162 réponses à ce sujet

[jjbens]

side with them or against them

[Tsuga C]

LdyShayna wrote...

I would be very disappointed if it's the big bad evil church you must crush. I'm hoping, at the very least, you can side with certain elements within the Chantry and Templars. I don't have these homicidal tendencies towards the templars or sisters others seem to harbor.

You and me both, m' Lady.  The puerile urge to crap all over the Chantry and the Templars does not speak well for the moral and religious well being of the forumites.  I have a feeling that if you or I were in the employ of BioWare the Templars would be portrayed in a better light.  At the very least, greater justification for their existance would be shown in-game. 

[RangerSG]

Tsuga C wrote...

LdyShayna wrote...

I would be very disappointed if it's the big bad evil church you must crush. I'm hoping, at the very least, you can side with certain elements within the Chantry and Templars. I don't have these homicidal tendencies towards the templars or sisters others seem to harbor.

You and me both, m' Lady.  The puerile urge to crap all over the Chantry and the Templars does not speak well for the moral and religious well being of the forumites.  I have a feeling that if you or I were in the employ of BioWare the Templars would be portrayed in a better light.  At the very least, greater justification for their existance would be shown in-game. 

We could have an interesting discussion on *why* people are being led to dump on religion. Most people can't accept that there are good and bad aspects to organized 'anything.' And human beings without religion are still equally willing to kill each other by the millions (see Hiterlism, Stalinism, Maoism).

I would hope there is indeed some balance in how the Chantry and Templars are treated. And I agree that I would hope there is a more balanced view to them in DA2 as well.

[AlexXIV]

RangerSG wrote...

Tsuga C wrote...

LdyShayna wrote...

I would be very disappointed if it's the big bad evil church you must crush. I'm hoping, at the very least, you can side with certain elements within the Chantry and Templars. I don't have these homicidal tendencies towards the templars or sisters others seem to harbor.

You and me both, m' Lady.  The puerile urge to crap all over the Chantry and the Templars does not speak well for the moral and religious well being of the forumites.  I have a feeling that if you or I were in the employ of BioWare the Templars would be portrayed in a better light.  At the very least, greater justification for their existance would be shown in-game. 

We could have an interesting discussion on *why* people are being led to dump on religion. Most people can't accept that there are good and bad aspects to organized 'anything.' And human beings without religion are still equally willing to kill each other by the millions (see Hiterlism, Stalinism, Maoism).

I would hope there is indeed some balance in how the Chantry and Templars are treated. And I agree that I would hope there is a more balanced view to them in DA2 as well.

There are good things about the chantry. They care for the widows and orphans, the poor, the slaves etc. In city elf origin for example when the sister speaks against Vaughn. Also they keep the mages in check, which is a good thing unless you are the Warden from DA:O or some other superhuman hero who does not have to fear anything from anyone. That is, for normal people the Chantry is a good thing.

Though since we can be the Warden or Hawke and whoever else in future games, we can do better than the Chantry. The Chantry is still suppresses mages and does not really hold the truth over the Chant, so there is room to improve. Also there is no Maker to my knowledge which also leads to the question if this religion is not a bit overrated.

I am wondering though if you get in conflict with the Grey Wardens if you choose to oppose the Chantry. On one hand the Wardens support the Chantry, on the other hand the Wardens use every 'weapon' necessary to fight Darkspawn, so either bloodmagic or the Chantry are merely a means to and end.

I am curious how many 'political parties' we find in Kirkwall, and I suspect there will be more than 2 or 3. So choices could be alot more complex than just supporting one of two (or three) sides.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 11 août 2010 - 09:31 .

[AlexXIV]

 

Modifié par AlexXIV, 12 août 2010 - 12:51 .

[AlexXIV]

Something is wrong with this forum.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 11 août 2010 - 09:35 .

[Riona45]

Tsuga C wrote...

The puerile urge to crap all over the Chantry and the Templars does not speak well for the moral and religious well being of the forumites. 

I hope you're joking.

Honestly, do you really want to open up this can of worms?  You got all buttsore in another thread when you suspected people were bashing real life religion...and here you're passing judgment on the real life spiritual lives on anonymous forum users.  You know this is silly, so kindly desist and get over yourself.

[Cheese Elemental]

jln.francisco wrote...

RangerSG wrote...
 And human beings without religion are still equally willing to kill each other by the millions (see Hiterlism, Stalinism, Maoism). 

OMG Hitler was an atheist!

This just keeps getting better and better.

I don't see how that's funny. He was raised Catholic but turned atheist.

[Riona45]

And, Hilter would never have become important if he didn't have so many people willing to follow him. Is anyone here going to seriously argue that everyone who supported Hilter was a staunch atheist? Or that the "spirit" of the Third Reich was about atheism?

It's just a stupid card to play. That is what jln.francisco was getting at.

Modifié par Riona45, 12 août 2010 - 03:39 .

[RangerSG]

Riona45 wrote...

And, Hilter would never have become important if he didn't have so many people willing to follow him. Is anyone here going to seriously argue that everyone who supported Hilter was a staunch atheist? Or that the "spirit" of the Third Reich was about atheism?

It's just a stupid card to play. That is what jln.francisco was getting at.

It's not a 'stupid' card to play. It was a system that avidly subverted any and all organized believers other than a state-sponsored church that did not promulgate any 'morality' of any kind except the virtue of the Fatherland.

That's a matter of historical FACT. The dissenters who didn't flee went to the Camps with the rest or were driven underground.

So Francisco's response was ad hominem and oversimplified. I'm well aware of the evils people have done in the name of faith--any faith. But most people who line up that argument aren't willing to admit that organized atheism in a century and a half killed more in ITS name than anything else.

So John Lennon's little ditty isn't an invitation to a better world, either. The problem isn't religion of the lack of it. The problem is the human heart and its condition.

And that pertains to this thread because I would HOPE the designers would recognize that the world is far more complex than 'Chantry bad'/ not-Chantry good because they're not preaching at you.

[Riona45]

RangerSG wrote...

So Francisco's response was ad hominem and oversimplified. I'm well aware of the evils people have done in the name of faith--any faith. But most people who line up that argument aren't willing to admit that organized atheism in a century and a half killed more in ITS name than anything else.

Because even if it were true (and I'm not agreeing with you that it is), it's just an appeal to consequence and therefore a red herring.

And that pertains to this thread because I would HOPE the designers would recognize that the world is far more complex than 'Chantry bad'/ not-Chantry good because they're not preaching at you.

Not sure what you're getting at.  DA:O didn't give me the impression that all followers of Andraste were bad.  There were priestesses in the game who were mainly concerned with helping refugees and helpless townsfolk.  There was the templar in Denerim (Ser Otto) who seemed pretty benevolent to me.  And then there were all the others who just went about their business like normal people and weren't villains.

Modifié par Riona45, 12 août 2010 - 05:15 .

[Riona45]

filaminstrel wrote...

I really don't want to wade into a real world religion debate, but trying to draw moral equivalencies between real religion and the Chantry is bunk to begin with, IMO-- the Chantry is operating in a much different reality than we do. The moral conclusions we can draw regarding the Chantry are often Space Whale Aesops in our world-- unless letting mages roam runs the risk of allowing abominations to ravage the land in the real world, too?

You referenced TV Tropes.  I love that.

And of course, the Maker is said to have abandoned the world.  Most theists in the real world view their god/gods as decidedly more active/caring than that. 

[AlexXIV]

RangerSG wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

And, Hilter would never have become important if he didn't have so many people willing to follow him. Is anyone here going to seriously argue that everyone who supported Hilter was a staunch atheist? Or that the "spirit" of the Third Reich was about atheism?

It's just a stupid card to play. That is what jln.francisco was getting at.

It's not a 'stupid' card to play. It was a system that avidly subverted any and all organized believers other than a state-sponsored church that did not promulgate any 'morality' of any kind except the virtue of the Fatherland.

That's a matter of historical FACT. The dissenters who didn't flee went to the Camps with the rest or were driven underground.

So Francisco's response was ad hominem and oversimplified. I'm well aware of the evils people have done in the name of faith--any faith. But most people who line up that argument aren't willing to admit that organized atheism in a century and a half killed more in ITS name than anything else.

So John Lennon's little ditty isn't an invitation to a better world, either. The problem isn't religion of the lack of it. The problem is the human heart and its condition.

And that pertains to this thread because I would HOPE the designers would recognize that the world is far more complex than 'Chantry bad'/ not-Chantry good because they're not preaching at you.

I am not even going to adress rl references you are making, just saying this:

The Chantry is not bad because they are preaching, but they oppress mages just because they fear them and they have hardly any historical facts to base their Chant on. Basically they lie to people about alot of things. Whether they mean well or not doesn't really matter to me since all you need to do to be a demagoge is to make people believe in things that are not true.

[MDarwin]

Riona45 wrote...

And, Hilter would never have become important if he didn't have so many people willing to follow him. Is anyone here going to seriously argue that everyone who supported Hilter was a staunch atheist? Or that the "spirit" of the Third Reich was about atheism?

It's just a stupid card to play. That is what jln.francisco was getting at.

Onkel "Adi Hitler" did not gained power because of his religiouse believes. He "promised and gave them Order, Work and Food on the Table". Which the German had next to none in the "Weihmarer Republik".

Big Buisness supported him too. Krupp and so on, they knew that they play with fire when they supported him.
But making big money, was more important.

As for the concept of Blood Mages: My PC (all my Mages are Blood Mages) was a Blood Mage and I usualy play an "Evil (Aligned)" character.
In my mind evil does not mean that you kill someone or take power, because you can. It depends for me on the circuimstance, in a given situation.

My Blood Mage ended the Blight and one even made the ultimate sacrafice. I believe that as a Blood Mage my chances of killing the Arch Demon was greater than "just as a Mage". What's wrong with that?
Therefor the Chantry should not control the Mages. What if the Chantry feels threaten by the King/Queen and they use the Mages against the King/Queen?

Ok I admit, I did not save Redcliffe or the Arl's son, but that was because of diffrent reasons.

[Oblivious]

RangerSG wrote...
It's not a 'stupid' card to play. It was a system that avidly subverted any and all organized believers other than a state-sponsored church that did not promulgate any 'morality' of any kind except the virtue of the Fatherland.

That's a matter of historical FACT. The dissenters who didn't flee went to the Camps with the rest or were driven underground.

So Francisco's response was ad hominem and oversimplified. I'm well aware of the evils people have done in the name of faith--any faith. But most people who line up that argument aren't willing to admit that organized atheism in a century and a half killed more in ITS name than anything else.

So John Lennon's little ditty isn't an invitation to a better world, either. The problem isn't religion of the lack of it. The problem is the human heart and its condition.

And that pertains to this thread because I would HOPE the designers would recognize that the world is far more complex than 'Chantry bad'/ not-Chantry good because they're not preaching at you.

When exactly was this century in a half? I even have to point this out, many (most) people become Atheists in an attempt to escape being shackled to any organization or religion for any reason, especially because somebody says they should and will suffer if they don't. Seems pretty stupid for an entire sect of society who despise the idea of joining an organization would create one for 150 years, especially if it got such a large body count. 

So when exactly did Atheism get organized, how exactly did it reach the power to murder (I'm assuming) hundreds, and where did it get the funding to last over a century?

Btw, I hope that we aren't tied to simply supporting one sect of the Chantry of another. There are plenty of things I am willing to split over the Chantry; the heads of some Templars, the Chant of Light, the legs of a few priestesses (Leliana was only the first, many more will follow:police:), and even a few priestesses if they anger me enough (Like that Ostagar lady that called me a "heathen" and said that the Wardens recruiting people like me would forever be their greatest weakness). I have no intention of splitting one religion in multiple religions however. We all know what happened when the Abrahamic religions split and when those sects split even more:crying:

Modifié par Oblivious, 12 août 2010 - 11:51 .

[Sternchen]

MDarwin wrote:

"Onkel "Adi Hitler" did not gained power because of his religiouse believes. He "promised and gave them Order, Work and Food on the Table". Which the German had next to none in the "Weihmarer Republik".

Big Buisness supported him too. Krupp and so on, they knew that they play with fire when they supported him.
But making big money, was more important."

I think we all want believe, if somebody tell us, that all what we want will be true. An that´s why we play this games. We are the heros. Bioware makes it true. In our heads we know, that we never could do this thinks. It would be better, they had played the world war two on computers. I´m german. Sorry for my spelling mistakes.

I´m looking forward to play DA2. I hope it will be so unique like DAO.

Modifié par Sternchen, 12 août 2010 - 12:03 .