162 réponses à ce sujet

[joriandrake]

andar91 wrote...

Bugzehat wrote...

LdyShayna wrote...

I would be very disappointed if it's the big bad evil church you must crush. I'm hoping, at the very least, you can side with certain elements within the Chantry and Templars. I don't have these homicidal tendencies towards the templars or sisters others seem to harbor.

Yeah, "the Chantry is evil, crush the Chantry" would be pretty hamfisted. Given Origins, though, I'm willing to bet it's more complicated, with different elements of the Chantry being pitted against each other.

Yeah, I don't think the writers would be that blunt.  If we do have to fight the Chantry, I have a feeling it will be an extreme radical branch or something.  Sort of like what KKK is to the Christian church (in America, anyway).

I just hope we can support the "good guys" to take controll and avoid the Chantry breaking apart

[Harcken]

Dragon Age Da Vinci style. Hope we get to discover some terrible Chantry conspiracy in relation to the Fade or the Black City, or some other supernatural place/thing.

[Dave of Canada]

Harcken wrote...

Dragon Age Da Vinci style. Hope we get to discover some terrible Chantry conspiracy in relation to the Fade or the Black City, or some other supernatural place/thing.

Why is that woman in the picture with the Maker?

Andraste's ashes aren't ashes.. they're Andraste!

Andraste is actually Andraste's ashes?!

[jjbens]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Harcken wrote...

Dragon Age Da Vinci style. Hope we get to discover some terrible Chantry conspiracy in relation to the Fade or the Black City, or some other supernatural place/thing.

Why is that woman in the picture with the Maker?

Andraste's ashes aren't ashes.. they're Andraste!

Andraste is actually Andraste's ashes?!

whaat?

[Behindyounow]

Good. Lots of zealous idiots to burn alive for imprisoning their betters.

[Sable Rhapsody]

jln.francisco wrote...

I don't get why people like the Chantry. What purpose do they serve, really? The Templars reveal themselves ignorant of magic, the Fade (the Templars you speak to in Ostagar don't even know if the Fade is real) and demons. Plus they can't even do their basic job of detecting abominations and uncovering Blood Magic! A Senior Mage and a sizable portion of the student body were practicing Blood Magic and the Knight Commander can only focus on a single Blood Mage. And after he and several of his knights are taken out by said Blood Mage (in a very non lethal totally restrained manor) they still can't get their act together. Really? These are the first line of defense against abominations and demons?

I wonder how often Tevinter has outbreaks. Is it ever mentioned in the game or any of the codex? The Mage's Collective seems very good at policing it's own but they aren't really explored in depth. I'm not aware of any abomination troubles the Dalish face.

To me, the Chantry seems to serve the purpose of the pre-Reformation Catholic Church, before it was stripped of a lot of its political power cerca the Treaty of Westphalia.  They are a multinational, ostensibly multiracial (though it only seems to be the City Elves who ascribe to their beliefs too) religious organization that allows for some political cohesion in Thedas.  If you mean in-universe, then I wonder too.  We don't know anything about Tevinter's mages or the Dalish mages, who are relatively unpoliced.  The only Dalish mage we run into with questionable ties is Zathrian.  I'd maybe classify what he did as blood magic, since it did unnaturally prolong his life, but I wouldn't call Zathrian an abomination per se.  As you can tell Wynne, abomination is characterized by a mindless urge to destroy.

Your point about the templars is part of the reason why I think mages should have a strong, if not exclusive role in policing themselves.  Templars don't go through the Harrowing.  They don't have that intimate connection to the Fade.  They have no practical experience of the very things they're supposed to guard against.

[Grommash94]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

I don't get why people like the Chantry. What purpose do they serve, really? The Templars reveal themselves ignorant of magic, the Fade (the Templars you speak to in Ostagar don't even know if the Fade is real) and demons. Plus they can't even do their basic job of detecting abominations and uncovering Blood Magic! A Senior Mage and a sizable portion of the student body were practicing Blood Magic and the Knight Commander can only focus on a single Blood Mage. And after he and several of his knights are taken out by said Blood Mage (in a very non lethal totally restrained manor) they still can't get their act together. Really? These are the first line of defense against abominations and demons?

I wonder how often Tevinter has outbreaks. Is it ever mentioned in the game or any of the codex? The Mage's Collective seems very good at policing it's own but they aren't really explored in depth. I'm not aware of any abomination troubles the Dalish face.

  We don't know anything about Tevinter's mages or the Dalish mages, who are relatively unpoliced. 

Do we really know that though? We don't know much about their traditions, and for all we know the Dalish keepers make sure that their young go through a similar 'test' like the Harrowing. A test to make sure that they will not be vulnerable to Fade spirits. Maybe, if they fail, they are forbidden to practice magic.

The way I see it, in Tevinter it really is just as bad as the rest of Thedas. There, being a mage means that you are set above the rest of the people, and are given a special place in society. That is, imo, just as bad as having the mages confined to the Circle and treated badly.. I would imagine, though, that they too would have some sort of system to make sure that their mages are prepared against the threat of being possessed.

I mean, these two groups may not have templars, but that doesn't necessarily mean that their mages have absolute freedom. The problem with magic in the DA universe is that it is a really tricky business, and I would argue that a reckless mage is one of the most dangerous things in all of Thedas.

[RevengeofNewton]

Kordaris wrote...

I hope they don't jump on the bash-the-organised-religion bandwagon which is so cliche.

The Templars and Chantry had a good reason for their actions as events in Mage Circle Tower show in Dragon Age 1.

Uh, what happened at the tower could very well be attributed to the fact that the templars hold the mages in an iron grip. You know, self full-filling prophecy and all that jazz.


Also, you never make sense. Just sayin'.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Grommash94 wrote...

Do we really know that though? We don't know much about their traditions, and for all we know the Dalish keepers make sure that their young go through a similar 'test' like the Harrowing. A test to make sure that they will not be vulnerable to Fade spirits. Maybe, if they fail, they are forbidden to practice magic.

The way I see it, in Tevinter it really is just as bad as the rest of Thedas. There, being a mage means that you are set above the rest of the people, and are given a special place in society. That is, imo, just as bad as having the mages confined to the Circle and treated badly.. I would imagine, though, that they too would have some sort of system to make sure that their mages are prepared against the threat of being possessed.

I mean, these two groups may not have templars, but that doesn't necessarily mean that their mages have absolute freedom. The problem with magic in the DA universe is that it is a really tricky business, and I would argue that a reckless mage is one of the most dangerous things in all of Thedas.

Just to clarify--I meant relatively unpoliced by something like the templars.  Sorry--that was poor word choice on my part earlier.

Tevinter is an interesting case, now that you bring it up.  They got burned--and HOW--for misusing magic against others, and yet they've split off from the Chantry, recanted the official Chantry position, and set up their own Imperial Chantry.  Mages rule Tevinter and have since several Ages ago, and yet they haven't done anything awful.  They haven't declared any wars, caused any Blights--ya know, the stereotypical Tevinter things   That may be because of the qunari on their doorstep, but one way or another, the Tevinter Imperium has been consistently ruled by mages since the schism with the Chantry without any major repercussions--and managed to hold off the qunari to boot.  We don't know the details, but maybe the Imperium could teach a free Ferelden Circle some lessons.

[Altima Darkspells]

Why Blood Magic is bad on a practical level: It allows you to control and dominate the will of someone else. This is confirmed in game in Warden's Keep.



Mind Control vs. Killing with your brain: When you kill someone with your brain, they're blatantly dead. Now, on the other hand, imagine a blood mage dominating the will of a monarch.



Now the Imperial Chantry is very mage-friendly. They claim that one of the Magister Lords had a change of heart and killed Andraste rather than let her be burned alive. They're also open to the possibility that Andraste herself was a mage. As such, they took Andraste's crusade not as a condemnation of *all* mages, but of magical excess and abuse. Which, sounds reasonable, but on the other hand, may simply be a scheme to allow the mages there to keep their power.



Minrathous never falling, despite the number of Marches declared on them is interesting, though. Either Tevinter has an equal or greater number of mages under its control than the rest of the world--which is entirely possible, given how poorly mages are treated in Chantry nations and that Tevinter was the concentration of mages on Thedas for thousands of years--or their mages are much more powerful.



Now, the mages from Tevinter that you meet in DAO are blood mages. In fact, they're slavers who went across the continent to a Blight in order to procure lands, and the head mage claimed to be from the Circle in Minrathous. I find that such a sophisticated operation could be done alone by a handful of rogue mages. This leads me to believe that blood magic is still alive and well inside Tevinter.

[jjbens]

battles with the templars with both be political and physical.

[Irenie]

I think that some are underestimating the moral code of mages. Just because they could make a grab for power doesn't necessarily mean that they will. Mages are people with magic, they arn't a seperate power hungry people who must be evil because they are capable of great power. Surely this would be the same with a skilled warrior too no?



I think there is a lack of understanding of mages in alot of Thedas. When people are frightened they strike out, maybe they just need to be shown that there are alot of good mages out there who are capable of helping alot if given a chance. I'm not saying they are ignorant, they may well have good reasons. But maybe all they hear about is the bad and none of the good? Maybe over time people will feel better about letting mages police themselves? Not saying that there are no bad mages, but I beleive in giving people a chance and not assuming anything about anyone.



I'm reminded of one of the mages at the circle (Keili was her name I think) I felt so sorry for her because she had been convinced that because of her gift she was only deserving of death, even though she use her powers in healing. Very sad!



Everything takes time, but if it means a better future then it's worth a wait! ^^

(^ ohhhhh the cheeeese!!! I apologise!! ))

[Sable Rhapsody]

Altima Darkspells wrote...

Now, the mages from Tevinter that you meet in DAO are blood mages. In fact, they're slavers who went across the continent to a Blight in order to procure lands, and the head mage claimed to be from the Circle in Minrathous. I find that such a sophisticated operation could be done alone by a handful of rogue mages. This leads me to believe that blood magic is still alive and well inside Tevinter.

It could be one of those things where officially it's not ok, but if you're well-connected, subtle, or just plain rich, you can usually get away with it.

I have such a mixed opinion of Tevinter.  On one hand, they are just plain awesome.  They fended off Andraste, several Exalted Marches, the qunari, the first Blight before the Wardens had even been established, and they're still a force to be contended with despite all the crap they've been through.  No one, not even Andraste, managed to take Minrathous.  On the other hand, they treat non-magic users relatively poorly, and they maintain slavery for the elves.  Hmm.

Gwawr wrote...

I think that some are underestimating the moral code of mages. Just because they could make a grab for power doesn't necessarily mean that they will. Mages are people with magic, they arn't a seperate power hungry people who must be evil because they are capable of great power. Surely this would be the same with a skilled warrior too no?

My Warden is like this.  She was frustrated with the Chantry and hated the templars, not because she was out to do evil, but because she wanted to do some substantive good with her life and felt like she was unable to contribute locked up in a tower.  Irving is a good guy, and so is Wynne.  Even among so-called apostates, the Dalish Keepers are mages with duties to their people.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 31 juillet 2010 - 02:27 .

[Riona45]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

jjbens wrote...

since his sister is a mage maybe he fight the chantry because they have taken her or maybe he is sent by the chantry tofind his sister and bring her back to them

"Oh, hi, Imoen!  I mean--look, let's just call you Imoen."

Yeah...I hope it's not another rescue sis thing.  Especially since my Hawke erm...wouldn't do it. 

Heh.  Yeah, I'd really, really prefer that we not get a rehash of the Imoen plot.  And of course, any plot that hinges on Bethany being a mage would also have to account for the PC potentially being a mage.

[lunarknightmage]

if the Templars do play a major role in relation to the story and your character, it would be interesting, not just if Hawke were a mage, but also if he/she were a Templar.....



Like.....if you make your character a Templar.....the "corrupt" Templars would recognize you as a fellow Templar and thus try to recruit you to their cause.



OTOH, you could play your character as the "good" Templar who roots out the corrupt Templar order and restores honor to the city ( and to the Templar order )......

[lunarknightmage]

jln.francisco wrote...

lunarknightmage wrote...
OTOH, you could play your character as the "good" Templar who roots out the corrupt Templar order and restores honor to the city ( and to the Templar order )......

Or brings about Thedas' Reformation. That sounds like much more fun then the standard kill bad guys fantasy approach to things.

right.

or, maybe, if you are a "good" Templar who's trying to reform the order, the corrupt Templars will view you as a "rogue Templar."

perhaps that's how that Cassandra inquisitor character gets involved with Hawke.....

[Sable Rhapsody]

lunarknightmage wrote...

if the Templars do play a major role in relation to the story and your character, it would be interesting, not just if Hawke were a mage, but also if he/she were a Templar.....

Like.....if you make your character a Templar.....the "corrupt" Templars would recognize you as a fellow Templar and thus try to recruit you to their cause.

OTOH, you could play your character as the "good" Templar who roots out the corrupt Templar order and restores honor to the city ( and to the Templar order )......

The problem is that the game has to account for Hawke being a warrior, rogue, or mage.  I could see a warrior infiltrating the templars, maybe, or even a rogue.  But a mage Hawke would have a hard time fooling them.  Add that to the fact that Bethany is obviously a mage--provided she hasn't been killed by the time Hawke gets to Kirkwall--and there would have to be some story branching to allow mages or those who don't want to infiltrate the templars a different way of advancing the plot.

Riona45 wrote...

Heh.  Yeah, I'd really, really prefer that we not get a rehash of the Imoen plot.  And of course, any plot that hinges on Bethany being a mage would also have to account for the PC potentially being a mage.

Yeah, it was a bit of fail when the Cowled Wizards hauled Immy off to Spellhold...with my cleric of Mystra/mage Bhaalspawn standing right there <_<

[Insanehitman]

As long as i get to kill all the templars i want i'll be happy.

[jjbens]

side with or against the templars?

[Riona45]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Yeah, it was a bit of fail when the Cowled Wizards hauled Immy off to Spellhold...with my cleric of Mystra/mage Bhaalspawn standing right there <_<

Heh.  Although, at least in that game, people didn't seem to care if you were a mage as long as you didn't actually use magic on the streets of the city (strangely, no one cared what you did indoors, underground, or outside the city).  In DA2, the templars would care about the PC being a mage, period--if they have a problem with Bethany, they'd have a problem with the PC as well.

[mdfitz2]

maybe we will be doing a martin luther type thing ,but with more force

[RogueGeth]

Personally if I got the chance to reform the Chantry I would have five main points of change:

• Get the Chantry out of the political circles and stop corruption of some branches of the chantry
• Lessen the Chantry hold on Mages, give them some self-govern responsibilties.
• Keep the templars from being a overpowering force by putting Oaths and Laws on the order i.e. Thou shall not murderer mage without confirming they are a hostile apostate
• And actually train the Templars alongside the mages at some point and time.
• Also ask the mages if they can control summon a demon so a templar can learn how to seek, recongize  how to go against demons, abominations, and what not.

I think these five points would greatly approve mage life while keeping an eye on them and help templars be ready against the abominations, so something like Ferelden Circle of Magi incident won't happen. Also i would allow the Chantry and Mages intermingal and have relationships. Come on we don't want another Jowen incident where he wanted to leave with his girl because their relationship was forbidden.

[Sable Rhapsody]

RogueGeth wrote...
I think these five points would greatly approve mage life while keeping an eye on them and help templars be ready against the abominations, so something like Ferelden Circle of Magi incident won't happen. Also i would allow the Chantry and Mages intermingal and have relationships. Come on we don't want another Jowen incident where he wanted to leave with his girl because their relationship was forbidden.

You do bring up an excellent point, which is that the templars for all their fanatical devotion and ferocity, have trouble taking down fully-fledged abominations.  I mean, this might obviously be a gameplay conceit, and Uldred was not an easy fight, but my mind is boggled that a tower full of templars couldn't handle a handful of abominations and blood mages.  The bottom line is that the templars know a few anti-magic "spells," and from there on out it's just, "Well, the pointy end of the sword goes into the mage.  Maybe.  Hopefully."

Contrast that to Wynne and her cohorts in the Circle quest.  They'd been locked in there by the templars.  They were outnumbered and totally outmatched.  Yet those three mages managed to hold their own against all the abominations better than dozens of templars could.

[Riona45]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

You do bring up an excellent point, which is that the templars for all their fanatical devotion and ferocity, have trouble taking down fully-fledged abominations.  I mean, this might obviously be a gameplay conceit, and Uldred was not an easy fight, but my mind is boggled that a tower full of templars couldn't handle a handful of abominations and blood mages.  The bottom line is that the templars know a few anti-magic "spells," and from there on out it's just, "Well, the pointy end of the sword goes into the mage.  Maybe.  Hopefully."

And, in spite of the dramatic failure on the part of the templars in this case, the Uldred incident is still cited by people as proof that templars are necessary.  The templars couldn't solve the situation--it was the Warden who did that.  If anything, it can be used as proof that templars are ineffectual.

Modifié par Riona45, 01 août 2010 - 04:30 .