145 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

filetemo wrote...

one thing is the half million D&D classes and minor variations and then there's dao with...3.

Right, and...?

in thedas from rivain to ferelden everybody is sword and board, two hander or dual wielder. As rogue from orlais to orzammar everybody is dual wielder or archer.

First, only everyone in Ferelden uses these weapons. Obviously these are the only classes possible in DA, but DA is set only in Ferelden, so it's very possible all the other kinds of fighting styles are not there, lore wise.

So everybody fights and looks the same even having never seen each other? And also, there's the fact that nobody ever in the continent of thedas who was born as a mage tried to train to be competent with a sword (except some elves who tried to improve martial skills with magic 400 years ago which knowledge was resumed in a book)

The Chantry doesn't let mages learn to fight, which you coincidentally can do if you get the arcane warrior specialty.

And if divine magic is stupid and has no place in dao because the maker left us many centuries ago and we don't even know if there's an afterlife, what kind of rule-breaking creature is the guardian of the sacred ashes? a man who has been there for a millenia, knows the facts of the whole life of the warden and his companions? wouldn't you call that, "a spirit"? Couldn't be that a new and amazing class? "Knights of the sacred ashes"?

DA:A and Ogrhen in DA give you an alternate interpretation: lyrium and its special properties, including effects on the dead.

That's not my point, though. Divine magic isn't stupid because of lore - it's stupid because divine magic as an idea is stupid, in my opinion.

It has nothing to do with whether or not gods exist. I happen to think anthropomorphic greek gods are terrible implementation.

[filetemo]

In Exile wrote...

one thing is the half million D&D classes and minor variations and then there's dao with...3.

Right, and...?

too much classes lead to diluting differences. Three clases shoehorn too many archetypes

First, only everyone in Ferelden uses these weapons. Obviously these are the only classes possible in DA, but DA is set only in Ferelden, so it's very possible all the other kinds of fighting styles are not there, lore wise.

in DA2 we see other parts of Thedas and yet there's only three classes for all the npcs we met outisde ferelden

The Chantry doesn't let mages learn to fight, which you coincidentally can do if you get the arcane warrior specialty.

There's many apostates who could belong to an order who emphasizes learning swordfighting besides magic. And the arcane warrior spec was improving strenght with magic, not learning martial skills

Modifié par filetemo, 30 juillet 2010 - 08:10 .

[filetemo]

In Exile wrote...

DA:A and Ogrhen in DA give you an alternate interpretation: lyrium and its special properties, including effects on the dead.

oghren is speculating because he doesn't know what to make about the guardian of the ashes. Morrigan calls him "spirit", an equally ambiguous assumption.

All the epicness of the sacred ashes quest is destroyed if you really believe to think that what we saw was not a guardian of andraste and a divinelly magic bag of ashes, but instead an hallucination caused by an overload of lyrium.

So what I choose to believe is that they proved us divine magic exists in DAO.

[HopHazzard]

filetemo wrote...

In Exile wrote...

DA:A and Ogrhen in DA give you an alternate interpretation: lyrium and its special properties, including effects on the dead.

oghren is speculating because he doesn't know what to make about the guardian of the ashes. Morrigan calls him "spirit", an equally ambiguous assumption.

All the epicness of the sacred ashes quest is destroyed if you really believe to think that what we saw was not a guardian of andraste and a divinelly magic bag of ashes, but instead an hallucination caused by an overload of lyrium.

So what I choose to believe is that they proved us divine magic exists in DAO.

And I choose to believe it's a spirit using people's belief in Andraste for its own purposes. The very fact that it's ambiguous and open to interpretation means that it cannot be absolute proof that divine magic exists.

[Grommash94]

Although I don't believe that divine magic exists in DA, the Guardian was very, very strange. If he is indeed a spirit, then he has to be imitating someone that already existed, and yet that doesn't explain how he knew so much about the Warden and his companions.

[filetemo]

Grommash94 wrote...

 yet that doesn't explain how he knew so much about the Warden and his companions.

exactly. All that quest is made to make us believe that

the maker exists
andraste was real
those are her ashes and are magic
hence, their magic comes from divine source

HopHazzard wrote...
And I choose to believe it's a
spirit using people's belief in Andraste for its own purposes. The very
fact that it's ambiguous and open to interpretation means that it cannot
be absolute proof that divine magic exists.

then you didn't feel the epicness of the quest as those who choose to believe they were in front of the ashes of the very Maker's chosen prophet

unless... you are chosing to believe this right now just to counter argument my post...

[HopHazzard]

Well, no I didn't find it particularly epic, but even if I were just doing it to play devil's advocate it doesn't invalidate my argument. The very fact that there are viable alternative explanations means it can't be used as definitive proof of the Maker's existence.

[milkymcmilkerson]

filetemo wrote...

My point is that you say: it's normal to not be able to play this class because the game doesn't allow you to do so.

And I say: it must be changed

The game allowed you to be a templar, blood mage, whatever, but just later on in the game. The story wasn't written for someone with that skill set's origin story. They chose certain origins for narrative reasons.

The game mechanics are fine, it seems you're gripe is with the story.

[Aratham Darksight]

Grommash94 wrote...

Although I don't believe that divine magic exists in DA, the Guardian was very, very strange. If he is indeed a spirit, then he has to be imitating someone that already existed, and yet that doesn't explain how he knew so much about the Warden and his companions.

And yet he seems to know little of the world at large. That the Tevinter Imperium no longer controls Thedas is news to him, even though knowing the Imperium's state would be quite important to him, seeing as he claims that he will exist so long as it does.

My interpretation is that the Guardian is a limited mind-reader. All the information he miraculously knows, you just delivered to him yourself. He only needs to establish a topic and pull out the relevant memory that comes to the forefront of your mind.

[filetemo]

so the other possible outcome is that he was a spirit of the fade or a demon, that andraste's ashes were just a bag of lyrium dust, and that we saw the temple and the guardian in its current form thanks to an intoxication of lyrium that made us hallucinate.



Really guys? you re going to choose that as a viable option?

[Grommash94]

Aratham Darksight wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

Although I don't believe that divine magic exists in DA, the Guardian was very, very strange. If he is indeed a spirit, then he has to be imitating someone that already existed, and yet that doesn't explain how he knew so much about the Warden and his companions.

And yet he seems to know little of the world at large. That the Tevinter Imperium no longer controls Thedas is news to him, even though knowing the Imperium's state would be quite important to him, seeing as he claims that he will exist so long as it does.

My interpretation is that the Guardian is a limited mind-reader. All the information he miraculously knows, you just delivered to him yourself. He only needs to establish a topic and pull out the relevant memory that comes to the forefront of your mind.

The problem is that the Guardian knows things that our characters, and companions, don't really think of constantly; its just their deepest, darkest secrets. Zevran's particular assassination, Sten's killings, and the various things that your character does depending on their origin. Plus, I don't think there is any magic that we encountered in-game that lets you read minds, not even blood magic.  I think he is just some sort of enigma, and not something that is ever going to be properly explained.

Modifié par Grommash94, 30 juillet 2010 - 08:44 .

[HopHazzard]

filetemo wrote...

so the other possible outcome is that he was a spirit of the fade or a demon, that andraste's ashes were just a bag of lyrium dust, and that we saw the temple and the guardian in its current form thanks to an intoxication of lyrium that made us hallucinate.

Really guys? you re going to choose that as a viable option?

Why not? To a lot of people that makes a hell of a lot more sense than your explanation.

[Grommash94]

HopHazzard wrote...

filetemo wrote...

so the other possible outcome is that he was a spirit of the fade or a demon, that andraste's ashes were just a bag of lyrium dust, and that we saw the temple and the guardian in its current form thanks to an intoxication of lyrium that made us hallucinate.

Really guys? you re going to choose that as a viable option?

Why not? To a lot of people that makes a hell of a lot more sense than your explanation.

It isn't definitive evidence of the Maker existing, that is for sure. But, the alternative theory of Andraste's ashes being a bag of lyrium and the whole hallucination thing doesn't make too much sense either.

[HopHazzard]

Grommash94 wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

filetemo wrote...

so the other possible outcome is that he was a spirit of the fade or a demon, that andraste's ashes were just a bag of lyrium dust, and that we saw the temple and the guardian in its current form thanks to an intoxication of lyrium that made us hallucinate.

Really guys? you re going to choose that as a viable option?

Why not? To a lot of people that makes a hell of a lot more sense than your explanation.

It isn't definitive evidence of the Maker existing, that is for sure. But, the alternative theory of Andraste's ashes being a bag of lyrium and the whole hallucination thing doesn't make too much sense either.

Well, the ashes are definitely real, they may even have been Andraste's. That doesn't mean their healing properties aren't the result of having sat there soaking up all that magic for thousands of years or that anything we saw there actually happened.

[Aratham Darksight]

Grommash94 wrote...

The problem is that the Guardian knows things that our characters, and companions, don't really think of constantly; its just their deepest, darkest secrets. Zevran's particular assassination, Sten's killings, and the various things that your character does depending on their origin.

Do they really not think about these memories? It certainly does't take too much digging for them to come up in you personal conversations. These are generally recent, traumatic events, life-changing even. They might be dark and hidden, but not exactly deep and forgotten.

Plus, I don't think there is any magic that we encountered in-game that lets you read minds, not even blood magic. I think he is just some sort of enigma, and not something that is ever going to be properly explained.

Not any magic wielded by man, but desire demons... pulling out the deepest and darkest is what they do. Now, I'm not saying that the Guardian is a demon, just that such powers are not entirely unprecedented.

And of course it is said that the Magister Lords of old had the power to invade the dreams of others. The Gauntlet was built in the same age that they ruled in.

[Grommash94]

Aratham Darksight wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

The problem is that the Guardian knows things that our characters, and companions, don't really think of constantly; its just their deepest, darkest secrets. Zevran's particular assassination, Sten's killings, and the various things that your character does depending on their origin.

Do they really not think about these memories? It certainly does't take too much digging for them to come up in you personal conversations. These are generally recent, traumatic events, life-changing even. They might be dark and hidden, but not exactly deep and forgotten.

Plus, I don't think there is any magic that we encountered in-game that lets you read minds, not even blood magic. I think he is just some sort of enigma, and not something that is ever going to be properly explained.

Not any magic wielded by man, but desire demons... pulling out the deepest and darkest is what they do. Now, I'm not saying that the Guardian is a demon, just that such powers are not entirely unprecedented.

And of course it is said that the Magister Lords of old had the power to invade the dreams of others. The Gauntlet was built in the same age that they ruled in.

The Magister Lords used the Fade, though, and even then it was, as you said, the dreams of others, not their thoughts. I dunno, the whole mind reading thing just doesn't really work...I mean, it is a Blight, your character is there to do a single thing, he/she is focused, and the Guardian is able to, out of nowhere, bring back all the painful memories that occured during the Origins, several months back? 

[HTTP 404]

OP creates a problem that doesnt exist and demand answers to it?



Anyway Lothering is near the Kocari wilds which makes barbarians possible. In origins any fighter can learn to be a templar from Alistair. Being a Mage would be the same back story as the sister who plays a mage! Also in DA2 it spans 10 years!! thats enough time to get your doctorate's degree so I can imagine it not being too difficult for someone adept at magic to be a mage. Any more specifics to address?

[filetemo]

HTTP 404 wrote...

 Any more specifics to address?

address at least one before asking for more <_<

Modifié par filetemo, 30 juillet 2010 - 09:12 .

[HTTP 404]

filetemo wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

 Any more specifics to address?

address at least one before asking for more <_<

well I did, apparently not the answers you want to hear.  I get the impression (where you were talking about how someone can be a mage, rogue, etc if cut from the same cloth: Hawke) that you enjoyed the Origins stories and hate to see it gone in DA2.  I get that, the origins stories were cool but I dont think that because the Origins is lacking that the game will be lacking.

[Aratham Darksight]

Grommash94 wrote...

The Magister Lords used the Fade, though, and even then it was, as you said, the dreams of others, not their thoughts. I dunno, the whole mind reading thing just doesn't really work...I mean, it is a Blight, your character is there to do a single thing, he/she is focused, and the Guardian is able to, out of nowhere, bring back all the painful memories that occured during the Origins, several months back?

*shurg* It works well enough for me.

If I tell you not to think of kangaroos under any circumstance, you will think of kangaroos even though we were just talking about Dragon Age. I didn't even need magic to do it.

The desire demon in the Circle Tower managed to bring out that templar's dreams for a family in the middle of a battle. And it wasn't on home turf, with the power of a large Lyrium vein feeding it.

edit: Whether the source is divine or not, the Guardian's knowledge is strangely limited to the feelings and personal memories of the person he is currently talking to.

Modifié par Aratham Darksight, 30 juillet 2010 - 09:22 .

[filetemo]

HTTP 404 wrote...

  I get the impression (where you were talking about how someone can be a mage, rogue, etc if cut from the same cloth: Hawke) that you enjoyed the Origins stories and hate to see it gone in DA2

well, no, that's really not what I'm talking about.

In this thread we are discussing the need (or not) of new classes besides rogues, mages, and warriors. At this moment the thread derived to the discussion of "does divine magic exist in Thedas?" to justify lore-wise the existence of divine magic classes, as paladins and clerics.

At this moment I would suggest you to read the last two pages of the thread because there's a very interesting and deep discussion about magic while we delightfully dissect the urn of the sacred ashes quest.

[Grommash94]

Aratham Darksight wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

The Magister Lords used the Fade, though, and even then it was, as you said, the dreams of others, not their thoughts. I dunno, the whole mind reading thing just doesn't really work...I mean, it is a Blight, your character is there to do a single thing, he/she is focused, and the Guardian is able to, out of nowhere, bring back all the painful memories that occured during the Origins, several months back?

The desire demon in the Circle Tower managed to bring out that templar's dreams for a family in the middle of a battle. And it wasn't on home turf, with the power of a large Lyrium vein feeding it.

edit: Whether the source is divine or not, the Guardian's knowledge is strangely limited to the feelings and personal memories of the person he is currently talking to.

Well, the way desire demons work is they just use their victims' greatest desires to gain control of them, and feed on them. It isn't really reading minds so much as it is knowing what you want the most in life.

And I agree with your edit.

[HopHazzard]

Grommash94 wrote...
Well, the way desire demons work is they just use their victims' greatest desires to gain control of them, and feed on them. It isn't really reading minds so much as it is knowing what you want the most in life.

Maybe the guardian is a spirit of remorse.

[Aratham Darksight]

Grommash94 wrote...

Well, the way desire demons work is they just use their victims' greatest desires to gain control of them, and feed on them. It isn't really reading minds so much as it is knowing what you want the most in life.

I don't see that as a big distinction, personally.

[Grommash94]

HopHazzard wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...
Well, the way desire demons work is they just use their victims' greatest desires to gain control of them, and feed on them. It isn't really reading minds so much as it is knowing what you want the most in life.

Maybe the guardian is a spirit of remorse.

Could be, if such a thing exists. Although, can remorse be classified as something a benevolent spirit would take the persona of? 

I don't doubt that a Guardian is a spirit, but I do doubt that he is just a run of the mill spirit. He seems to be unique, and he, and the other spirits who are there, seem to be there to defend the ashes, for reasons unknown. I guess they are just believers of the Maker; Justice said that some spirits do indeed believe in him, I think.