63 réponses à ce sujet

[Sable Rhapsody]

Three things first:  I have every bit of respect for BioWare and their games, I am not whining, and I do not think tropes are bad.  I'd like to point out that all the "changes" that have people to declaring DA2 a betrayal of "old-school" RPGs like BG2 are in fact prevalent in a lot of BioWare's games.

Now that that's out of the way, have a look at this: http://img189.images...5/bwcliches.png

Here's what we know so far about DA2 with the trope chart.

[*]You hail from humble origins: Played straight.  Hawke comes from Lothering.[*]A devastating battle sends your quiet life spinning out of balance:  Largely played straight.  The Blight's close enough.[*]The attack leaves you alone with two companions, of magical and partial prowess: Loosely fits with Bethany.[*]Undaunted by the attack, you are swiftly invited into an elite order that places you into a position of power and authority over the rest of humanity: Loosely fits.  We know nothing about any elite order, but we do know that Hawke eventually becomes the Champion of Kirkwall...and the key person who changes Thedas.[*]You discover that you must travel to four main locations to save the world/galaxy: Debatable.  The devs have told us that there's no "saving the world from great evil plot," though I'll eat my socks if we don't go to four or so main locations anyway.[*]With your mission underway, your every effort is thwarted by an evil/sinister organization: Debatable.  The templars/Chantry could certainly fit the bill.[*]At some point, you fall asleep and there's a dream sequence: No data available
[*]Further along in your journeys, you discover the ruins of a sprawling ancient civilization: No data available


This remind you guys of anything?  Possibly...just maybe...Baldur's Gate?  Baldur's Gate had a set backstory, set character, set heritage, and set family.  It had at most about 4-5 dialog options per conversation, and often only two.  Yeah, you could pick the PC's race, but it had no bearing whatsoever on the story.  One origin, a plot ultimately about who the Bhaalspawn WAS as a person rather than what s/he did (Who is the Champion of Kirkwall, anyone?), quite a lot of railroading down to canonizing BG1's party composition--and it was simply a fantastic game.  If anything, looking at the chart, DA:O stands out as the oddball.

I'm not saying any one game is better or worse than another.  But if you're going to talk about BioWare "betraying" its "old-school" roots with DA2, have another look.  Anything familiar?

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 29 juillet 2010 - 10:29 .

[Grommash94]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Three things first:  I have every bit of respect for BioWare and their games, I am not whining, and I do not think tropes are bad.  I'd like to point out that all the "changes" that have people to declaring DA2 a betrayal of "old-school" RPGs like BG2 are in fact prevalent in a lot of BioWare's games.

Now that that's out of the way, have a look at this: http://img189.images...5/bwcliches.png

Here's what we know so far about DA2 with the trope chart.
[list][*]You hail from humble origins: Played straight.  Hawke comes from the quiet, sleepy village of Lothering.

I believe that has yet to be confirmed. It has only been stated that he lived there for a while; we have no idea how long.

I don't think we know just enough yet to judge whether BioWare will follow the same sequence. They probably will, but I, personally, hope not.

[stevej713]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
If anything, looking at the chart, DA:O stands out as the oddball.

If it wasn't for the 20-45 minute origins, DAO would fit perfectly into it.

I do think that the "ancient civilization" thing is beginning to show in DA2, with Kirkwall being a once-powerful city for the Imperium.

Modifié par stevej713, 29 juillet 2010 - 10:09 .

[Shepard Lives]

Very cool, excellent job.



Tropes Are Not Bad, indeed.

[AlanC9]

Methinks that chart's gonna need an update.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Grommash94 wrote...
I believe that has yet to be confirmed. It has only been stated that he lived there for a while; we have no idea how long. 
I don't think we know just enough yet to judge whether BioWare will follow the same sequence. They probably will, but I, personally, hope not.

OK.  Edited it for clarity--thanks.

stevej713 wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
If anything, looking at the chart, DA:O stands out as the oddball.

If it wasn't for the 20-45 minute origins, DAO would fit perfectly into it.

I do think that the "ancient civilization" thing is beginning to show in DA2, with Kirkwall being a once-powerful city for the Imperium.

See, that's exactly my point.  The things that distinguish DA:O from the other games are the origins.  Everyone's FLIPPING A S*** over the lack of origins and race choices for the PC, but the use of the origins and their incorporation into the main plot is UNIQUE TO DA:O, NOT a callback to games like BG2, Fallout, PS:T, etc.  If anything, it's quite the opposite.

As for the Tevinter Imperium, I would love to see them more than anything else.  But the only concept art we've got is of (possibly) Hawke and crew in the Deep Roads.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Oh, and as for following the same formula over and over--meh. It. Works. I'm not going to complain if BioWare deviates from the formula, but I'm sure it'll be fine if they stick to it too. The key is not creativity. There are no new stories or ideas. The key is implementation.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Grommash94 wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...


[*]You hail from humble origins: Played straight.  Hawke comes from the quiet, sleepy village of Lothering.

I believe that has yet to be confirmed. It has only been stated that he lived there for a while; we have no idea how long.

I hope they don't answer that question.  Let us decide.

[Grommash94]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...


[*]You hail from humble origins: Played straight.  Hawke comes from the quiet, sleepy village of Lothering.

I believe that has yet to be confirmed. It has only been stated that he lived there for a while; we have no idea how long.

I hope they don't answer that question.

Same here.

[Dave of Canada]

Hawke is a (wo)man who was being trained by Master Li for the past few years, on a stroll through a park an armored man shows up and kills the Master Li as you run away (witnesses blame you were running away from the Blight). You then find yourself in a town called Taris where the Grey Wardens are preparing to free the town from the Sith Empire, Death's Hand shows up and gives you a cup holding Bhaalspawn blood and forces you to drink it or else you'd be stuck unable to compelete the main quest.

You awaken and you're now one with the force, you fight through four different locations with each their own individual themes fighting the now-Werewolf Sith Empire. After you complete each location, you're killed by the armored man from earlier that is actually Master Li. You now wake up in the Fade and team up with Commander Shepard in an effort to escape the Cowled Wizards attempting to arrest you for the unauthorized use of biotics.

Through the use of technology of an ancient civilization in the Fade, you escape due to the Lazarus Project and arrive to the Citadel in time to notice that the Sith are killing the Grey Wardens, you fight through the Sith Werewolves and arrive to the top of the Ebon Hawke to find Master Li who for some reason is missing his jaw. He threatens to kill you and you fight to the death.

As Master Li dies, you're given the choice of either sleeping with Morrigan or keeping the collector base. The epilogue card shows up and says that you disappeared the next day to new adventures.. for another time.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 29 juillet 2010 - 10:32 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Grommash94 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...


[*]You hail from humble origins: Played straight.  Hawke comes from the quiet, sleepy village of Lothering.

I believe that has yet to be confirmed. It has only been stated that he lived there for a while; we have no idea how long.

I hope they don't answer that question.

Same here.

It could be that they give you the conversation to answer that question in dialog, kind of like how dialog in KOTOR 2 established Revan's fate.

[Sappy69]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Hawke is a (wo)man who was being trained by Master Li for the past few years, on a stroll through a park an armored man shows up and kills the Master Li as you run away (witnesses blame you were running away from the Blight). You then find yourself in a town called Taris where the Grey Wardens are preparing to free the town from the Sith Empire, Death's Hand shows up and gives you a cup holding Bhaalspawn blood and forces you to drink it or else you'd be stuck unable to compelete the main quest.

You awaken and you're now one with the force, you fight through four different locations with each their own individual themes fighting the now-Werewolf Sith Empire. After you complete each location, you're killed by the armored man from earlier that is actually Master Li. You now wake up in the Fade and team up with Commander Shepard in an effort to escape the Cowled Wizards attempting to arrest you for the unauthorized use of biotics.

Through the use of technology of an ancient civilization in the Fade, you escape due to the Lazarus Project and arrive to the Citadel in time to notice that the Sith are killing the Grey Wardens, you fight through the Sith Werewolves and arrive to the top of the Ebon Hawke to find Master Li who for some reason is missing his jaw. He threatens to kill you and you fight to the death.

As Master Li dies, you're given the choice of either sleeping with Morrigan or keeping the collector base. The epilogue card shows up and says that you disappeared the next day to new adventures.. for another time.

Hah!  Brilliant!  This is the best Bioware game ever.

Don't forget occasional references to space hamsters and "venturing forth".

[Shepard Lives]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...


[*]You hail from humble origins: Played straight.  Hawke comes from the quiet, sleepy village of Lothering.

I believe that has yet to be confirmed. It has only been stated that he lived there for a while; we have no idea how long.

I hope they don't answer that question.

Same here.

It could be that they give you the conversation to answer that question in dialog, kind of like how dialog in KOTOR 2 established Revan's fate.

Yeah, I hope Hawke gets a degree of backstory customization, a la Shepard at least.

[Saibh]

The attack leaves you alone with two companions, of magical and partial prowess: Loosely fits with Bethany.

Assuming Bethany isn't immediately kidnapped or killed.



I still think its funny how angrily some people react to this chart.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Saibh wrote...

The attack leaves you alone with two companions, of magical and partial prowess: Loosely fits with Bethany.

Assuming Bethany isn't immediately kidnapped or killed.

I still think its funny how angrily some people react to this chart.

Including BioWare themselves, if TVTropes is to be believed   Meh.  What differentiates a BioWare RPG to me is not the lack of tropes, but how well and convincingly they're implemented.  Yeah, I've done the humble origins thing a frillion times, but dammit I cared about Rica in the Dwarf Commoner origin, and I wanted to flay Vaughn alive with centipedes in the City Elf origin.  

[Khayness]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Hawke is a (wo)man who was being trained by Master Li for the past few years, on a stroll through a park an armored man shows up and kills the Master Li as you run away (witnesses blame you were running away from the Blight). You then find yourself in a town called Taris where the Grey Wardens are preparing to free the town from the Sith Empire, Death's Hand shows up and gives you a cup holding Bhaalspawn blood and forces you to drink it or else you'd be stuck unable to compelete the main quest.

You awaken and you're now one with the force, you fight through four different locations with each their own individual themes fighting the now-Werewolf Sith Empire. After you complete each location, you're killed by the armored man from earlier that is actually Master Li. You now wake up in the Fade and team up with Commander Shepard in an effort to escape the Cowled Wizards attempting to arrest you for the unauthorized use of biotics.

Through the use of technology of an ancient civilization in the Fade, you escape due to the Lazarus Project and arrive to the Citadel in time to notice that the Sith are killing the Grey Wardens, you fight through the Sith Werewolves and arrive to the top of the Ebon Hawke to find Master Li who for some reason is missing his jaw. He threatens to kill you and you fight to the death.

As Master Li dies, you're given the choice of either sleeping with Morrigan or keeping the collector base. The epilogue card shows up and says that you disappeared the next day to new adventures.. for another time.

I find the lack of Wailing Death disturbing

[Dave of Canada]

Khayness wrote...

I find the lack of Wailing Death disturbing

HEY!

We need to keep material for the sequel.

[Khayness]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Khayness wrote...

I find the lack of Wailing Death disturbing

HEY!

We need to keep material for the sequel.

Ah I see!
Sorry for spoilering

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

The whole bildungsroman approach in level-based systems account for a lot of the cliche by itself.

[WingsandRings]

I just need a classic Bioware twist. I felt like DA:O didn't really have enough of one (Loghain? Death of a Warden/God-baby?) and I NEED my Bioware twist. I have a fever, and the only cure is MORE BIOWARE TWIST!

Modifié par WingsandRings, 29 juillet 2010 - 11:11 .

[Dave of Canada]

WingsandRings wrote...

I just need a classic Bioware twist. I felt like DA:O didn't really have enough of one (Loghain? Death of a Warden/God-baby?) and I NEED my Bioware twist. I have a fever, and the only cure is BIOWARE TWIST!

Hawke is Shepard the Glorious Stategist, former emperor of the Sith Werewolves. He was constructing a Reaper out of Qunari before he found out that he was actually a Bhaalspawn, making him lose his mind and create a new personality for himself by touching Duncan's beard.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 29 juillet 2010 - 11:11 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Dave of Canada wrote...

WingsandRings wrote...

I just need a classic Bioware twist. I felt like DA:O didn't really have enough of one (Loghain? Death of a Warden/God-baby?) and I NEED my Bioware twist. I have a fever, and the only cure is BIOWARE TWIST!

Hawke is Shepard the Glorious Stategist, former emperor of the Sith Werewolves. He was constructing a Reaper out of Qunari before he found out that he was actually a Bhaalspawn, making him lose his mind and create a new personality for himself by touching Duncan's beard.

You, ser, are win.

I've gotten to the point where I can see most major twists coming, or at least have an inkling.  The only twist that's completely thrown me recently was when I read Atonement a few years ago.

[Saibh]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Saibh wrote...

The attack leaves you alone with two companions, of magical and partial prowess: Loosely fits with Bethany.

Assuming Bethany isn't immediately kidnapped or killed.

I still think its funny how angrily some people react to this chart.

Including BioWare themselves, if TVTropes is to be believed   Meh.  What differentiates a BioWare RPG to me is not the lack of tropes, but how well and convincingly they're implemented.  Yeah, I've done the humble origins thing a frillion times, but dammit I cared about Rica in the Dwarf Commoner origin, and I wanted to flay Vaughn alive with centipedes in the City Elf origin.  

One of the devs did here. I kinda feel bad for the guy because he didn't get that is was an affectionate joke and took it way seriously, and it took a few posts for him to realize it wasn't meant to be cruel or mocking and people sort of exploded on him.

I can't really call any Origin my favorite...I think I would have called Dwarf Noble (even though I'm not a big fan of dwarves) my favorite, but I despise having to hold the Idiot Ball to make the plot work. Coming from humble origins or aristocratic origins never really bother me--it always seems that, in the end, they don't seem to make a difference from each other in RPGs. If you're family is important it's because they betrayed you or died or got kidnapped.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Saibh wrote...

One of the devs did here. I kinda feel bad for the guy because he didn't get that is was an affectionate joke and took it way seriously, and it took a few posts for him to realize it wasn't meant to be cruel or mocking and people sort of exploded on him.

I can't really call any Origin my favorite...I think I would have called Dwarf Noble (even though I'm not a big fan of dwarves) my favorite, but I despise having to hold the Idiot Ball to make the plot work. Coming from humble origins or aristocratic origins never really bother me--it always seems that, in the end, they don't seem to make a difference from each other in RPGs. If you're family is important it's because they betrayed you or died or got kidnapped.

Oh Patrick Weekes, I'll always adore you for giving us Garrus   Don't be sad!

On the origins: it's sad but true that after a certain point, the origins make no difference to the core plot.  Otherwise, how would BioWare tie all those origins together?  They'd have to make six unique games, and that would be far too much work.  I'm surprised the origins played as much of a role as they did (human noble's relationships, mage in the Broken Circle, etc.)

And yeah, I'd rather not have the idiot ball glued to my rear this time.  Can I please play a more genre-savvy character, and have the opportunity to show my genre-savvy?  PLEASE?

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 29 juillet 2010 - 11:40 .

[Saibh]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Saibh wrote...

One of the devs did here. I kinda feel bad for the guy because he didn't get that is was an affectionate joke and took it way seriously, and it took a few posts for him to realize it wasn't meant to be cruel or mocking and people sort of exploded on him.

I can't really call any Origin my favorite...I think I would have called Dwarf Noble (even though I'm not a big fan of dwarves) my favorite, but I despise having to hold the Idiot Ball to make the plot work. Coming from humble origins or aristocratic origins never really bother me--it always seems that, in the end, they don't seem to make a difference from each other in RPGs. If you're family is important it's because they betrayed you or died or got kidnapped.

Oh Patrick Weekes, I'll always adore you for giving us Garrus   Don't be sad!

On the origins: it's sad but true that after a certain point, the origins make no difference to the core plot.  Otherwise, how would BioWare tie all those origins together?  They'd have to make six unique games, and that would be far too much work.  I'm surprised the origins played as much of a role as they did (human noble's relationships, mage in the Broken Circle, etc.)

And yeah, I'd rather not have the idiot ball glued to my rear this time.  Can I please play a more genre-savvy character, and have the opportunity to show my genre-savvy?  PLEASE?

I always hate that writers assume that because  a character is nice and friendly we aren't immediately suspicious of him. You know the Christ figures, so self-sacrificing? I'm not sure if this is an actual trope or not, but I think of those charismatic evil dudes as Anti-Christ figures. Because they're always just so nice, and so trustworthy, and just plain evil. It's one thing for a character to behave like Wynne and have us not be suspicious. But, please, Bhelen?

Honestly, after the Dwarf Noble Origin, his character just sort of goes down the drain. You'd think for a guy who spent months, or even years, planning this gigantic Xenatos Gambit, he'd figure that being just a teensy bit nicer to the Warden might be helpful. Or at least not hiring total a-holes as your seconds.