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[HTTP 404]

filetemo wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

  I get the impression (where you were talking about how someone can be a mage, rogue, etc if cut from the same cloth: Hawke) that you enjoyed the Origins stories and hate to see it gone in DA2

well, no, that's really not what I'm talking about.

I just did but I didnt think there were rules not to address OP.  quote as you said...

"If you wanted to create a barbarian, how could hawke be one if he lived in lothering? barbarians come from iced lands, from the deserts, the mountains, being a barbarian is not a combat class, is a way of life. You can't be one being born in a small town.

If you wanted to be a templar (which, well designed, would be a paladin-like class very differentiated from a regular warrior) how could you be living in a village, outside of your order?

If you wanted to create a necromancer,or a shaman, how could it be possible? you are a man living in a small town, how could you learn those arts? even the mage class for hawke should bring back story on how he is not chased by templar since he comes not from magi tower (and, BTW, I'd like to see how templars from kirkwall react in-game to a mage hawke, it would be weird if the talked to you as if you were some marrior or rogue not making comments on your aparent freedom from the circle)

All these classes could be added as sub-specializations for the other three classes, but they would not be as deep as a new class and certainly not fit the lore.
Having different origins would fix this, but voiced character means that, in case of doing them, it would be a hawke-like character (as in "pre-made") being voiced for all the origins, that could maybe be a solution, but always with having to record more dialogue and having a hawke barbarian, or hawke vampire, or hawke voiced qunari."

You are arguing that Hawke is a predetermined character as opposed to what?? (reading in between the lines) DAO!  what does DAO have?  (more powers of deduction!) Origin Stories!!

If you were arguing that it could affect gameplay where DA2 would probably be a simplified gameplay for various reasons such as Mass Effect-like dialog and interaction, easy to use fighting, etc I would be more inclined to agree with you that DA2 will be a simple 3 class game.  I disagree with your reasons it would be a simple 3 class game because Hawke is from one town?? give me a break.

But you are right, you obviously werent talking about that.  But Ill leave you guys to youre magic type talk.

[filetemo]

I'm arguing about the fact a predetermined character which is also voiced over can't fit in classes who do not suit his background because some classes need different origins to be credible, so this restricts a much needed (in my opinion) expansion in the number of classes.A problem only fixed if bioware is willing to give us an enough open background story to fit the new classes, or if indeed they are willing to add more classes, or if they are willing to add dialogue to cover the new dialogue branches that could come with new classes and how your character gets recognised by npcs in game world.



So, sorry, but you missed my point again

[In Exile]

filetemo wrote...
oghren
is speculating because he doesn't know what to make about the guardian
of the ashes. Morrigan calls him "spirit", an equally ambiguous
assumption.

So? There's no conclusive evidence of any kind of Maker, much less any magic someone who believes in the Maker really hard could use.

All the epicness of the sacred ashes quest is
destroyed if you really believe to think that what we saw was not a
guardian of andraste and a divinelly magic bag of ashes, but instead an
hallucination caused by an overload of lyrium.

I never said that was what the guardian was. All I said was that it was not divine magic. Not to mention that whether or not you think divine magic makes a particular quest epic, it's all irrelevant to whether or not the Maker, and so divine magic exists.

I mean, seriously, as of right now your argument is "it would be more awesome if we had divine magic, and this one quest is less awesome if divine magic didn't exist, so divine magic exists".

Grommash94 wrote...
The problem is that the Guardian knows things that our characters, and companions, don't really think of constantly; its just their deepest, darkest secrets. Zevran's particular assassination, Sten's killings, and the various things that your character does depending on their origin. Plus, I don't think there is any magic that we encountered in-game that lets you read minds, not even blood magic.  I think he is just some sort of enigma, and not something that is ever going to be properly explained.

But we do have magic that could do just that: in the Fade, with the Sloth demon. He re-created Duncan for you, Goldanna for Alistair, Flemeth for Morrigan...

We've seen spirits do precisely this sort of thing.

Grommash94 wrote...
It isn't definitive evidence of the Maker
existing, that is for sure. But, the alternative theory of Andraste's
ashes being a bag of lyrium and the whole hallucination thing doesn't
make too much sense either.

The Guardian could simply be a type of Ash Wraith. Those things were probably once human, and lyrium may have altered them. We know, for example, that a Tear in the veil leads to physical experiences of past memories. Who's to say lyrium doesn't have other properties.

Put another way: we know too little about lyrium to rule out any reality bending properties any more than we can rule out a reality bending superbeing. There just isn't evidence for either.

[Grommash94]

In Exile wrote...


The Guardian could simply be a type of Ash Wraith. Those things were probably once human, and lyrium may have altered them. We know, for example, that a Tear in the veil leads to physical experiences of past memories. Who's to say lyrium doesn't have other properties.

Put another way: we know too little about lyrium to rule out any reality bending properties any more than we can rule out a reality bending superbeing. There just isn't evidence for either.

I agree. I'm not sure about the Ash Wraith theory though, as, when you fight the Guardian, he remains in his form, whereas if you fail one of the riddles in the Gauntlet, they do indeed become Ash Wraiths. One theory could just be that the entire temple has a tear in the Fade, and the Guardian is simply powerful enough to manipulate this one part of the fade.

[HTTP 404]

filetemo wrote...

I'm arguing about the fact a predetermined character which is also voiced over can't fit in classes who do not suit his background because some classes need different origins to be credible, so this restricts a much needed (in my opinion) expansion in the number of classes.A problem only fixed if bioware is willing to give us an enough open background story to fit the new classes, or if indeed they are willing to add more classes, or if they are willing to add dialogue to cover the new dialogue branches that could come with new classes and how your character gets recognised by npcs in game world.

So, sorry, but you missed my point again

I'll ignore that last bit you said...
I disagree that some classes need different origins to be credible which was what my original post was addressing.  I do think with a 10 year span that bioware will/could give enough of an open story instead of having a background story.  I think Dialog will hardly address what class you are in the game much like the mass effect games.

However, I do agree with you that itll be 3 simple classes without any depth to them for different reasons that you posted...

[filetemo]

Tell me the thruth: when you actually played the urn of sacred ashes quest, did you feel you were infront of the gauntlet of the ashes and the ashes of andraste herself? Did you feel you were infront of a divine spirit? Did you feel you found the holy grail of thedas?



most probably yes, because that is what that quest makes you feel, and that's what developers wanted you to feel.They wanted yo to feel you were infront of an ancient guardian, in front of the bride of andraste and the presence of the maker himself in that room.



Now months later, you have to search in the deepest of your lore knowledge the arguments to reply with all kinds of theories why what you saw there is not what you and everybody thought they saw. Why? because some forum member claims that there's divine magic in thedas. Because that forum member felt exactly like you in the quest and thought the ashes were divinelly magic.



But now, you deny your own feelings. Don't.

The maker exists, divine magic exists, and divine magic spellcasters have a place in DAO lore.

[HopHazzard]

filetemo wrote...

I'm arguing about the fact a predetermined character which is also voiced over can't fit in classes who do not suit his background because some classes need different origins to be credible, so this restricts a much needed (in my opinion) expansion in the number of classes.A problem only fixed if bioware is willing to give us an enough open background story to fit the new classes, or if indeed they are willing to add more classes, or if they are willing to add dialogue to cover the new dialogue branches that could come with new classes and how your character gets recognised by npcs in game world.

So, sorry, but you missed my point again

I think you're drawing a connection between the character being voiced and the character being predetermined where none exists. All the PC's in DAO were predetermined. We just had six to choose from.

And you are creating a problem where none exists. You're saying that having a predetermined character prevents us from playing as classes that don't exist. And you've yet to suggest a class that doesn't exist that can't be handled by adding a specialization to one of the existing three classes we currently have to work with.

[HopHazzard]

filetemo wrote...

Tell me the thruth: when you actually played the urn of sacred ashes quest, did you feel you were infront of the gauntlet of the ashes and the ashes of andraste herself? Did you feel you were infront of a divine spirit? Did you feel you found the holy grail of thedas?

most probably yes, because that is what that quest makes you feel, and that's what developers wanted you to feel.They wanted yo to feel you were infront of an ancient guardian, in front of the bride of andraste and the presence of the maker himself in that room.

Now months later, you have to search in the deepest of your lore knowledge the arguments to reply with all kinds of theories why what you saw there is not what you and everybody thought they saw. Why? because some forum member claims that there's divine magic in thedas. Because that forum member felt exactly like you in the quest and thought the ashes were divinelly magic.

But now, you deny your own feelings. Don't.
The maker exists, divine magic exists, and divine magic spellcasters have a place in DAO lore.

I'll thank you not to tell me what I felt.

[Grommash94]

filetemo wrote...

The maker exists, divine magic exists, and divine magic spellcasters have a place in DAO lore.

See, not even David Gaider has said that the maker exists. He said that it is going to be left ambigious, and for good reason too. It makes the world seem much more 'real'...for in real life, believing in God is based on faith, and faith alone.

Divine magic does not exist. For example, when you ask the Revered Mother in Redcliffe to bless the knights with divine protection, she says it is not possible, for that is not how it works. The Maker, if He exists, does not interfere or just randomly give powers.

I would argue that the Maker is no more than a powerful Spirit of the Fade, but thats another discussion.

[HTTP 404]

HopHazzard wrote...

filetemo wrote...

I'm arguing about the fact a predetermined character which is also voiced over can't fit in classes who do not suit his background because some classes need different origins to be credible, so this restricts a much needed (in my opinion) expansion in the number of classes.A problem only fixed if bioware is willing to give us an enough open background story to fit the new classes, or if indeed they are willing to add more classes, or if they are willing to add dialogue to cover the new dialogue branches that could come with new classes and how your character gets recognised by npcs in game world.

So, sorry, but you missed my point again

I think you're drawing a connection between the character being voiced and the character being predetermined where none exists. All the PC's in DAO were predetermined. We just had six to choose from.

And you are creating a problem where none exists. You're saying that having a predetermined character prevents us from playing as classes that don't exist. And you've yet to suggest a class that doesn't exist that can't be handled by adding a specialization to one of the existing three classes we currently have to work with.

dont bother he'll probably just say you missed his point as well

[filetemo]

HopHazzard wrote...


 And you've yet to suggest a class that doesn't exist that can't be handled by adding a specialization to one of the existing three classes we currently have to work with.

any class can be handled through specializations, that's just not the way to do it.

You could even join all three classes in one and choose trees and subtrees strenght magic and dexterity.Once you choose that path, there's no turning back and you get either four mage, rogue, or warrior skills.

but that, is not the point.There's many classes that deserve a better status than a small icon in the inventory screen and four new skills.

[In Exile]

filetemo wrote...

Tell me the thruth: when you actually played the urn of sacred ashes quest, did you feel you were infront of the gauntlet of the ashes and the ashes of andraste herself? Did you feel you were infront of a divine spirit? Did you feel you found the holy grail of thedas?

What the hell? No, I didn't.

most probably yes, because that is what that quest makes you feel, and that's what developers wanted you to feel.They wanted yo to feel you were infront of an ancient guardian, in front of the bride of andraste and the presence of the maker himself in that room.

They wanted to create that atmosphere, yet at the same time maintain the possibility that the Maker isn't real, beause this is what David Gaider pretty much explicitly says he thinks faith is.

You should read how harshly he treats the D&D idea of what a god is, and how he doesn't even believe faith as a concept exists in that world.

I happen to agree. Swearing fealty to a god is different than having faith in one.

Now months later, you have to search in the deepest of your lore knowledge the arguments to reply with all kinds of theories why what you saw there is not what you and everybody thought they saw. Why? because some forum member claims that there's divine magic in thedas. Because that forum member felt exactly like you in the quest and thought the ashes were divinelly magic.

Again, no. I never thought the ashes were magic. The first time I was there, I killed the guardian because I wouldn't play along with his stupid "Prostate yourself before Andraste!" line. And I wanted that helmet. It was a really, really snazzy helmet.

But now, you deny your own feelings. Don't.
The maker exists, divine magic exists, and divine magic spellcasters have a place in DAO lore.

The end you were near was apparently deep, and jumping seems to accurately describe what you did.

Also, where was the maker when you corrupted the ashes with some awesome dragonblood in the insane pagan ritual option?

[filetemo]

Grommash94 wrote...

filetemo wrote...

The maker exists, divine magic exists, and divine magic spellcasters have a place in DAO lore.

See, not even David Gaider has said that the maker exists. He said that it is going to be left ambigious, and for good reason too. It makes the world seem much more 'real'...for in real life, believing in God is based on faith, and faith alone.

Divine magic does not exist. For example, when you ask the Revered Mother in Redcliffe to bless the knights with divine protection, she says it is not possible, for that is not how it works. The Maker, if He exists, does not interfere or just randomly give powers.

I would argue that the Maker is no more than a powerful Spirit of the Fade, but thats another discussion.

if you choose to believe the maker does not exist, half of the lore doesn't make sense and it loses all epic. Where have you seen a fantasy world with real gods?

And a simple revered mother can't bless things, thats pretty much obvious. Andraste could. Because that's exactly of divine magic works, you do things, that god grants you powers. Praying to him every night won't grant you anything.

[HopHazzard]

HTTP 404 wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

filetemo wrote...

I'm arguing about the fact a predetermined character which is also voiced over can't fit in classes who do not suit his background because some classes need different origins to be credible, so this restricts a much needed (in my opinion) expansion in the number of classes.A problem only fixed if bioware is willing to give us an enough open background story to fit the new classes, or if indeed they are willing to add more classes, or if they are willing to add dialogue to cover the new dialogue branches that could come with new classes and how your character gets recognised by npcs in game world.

So, sorry, but you missed my point again

I think you're drawing a connection between the character being voiced and the character being predetermined where none exists. All the PC's in DAO were predetermined. We just had six to choose from.

And you are creating a problem where none exists. You're saying that having a predetermined character prevents us from playing as classes that don't exist. And you've yet to suggest a class that doesn't exist that can't be handled by adding a specialization to one of the existing three classes we currently have to work with.

dont bother he'll probably just say you missed his point as well

Yes, well, he's apparently missing mine as well, so I guess all is fair.

[filetemo]

In Exile wrote...

Also, where was the maker when you corrupted the ashes with some awesome dragonblood in the insane pagan ritual option?

where's the insanity in corrupting them if they are not real?

gotcha

[Grommash94]

filetemo wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

filetemo wrote...

The maker exists, divine magic exists, and divine magic spellcasters have a place in DAO lore.

See, not even David Gaider has said that the maker exists. He said that it is going to be left ambigious, and for good reason too. It makes the world seem much more 'real'...for in real life, believing in God is based on faith, and faith alone.

Divine magic does not exist. For example, when you ask the Revered Mother in Redcliffe to bless the knights with divine protection, she says it is not possible, for that is not how it works. The Maker, if He exists, does not interfere or just randomly give powers.

I would argue that the Maker is no more than a powerful Spirit of the Fade, but thats another discussion.

if you choose to believe the maker does not exist, half of the lore doesn't make sense and it loses all epic. Where have you seen a fantasy world with real gods?

And a simple revered mother can't bless things, thats pretty much obvious. Andraste could. Because that's exactly of divine magic works, you do things, that god grants you powers. Praying to him every night won't grant you anything.

There is no canon lore though. Most of it comes from the codex entries, and that is in itself subjective. The great thing about Thedas is that it allows people to speculate about the gods, and about magic and all these interesting things, without being tied down by the idea that there is an omnipotent creator. We don't know that Andraste could bless things; in fact, she was most likely a powerful mage, perhaps possessed (sort of) by a benevolent Fade spirit (the Maker was attracted by her singing, which may just be a way of saying that a spirit took up the cause of defeated the Imperium, and really Andraste and thought she could accomplish it). Heck, maybe the reason her ashes are so powerful is just a result of her own strength.

Modifié par Grommash94, 30 juillet 2010 - 10:28 .

[In Exile]

filetemo wrote...

where's the insanity in corrupting them if they are not real?

gotcha

Well, they don't save Arl Eamon, so you've really screwed yourself on that end. The whole point of going along with Isolde's crazy idea is that these magic ashes might save Eamon. Intentionally wrecking them is, well, incredibly stupid, and therefore probably insane.

[HopHazzard]

filetemo wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

filetemo wrote...

The maker exists, divine magic exists, and divine magic spellcasters have a place in DAO lore.

See, not even David Gaider has said that the maker exists. He said that it is going to be left ambigious, and for good reason too. It makes the world seem much more 'real'...for in real life, believing in God is based on faith, and faith alone.

Divine magic does not exist. For example, when you ask the Revered Mother in Redcliffe to bless the knights with divine protection, she says it is not possible, for that is not how it works. The Maker, if He exists, does not interfere or just randomly give powers.

I would argue that the Maker is no more than a powerful Spirit of the Fade, but thats another discussion.

if you choose to believe the maker does not exist, half of the lore doesn't make sense and it loses all epic. Where have you seen a fantasy world with real gods?

And a simple revered mother can't bless things, thats pretty much obvious. Andraste could. Because that's exactly of divine magic works, you do things, that god grants you powers. Praying to him every night won't grant you anything.

I know that's what you think. I just don't see how you can't understand that that's all just your opinion.

But let's say you're right. The Maker is real. And Andraste was his super special prophet that he gave divine powers to. How do you work that into the story as an ability that can possessed by a player character? You'd have to do a whole story about a new prophet of the Maker or the second coming of Andraste. If you make Maker's Prophet just a class you can pick at character creation than it seriously cheapens Andraste's story. Suddenly she's not so special.

[Skilled Seeker]

filetemo you have a very narrow minded view of things.

[In Exile]

HopHazzard wrote...
But let's say you're right. The Maker is real. And Andraste was his super special prophet that he gave divine powers to. How do you work that into the story as an ability that can possessed by a player character? You'd have to do a whole story about a new prophet of the Maker or the second coming of Andraste. If you make Maker's Prophet just a class you can pick at character creation than it seriously cheapens Andraste's story. Suddenly she's not so special.

If we have that class, I want the option to set myself on fire to forgive my sin. One of the chantry guys in Lothering frowned on that, but I happen to think it's a splendid idea. If it worked for Andraste, after all...

[filetemo]

In Exile wrote...

filetemo wrote...

where's the insanity in corrupting them if they are not real?

gotcha

Well, they don't save Arl Eamon, so you've really screwed yourself on that end.

no, you take a bit of them before defliling the rest, so you still cure the Arl, I did it to unlock reaver class and still you get a tiny bit of uncorrupted ashes.

[HopHazzard]

filetemo wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Also, where was the maker when you corrupted the ashes with some awesome dragonblood in the insane pagan ritual option?

where's the insanity in corrupting them if they are not real?

gotcha

Who said they're not real? They're clearly real, and they work as advertised. There's just no indication that they're not anything but lyrium infused dust. It's crazy to corrupt them because they're the most reliable panacea in the world, not because they're Andraste's ashes.

[filetemo]

HopHazzard wrote...


I know that's what you think. I just don't see how you can't understand that that's all just your opinion.

But let's say you're right. The Maker is real. And Andraste was his super special prophet that he gave divine powers to. How do you work that into the story as an ability that can possessed by a player character? You'd have to do a whole story about a new prophet of the Maker or the second coming of Andraste. If you make Maker's Prophet just a class you can pick at character creation than it seriously cheapens Andraste's story. Suddenly she's not so special.

Well, I already gave birth to a kid with the soul of an old god, does that cheapen the mysticism of the old gods? I think not.

The problem with you guys, is that you try to impose your views (maker doesn't exist, ashes not divine, Gauntlet a simple fade spirit) who have like 5% chance of being true over the general assumption of how things are (maker exists, gauntlet from divine origin, andraste ashes divine power) because that's what the game, the lore, the story, the developers drive you to think.

[filetemo]

HopHazzard wrote...



 It's crazy to corrupt them because they're the most reliable panacea in the world, not because they're Andraste's ashes.

most reliable? at the moment of picking them up nobody knows if they are even going to cure the arl or if it was just a false legend.

do not make things up.

[Skilled Seeker]

filetemo wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...


I know that's what you think. I just don't see how you can't understand that that's all just your opinion.

But let's say you're right. The Maker is real. And Andraste was his super special prophet that he gave divine powers to. How do you work that into the story as an ability that can possessed by a player character? You'd have to do a whole story about a new prophet of the Maker or the second coming of Andraste. If you make Maker's Prophet just a class you can pick at character creation than it seriously cheapens Andraste's story. Suddenly she's not so special.

Well, I already gave birth to a kid with the soul of an old god, does that cheapen the mysticism of the old gods? I think not.

The problem with you guys, is that you try to impose your views (maker doesn't exist, ashes not divine, Gauntlet a simple fade spirit) who have like 5% chance of being true over the general assumption of how things are (maker exists, gauntlet from divine origin, andraste ashes divine power) because that's what the game, the lore, the story, the developers drive you to think.

You are totally missing the point. You are the one imposing your views here, the others are simply saying it might not be true. And the developers left it ambiguous on purpose.