jbblue05 wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

I have no idea where you're getting this logic from (if you can call it that).  He doesn't have to want the whole species dead in order to enjoy killing one, nor does he even have to plan it out beforehand.  That's the difference between a first degree and a second degree murder.  He may have been hoping to not have to kill her, but that is because she complicates the situation, not because he wouldn't enjoy it.  It was not necessary for him to be the one to kill her (she's completely helpless).  He was needed to kill the Turian guards outside, so he should have just told one of his people to kill her while he dealt with the Turians.  But he didn't, he killed her himself.  If you can come up with a valid reason for him to do it himself, then I'll back off.  Until then, he did it because he enjoyed it.

I can say the same thing about your logic which isn't logic just a hunch.

Dude really its a lose-lose situation for Kai Leng with you your going to blame Liselle's death off of racism.no matter if Kai Leng or someone else ordered him to do it.

It was all business he slit her throat and left he didn't do anything extra.

Kai Leng took 2 seconds to kill her and took out the two turian guards while the rest of his squad carried Grayson The dying Cerberus Commando and the drugs.

Your not even using logic at all your being closed-minded about Kai Leng

Did I ever say that his killing of Liselle was racially motivated? You seem to like putting words into my mouth.  I said that he enjoyed it.  I did not say why he enjoyed it.  Was it racially motivated?  I don't see evidence to support either way.  But he was racist.  Just look at all the other instances of Kai Leng's hatred for aliens.  He doesn't have to act on them to be racist.  But this has no real bearing on my initial statement that he enjoyed killing her.  It may have been necessary to kill her (she was a witness), but it was not necessary for him to do it himself, especially when he had more pressing concerns.  He didn't have to make it slow (why bother? she's unconscious, not gonna feel it anyway) to enjoy it.  How am I not using logic?  Point to one thing I've said about him enjoying it that was fallacious.

[jbblue05]

wizardryforever wrote...

Did I ever say that his killing of Liselle was racially motivated? You seem to like putting words into my mouth.  I said that he enjoyed it.  I did not say why he enjoyed it.  Was it racially motivated?  I don't see evidence to support either way.  But he was racist.  Just look at all the other instances of Kai Leng's hatred for aliens.  He doesn't have to act on them to be racist.  But this has no real bearing on my initial statement that he enjoyed killing her.  It may have been necessary to kill her (she was a witness), but it was not necessary for him to do it himself, especially when he had more pressing concerns.  He didn't have to make it slow (why bother? she's unconscious, not gonna feel it anyway) to enjoy it.  How am I not using logic?  Point to one thing I've said about him enjoying it that was fallacious.

Now your stumbling with your words
You say he's a racist and he enjoyed killed the Asari Liselle  which implys that you believe he enjoyed killing her because he hates Asari.

Then you say he didn't have to kill her but he chose to which also implys that he killed her because he hates Asari.

Your being inconsistent and backtracking.

I Already gave my reason twice to why he killed her and if you keep asking the same question it proves  you believe he killed Liselle because he hates Asari.

Its obvious you have an assumption to why he killed Liselle since you brought it up

[wizardryforever]

My point is that he enjoyed killing Liselle.  He probably did enjoy it because she was an Asari.  That does not mean that was why he thought she had to be killed.  I just find it quite telling that he did it himself when he didn't have to.  In fact, he had more urgent things to do, like killing the Turian guards.

I think his character is interesting, but I have no wish to see him in ME3, especially if he's a sqaudmate.  I simply have no use for someone like that.

Modifié par wizardryforever, 28 septembre 2010 - 05:01 .

[StarcloudSWG]

The Teltin Facility *never* went rogue. They stole a four year old girl from her family and experimented on her for *eight years*. And never once did TIM look in or send an auditor? Bull. He *knew* what was going on, he just didn't care to officially 'know' because then he'd have to do something about it to salve what remains of his conscience.

[doagrl]

jbblue05 wrote...

doagrl wrote...

Aria took Omega from Patriarch and has overseen more than two centuries of stability (or what passes for stability on Omega). She protects her own interests and was shown to be ruthless when challenged by others just like herself (criminals) but she has never been shown as a tyrant who slaughters innocents or who willingly risks the lives of her people no reason.

And no terrorist actually considers themselves to be a terrorist, they're all "freedom fighters" and totally justified in the actions they take because they're fighting for a cause. What we have been shown in game & in the books about Cerberus paints a very clear picture of an organization that will do anything no matter the cost in blood and lives to reach its goal of human domination. They have killed countless people (innocent people) including many, many humans (how very pro-human of them), kidnapped children, tortured aliens (see Trapdoor), sold illegal weapons to criminal gangs, assasinated political opponents, drug dealing, ran horrible illegal experiments (Rachni/Thorian creepers/thresher maw) and the list goes on. 

I can understand if you believe in the Cerberus platform (I don't) but I can understand that there are some who like the idea of human dominance in the ME universe but I can't for the life of me understand how you can just sweep all the horrific,evil crap that TIM has done under the rug and pretend like Cerberus is as white as snow.

Aria is a tyrant you have two or three conversations with her and you know her entire history and tactics

Answer these questions what is Terrorism and what terrorist act has Cerberus done?
Do you know Cerberus body count and Aria's body count.
When did Cerberus kill innocent civilians? 
The Teltin Facility went rogue. Most children were bought from poor families on Earth or bought from Batarian slavers. Jack was acquired by lying to her mother. What that Cerberus cell is unforgivable but doesn't represent what all goes on in Cerberus.

A few Asari were used to test out a drug that could neutralize biotics which is a technological breakthrough.  Those Asari could've been kidnapped, acquired from slavers, killed, or released after the experiments.

Most people who join Cerberus are well-aware of the risks and still sign up.. The people aren't forced against their will 

I don't sweep what Cerberus has done under the rug.
I know their is more then one side of the story, I'm not short-sighted and a tool to propaganda.

 

This is a pointless debate if you insist on making up or alluding to "facts" that have never been shown to us by Bioware over the course of the games & the supplemental resources (books, comics, etc).

There has never been any evidence provided to us that Aria is anything more than a run of the mill crime gang leader who took over a lawless Omega from an aging Krogan crime gang lord no longer capable of holding
on to control. There is nothing in game that points to Aria acting "tyrannical" in her rule of Omega. Her rules as they have been explained in game and backed up with quite a bit of evidence is that she is in control and she doesn't like to be challenged, cheated or in her words "****ed with" but that is a long way from threatening innocents or murdering non-combatants (mercs who are conducting their illegal activities on her station and not paying out her required "cut" are not non-combatants).

 Likewise everything that we know about Cerberus has been shown to us in game and in the books. This is not "propaganda" it is Bioware's official story for the Cerberus organization meaning you can't just gloss over it and pretend like you know some "real" truth that does not exist.

 The facts are that Cerberus have been responsible for the deaths of many people - Akuze, Edolus, Adm Kohoku, most of the people at Listening Posts Alpha & Theta, the colonists on Chasca, etc.

 They have conducted political assassinations - Menneau, Gavrikov, Pope Clement

 They have infiltrated the media & corrupted the Alliance political process for their own gain - destroying or assassinating those who would oppose Cerberus, placing Saracino as head of Terra Firma.

 They have taken over criminal organizations in order to help fund their "cause" - assassinating Salarian gang leaders to take over their drug trade, selling illegal weapons to the syndicates in the Terminus systems.

 They performed experiments on captured Asari to test biotic disruption drugs (the key word being captured), tried to create super soldiers by capturing & testing Thorian creepers & Rachni.

 They built the so-called rogue facility on Pragia with the express intent of conducting biotic experiments on children, to the end of building a human super-biotic. Regardless of how far left the Pragia researchers went to meet those goals, the initial crime was building the facility in the first place which is dropped right at the feet of TIM.

 It appears that you have an idea of what Cerberus is and you seek to twist the facts that Bioware has given us regarding this organization to fit those noble ideals you want to believe in. But any organization who kills innocents, corrupts the normal democratic processes of a people, kidnaps children and treats sentient beings like test subjects is a terrorist organization in my book.

Modifié par doagrl, 28 septembre 2010 - 10:53 .

[Godeskian]

You know, when I first read that some folks didn't consider cerberus a terrorist organisation I assumed they were being satirical or at the very least simply arguing both sides of a point.



To find out that people seriously think they aren't terrorists is a little disturbing

[jbblue05]

doagrl wrote...

This is a pointless debate if you insist on making up or alluding to "facts" that have never been shown to us by Bioware over the course of the games & the supplemental resources (books, comics, etc).

There has never been any evidence provided to us that Aria is anything more than a run of the mill crime gang leader who took over a lawless Omega from an aging Krogan crime gang lord no longer capable of holding
on to control. There is nothing in game that points to Aria acting "tyrannical" in her rule of Omega. Her rules as they have been explained in game and backed up with quite a bit of evidence is that she is in control and she doesn't like to be challenged, cheated or in her words "****ed with" but that is a long way from threatening innocents or murdering non-combatants (mercs who are conducting their illegal activities on her station and not paying out her required "cut" are not non-combatants).

You're right this is pointless and I'm not making stuff up or alluding the facts. Please explain where I made something up.

Why do you defend Aria so much you barely know anything about her all you see is her sitting in the club giving you intel she doesn't tell you anything about her methods or practices.  In Retribution she orders a hit on a rival gang and does TIM's bidding for Credits.
You know absolutely next to nothing about Aria she's been around for centuries while you get a very small dose of her.
Aria is a CRIME LORD she controls most of Omega with no formal government gangs control Omega they just pay Aria protection money.
You should read Mass Effect Ascension to better understand just how dangerous Omega can get.

 Likewise everything that we know about Cerberus has been shown to us in game and in the books. This is not "propaganda" it is Bioware's official story for the Cerberus organization meaning you can't just gloss over it and pretend like you know some "real" truth that does not exist.

It is propaganda against Cerberus they only tell you one side of the story in ME1 which is propaganda. Then in ME2 they have you work for Cerberus.  You think you know everything about Cerberus because you read 2 sentences about their involement.   The "real truth" is that their is more to the story.  Refusing to look deeper and coming up with an assumption is just being a "tool to propaganda"

 The facts are that Cerberus have been responsible for the deaths of many people - Akuze, Edolus, Adm Kohoku, most of the people at Listening Posts Alpha & Theta, the colonists on Chasca, etc.

Cerberus does have a lot of deaths on their hands

Akuze- You realize that's the 1st time Humanity made contact with thresher maws.  You do know its possible the colony was built close to a thresher maw nest unknowingly.  Why would Cerberus want to destroy an entire human colony?
The only thing connecting Cerberus is the ALLIANCE SCIENTISTS.

Edolus- Kahoku's men were playing with fire and were acting outside of Alliance Command

Listening Posts- Cerberus didn't send the Rachni their the Rachni killed the Cerberus crew. The Rachni colonized Allahe and Nepmos it was just a coincidence the Alliance were on those planets

Chasca- The Exogeni team were working for Cerberus studying Dragon's teeth giving Cerberus samples.  You can't blame Cerberus because look at the MSV Cornucoppia and the research team in the Hades Gamma Cluster Derelict Reaper.  People are 'indoctrinated' by the Dragons teeth and impale themselves to be husks

 They have conducted political assassinations - Menneau, Gavrikov, Pope Clement

That's politics for you don't act like the Council Races and the Alliance would never do such a thing

 They have infiltrated the media & corrupted the Alliance political process for their own gain - destroying or assassinating those who would oppose Cerberus, placing Saracino as head of Terra Firma.

 Their are people high in Alliance Command  who are pro-Cerberus.  You don't know the Alliance political process they   claim "Cerberus is rogue" but they still fund Cerberus indirectly.
Your infiltrated the media point is pure BS.  The media is just a tool for the highest bidder.
Terra Firma is an Alliance political party who knows if the Alliance wanted Saracino to win and not just Cerberus.

 They have taken over criminal organizations in order to help fund their "cause" - assassinating Salarian gang leaders to take over their drug trade, selling illegal weapons to the syndicates in the Terminus systems.

What's the big deal the Alliance does the same thing with Lord Dareus.
Who cares if they killed Salarian gane members their scum  don't show double standards if your going to give Ariia a pass you have to give Cerberus one.
Cerberus did play a big part in helping humans take over the Skyllian Verge

 They performed experiments on captured Asari to test biotic disruption drugs (the key word being captured), tried to create super soldiers by capturing & testing Thorian creepers & Rachni.

The keyword is captive the Asari could've been mercenaries or slavers that were captured during a raid  its not clear how they were acquired
They didn't experiment on the Asari for the "lulz"  Cerberus needed to study biotics and Cerberus made a breakthrough in technology they created a drug that neutralizes biotics.

About those super soldiers you should listen to Miranda in ME2 she gives a really good reason.

 They built the so-called rogue facility on Pragia with the express intent of conducting biotic experiments on children, to the end of building a human super-biotic. Regardless of how far left the Pragia researchers went to meet those goals, the initial crime was building the facility in the first place which is dropped right at the feet of TIM. 

Their was nothing wrong creating a biotic school for children the Alliance did the same thing with the Ascension project.

The Cerberus cell on Teltin facility went rogue what they did was an abomination. 
TIM didn't restart the Teltin facility he  piggy-backed on the Ascension Program because they were more ethical
TIM is a results at all costs guy but I think he draws the line at children
 

It appears that you have an idea of what Cerberus is and you seek to twist the facts that Bioware has given us regarding this organization to fit those noble ideals you want to believe in. But any organization who kills innocents, corrupts the normal democratic processes of a people, kidnaps children and treats sentient beings like test subjects is a terrorist organization in my book.

I'm not twisting the facts Bioware purposely left holes in the story so people can come up with their own opinions on what's really going on
Judging by your views on what terrorism is the Council is the biggest Terrorist Organization in the galaxy
I think you need to better understand the meaning of terrorism and ethics because your distorting the truth about terrorism

Modifié par jbblue05, 28 septembre 2010 - 03:23 .

[doagrl]

jbblue05 wrote...

doagrl wrote...

This is a pointless debate if you insist on making up or alluding to "facts" that have never been shown to us by Bioware over the course of the games & the supplemental resources (books, comics, etc).

There has never been any evidence provided to us that Aria is anything more than a run of the mill crime gang leader who took over a lawless Omega from an aging Krogan crime gang lord no longer capable of holding
on to control. There is nothing in game that points to Aria acting "tyrannical" in her rule of Omega. Her rules as they have been explained in game and backed up with quite a bit of evidence is that she is in control and she doesn't like to be challenged, cheated or in her words "****ed with" but that is a long way from threatening innocents or murdering non-combatants (mercs who are conducting their illegal activities on her station and not paying out her required "cut" are not non-combatants).

You're right this is pointless and I'm not making stuff up or alluding the facts. Please explain where I made something up.

Why do you defend Aria so much you barely know anything about her all you see is her sitting in the club giving you intel she doesn't tell you anything about her methods or practices.  In Retribution she orders a hit on a rival gang and does TIM's bidding for Credits.
You know absolutely next to nothing about Aria she's been around for centuries while you get a very small dose of her.
Aria is a CRIME LORD she controls most of Omega with no formal government gangs control Omega they just pay Aria protection money.
You should read Mass Effect Ascension to better understand just how dangerous Omega can get.

 Likewise everything that we know about Cerberus has been shown to us in game and in the books. This is not "propaganda" it is Bioware's official story for the Cerberus organization meaning you can't just gloss over it and pretend like you know some "real" truth that does not exist.

It is propaganda against Cerberus they only tell you one side of the story in ME1 which is propaganda. Then in ME2 they have you work for Cerberus.  You think you know everything about Cerberus because you read 2 sentences about their involement.   The "real truth" is that their is more to the story.  Refusing to look deeper and coming up with an assumption is just being a "tool to propaganda"

 The facts are that Cerberus have been responsible for the deaths of many people - Akuze, Edolus, Adm Kohoku, most of the people at Listening Posts Alpha & Theta, the colonists on Chasca, etc.

Cerberus does have a lot of deaths on their hands

Akuze- You realize that's the 1st time Humanity made contact with thresher maws.  You do know its possible the colony was built close to a thresher maw nest unknowingly.  Why would Cerberus want to destroy an entire human colony?
The only thing connecting Cerberus is the ALLIANCE SCIENTISTS.

Edolus- Kahoku's men were playing with fire and were acting outside of Alliance Command

Listening Posts- Cerberus didn't send the Rachni their the Rachni killed the Cerberus crew. The Rachni colonized Allahe and Nepmos it was just a coincidence the Alliance were on those planets

Chasca- The Exogeni team were working for Cerberus studying Dragon's teeth giving Cerberus samples.  You can't blame Cerberus because look at the MSV Cornucoppia and the research team in the Hades Gamma Cluster Derelict Reaper.  People are 'indoctrinated' by the Dragons teeth and impale themselves to be husks

 They have conducted political assassinations - Menneau, Gavrikov, Pope Clement

That's politics for you don't act like the Council Races and the Alliance would never do such a thing

 They have infiltrated the media & corrupted the Alliance political process for their own gain - destroying or assassinating those who would oppose Cerberus, placing Saracino as head of Terra Firma.

 Their are people high in Alliance Command  who are pro-Cerberus.  You don't know the Alliance political process they   claim "Cerberus is rogue" but they still fund Cerberus indirectly.
Your infiltrated the media point is pure BS.  The media is just a tool for the highest bidder.
Terra Firma is an Alliance political party who knows if the Alliance wanted Saracino to win and not just Cerberus.

 They have taken over criminal organizations in order to help fund their "cause" - assassinating Salarian gang leaders to take over their drug trade, selling illegal weapons to the syndicates in the Terminus systems.

What's the big deal the Alliance does the same thing with Lord Dareus.
Who cares if they killed Salarian gane members their scum  don't show double standards if your going to give Ariia a pass you have to give Cerberus one.
Cerberus did play a big part in helping humans take over the Skyllian Verge

 They performed experiments on captured Asari to test biotic disruption drugs (the key word being captured), tried to create super soldiers by capturing & testing Thorian creepers & Rachni.

The keyword is captive the Asari could've been mercenaries or slavers that were captured during a raid  its not clear how they were acquired
They didn't experiment on the Asari for the "lulz"  Cerberus needed to study biotics and Cerberus made a breakthrough in technology they created a drug that neutralizes biotics.

About those super soldiers you should listen to Miranda in ME2 she gives a really good reason.

 They built the so-called rogue facility on Pragia with the express intent of conducting biotic experiments on children, to the end of building a human super-biotic. Regardless of how far left the Pragia researchers went to meet those goals, the initial crime was building the facility in the first place which is dropped right at the feet of TIM. 

Their was nothing wrong creating a biotic school for children the Alliance did the same thing with the Ascension project.

The Cerberus cell on Teltin facility went rogue what they did was an abomination. 
TIM didn't restart the Teltin facility he  piggy-backed on the Ascension Program because they were more ethical
TIM is a results at all costs guy but I think he draws the line at children
 

It appears that you have an idea of what Cerberus is and you seek to twist the facts that Bioware has given us regarding this organization to fit those noble ideals you want to believe in. But any organization who kills innocents, corrupts the normal democratic processes of a people, kidnaps children and treats sentient beings like test subjects is a terrorist organization in my book.

I'm not twisting the facts Bioware purposely left holes in the story so people can come up with their own opinions on what's really going on
Judging by your views on what terrorism is the Council is the biggest Terrorist Organization in the galaxy
I think you need to better understand the meaning of terrorism and ethics because your distorting the truth about terrorism

This is the end of the line for me since I see there is no way to have a rational discussion with someone who persists in remaking canon out of their own fan fiction. Everything you write is about how something else "could" have happened to explain away every horrible, disastrous event Cerberus has ever been involved in with no regards for the story which has been told by the actual creators of this universe.

I've read many, many posts by other Cerberus fans/defenders and came away at least understanding their points even if I didn't agree with them but I have never seen anyone persist in re-writing the very story that Bioware has built from the ground up the way you have in this thread.

I can only assume (hope) that you are pulling a prank and playing the role of Devil's advocate here because the alternative is more than a little disturbing to think about.

Modifié par doagrl, 28 septembre 2010 - 11:51 .

[jbblue05]

doagrl wrote...


This is the end of the line for me since I see there is no way to have a rational discussion with someone who persists in remaking canon out of their own fan fiction. Everything you write is about how something else "could" have happened to explain away every horrible, disastrous event Cerberus has ever been involved in with no regards for the story which has been told by the actual creators of this universe.

I've read many, many posts by other Cerberus fans/defenders and came away at least understanding their points even if I didn't agree with them but I have never seen anyone persist in re-writing the very story that Bioware has built from the ground up the way you have in this thread.

I can only assume (hope) that you are pulling a prank and playing the role of Devil's advocate here because the alternative is more than a little disturbing to think about.

I'm not making anything up I'm using facts from the mass effect series to support my reason.

I mean really point out 1 thing I made up.

Bioware created the mass effect universe but they intentionally wanted the consumer to come up with their own viewpoint.
I'm sorry if I don't 100% believe every brief explanation Bioware gives.