63 réponses à ce sujet

[Sable Rhapsody]

Saibh wrote...

I always hate that writers assume that because  a character is nice and friendly we aren't immediately suspicious of him. You know the Christ figures, so self-sacrificing? I'm not sure if this is an actual trope or not, but I think of those charismatic evil dudes as Anti-Christ figures. Because they're always just so nice, and so trustworthy, and just plain evil. It's one thing for a character to behave like Wynne and have us not be suspicious. But, please, Bhelen?

Honestly, after the Dwarf Noble Origin, his character just sort of goes down the drain. You'd think for a guy who spent months, or even years, planning this gigantic Xenatos Gambit, he'd figure that being just a teensy bit nicer to the Warden might be helpful. Or at least not hiring total a-holes as your seconds.

*snicker* I think it's mostly just that a lot gamers, especially RPG and tabletop gamers, are three things.

• Excessively paranoid
• Too genre-savvy for their own good
• Trigger (or sword or spell) happy

I mean, if I described the plot of the dwarf noble origin to my mother who isn't a fiction person, she'd be flabbergasted that Bhelen betrayed you.  Bless her innocent soul  

[Saibh]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Saibh wrote...

I always hate that writers assume that because  a character is nice and friendly we aren't immediately suspicious of him. You know the Christ figures, so self-sacrificing? I'm not sure if this is an actual trope or not, but I think of those charismatic evil dudes as Anti-Christ figures. Because they're always just so nice, and so trustworthy, and just plain evil. It's one thing for a character to behave like Wynne and have us not be suspicious. But, please, Bhelen?

Honestly, after the Dwarf Noble Origin, his character just sort of goes down the drain. You'd think for a guy who spent months, or even years, planning this gigantic Xenatos Gambit, he'd figure that being just a teensy bit nicer to the Warden might be helpful. Or at least not hiring total a-holes as your seconds.

*snicker* I think it's mostly just that a lot gamers, especially RPG and tabletop gamers, are three things.

• Excessively paranoid
• Too genre-savvy for their own good
• Trigger (or sword or spell) happy

I mean, if I described the plot of the dwarf noble origin to my mother who isn't a fiction person, she'd be flabbergasted that Bhelen betrayed you.  Bless her innocent soul  

The mere idea that you can stay genre-innocent in this day and age...Should I be disgusted or envious?

[Bryy_Miller]

Screw BioWare Tropes.



BioWare Fan Tropes.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Screw BioWare Tropes.

BioWare Fan Tropes.

Fan Dumb.  Or more recently, Hatedom for those declaring the end of the world with DA2.  Yep...that's us! 

[Lomopingseph]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Hawke is a (wo)man who was being trained by Master Li for the past few years, on a stroll through a park an armored man shows up and kills the Master Li as you run away (witnesses blame you were running away from the Blight). You then find yourself in a town called Taris where the Grey Wardens are preparing to free the town from the Sith Empire, Death's Hand shows up and gives you a cup holding Bhaalspawn blood and forces you to drink it or else you'd be stuck unable to compelete the main quest.

You awaken and you're now one with the force, you fight through four different locations with each their own individual themes fighting the now-Werewolf Sith Empire. After you complete each location, you're killed by the armored man from earlier that is actually Master Li. You now wake up in the Fade and team up with Commander Shepard in an effort to escape the Cowled Wizards attempting to arrest you for the unauthorized use of biotics.

Through the use of technology of an ancient civilization in the Fade, you escape due to the Lazarus Project and arrive to the Citadel in time to notice that the Sith are killing the Grey Wardens, you fight through the Sith Werewolves and arrive to the top of the Ebon Hawke to find Master Li who for some reason is missing his jaw. He threatens to kill you and you fight to the death.

As Master Li dies, you're given the choice of either sleeping with Morrigan or keeping the collector base. The epilogue card shows up and says that you disappeared the next day to new adventures.. for another time.

You are amazing.

[Faust1979]

I'm tired of Bioware sticking to the same forumula in all their games. I hope this one tries to do something different

[Bryy_Miller]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
Fan Dumb.

Not to be confused with Extreme Fan Dumb, which even the most hardcore Troll will not mess with. These include, but are not limited to, The Perceived Reality Brigade, Get Your Developers Out Of My Video Game, or New Ways to Screw Bethany.

Hatedom

An odd but growing phenomenon that happens when a group of Trolls forget that they are Trolls.

[Saibh]

Faust1979 wrote...

I'm tired of Bioware sticking to the same forumula in all their games. I hope this one tries to do something different

Really? Because while some things always remain the same for video game purposes, the stories told between ME and DAO are vastly different. Sure, you have to save the galaxy/world--but lots of games are like that. You have a goal you need to complete, and this is one of the most encompassing.

Honestly, they feel different to me. They have some of the same elements, but I don't feel like I'm playing Neverwinter Nights: China Edition with Jade Empire, or Mass Effect: Fantasy Edition with DAO. Or even KotOR: Spectre-not-Jedi Edition.

[Mirander]

Dave of Canada wrote...
*snippage of epic content*

Sith. Werewolves...

BIOWARE, THIS *MUST* HAPPEN.

[Faust1979]

I would like a plot with various bad guys stabbing each other in the back and plotting against each other during some kind of war and different people you can side with but you're not sure who the bad guy is or the good guy they are all shades of grey

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

On the origins: it's sad but true that after a certain point, the origins make no difference to the core plot. 

That depends entirely on what you think the core plot is.

Yes, if the core plot is about the Blight and Loghain, then the origins make little difference.

If, however, the core plot is about the Warden and his development as a hero, the origins are hugely important.

[Faust1979]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

On the origins: it's sad but true that after a certain point, the origins make no difference to the core plot. 

That depends entirely on what you think the core plot is.

Yes, if the core plot is about the Blight and Loghain, then the origins make little difference.

If, however, the core plot is about the Warden and his development as a hero, the origins are hugely important.

yeah but after the origins no matter what character you pick you say the same things it kinda makes you feel like no matter what you just play pretty much the same character

[Sylvius the Mad]

Faust1979 wrote...

yeah but after the origins no matter what character you pick you say the same things it kinda makes you feel like no matter what you just play pretty much the same character

I don't get that at all.  Why are you saying those things?  How do you feel about the behavior of the characters around you?

No matter what your character is like, the companions are always written the same way, but different charactrs will have different feelings toward them.  For example, I played a male human mage who didn't like Sten.  He found him irritating and impenetrable.  But I had a female dwarf warrior who treated him like he was her little brother (and the relationship worked just like that).  And with my male city elf rogue, Sten was pretty much in  charge of the party.  Sten made all the decisions and the PC simply following his lead.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

2. Too genre-savvy for their own good

I'm not genre-savvy at all when I'm roleplaying.  I immerce myself deeply into my character so I'm viewing everything in the game as he would see it.  His perception is always paramount.

If ever the game's design assumes genre-savvy on my part, it flies completely over my head (because my head isn't paying attention, and my character's head doesn't know it's in a game).

[Saibh]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

2. Too genre-savvy for their own good

I'm not genre-savvy at all when I'm roleplaying.  I immerce myself deeply into my character so I'm viewing everything in the game as he would see it.  His perception is always paramount.

If ever the game's design assumes genre-savvy on my part, it flies completely over my head (because my head isn't paying attention, and my character's head doesn't know it's in a game).

If I do that, I feel like I'm holding the Idiot Ball. I know someone is bad, how can I ignore that? Who's to say my character's talent of perception isn't going to realize the same thing? 

No realizing your mentor was evil (hello, Master Li) I can excuse. Not having the slightest suspicion of Bhelen or having any sense of self-preservation I cannot. Not being able to push Howe on his slips from the delay being his fault then to blaming it on your father, to his extremely obvious guilty reaction of you being nice to him is just plain stupid. You can be a suspicious person, I should think.

[AllThatJazz]

Saibh wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

2. Too genre-savvy for their own good

I'm not genre-savvy at all when I'm roleplaying.  I immerce myself deeply into my character so I'm viewing everything in the game as he would see it.  His perception is always paramount.

If ever the game's design assumes genre-savvy on my part, it flies completely over my head (because my head isn't paying attention, and my character's head doesn't know it's in a game).

If I do that, I feel like I'm holding the Idiot Ball. I know someone is bad, how can I ignore that? Who's to say my character's talent of perception isn't going to realize the same thing? 

No realizing your mentor was evil (hello, Master Li) I can excuse. Not having the slightest suspicion of Bhelen or having any sense of self-preservation I cannot. Not being able to push Howe on his slips from the delay being his fault then to blaming it on your father, to his extremely obvious guilty reaction of you being nice to him is just plain stupid. You can be a suspicious person, I should think.

Heh, yes I remember screaming at the screen 'Howe is a bastard, even if I didn't already know he would be cos he's voiced by Tim Curry! Kill him! KILL HIM NOW!',  as my supposedly high-cunning Cousland wished him luck and talked about his son  A dialogue option that expressed suspicion would have been appreciated. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Saibh wrote...

I know someone is bad, how can I ignore that? Who's to say my character's talent of perception isn't going to realize the same thing?

Stop paying attention to what you know.  Compartmentalise and let only your character's consciousness direct your actions.

That's immersion.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Saibh wrote...

I know someone is bad, how can I ignore that? Who's to say my character's talent of perception isn't going to realize the same thing?

Stop paying attention to what you know.  Compartmentalise and let only your character's consciousness direct your actions.

That's immersion.

I see your point, and I know the ability to split player and character knowledge is one that makes roleplaying that much more fun.  But there are some circumstances in which the plot is either too obvious or too stupid for words, and it's really hard to resist banging your head against the screen and wishing you could just kill everyone.

And what if you were trying to play a more intelligent, manipulative, genre-savvy character?  You could never play someone like that in the Cousland or Dwarf Noble origin, and if you try to without having had the origin spoiled for you, it actually kills immersion.

[Saibh]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Saibh wrote...

I know someone is bad, how can I ignore that? Who's to say my character's talent of perception isn't going to realize the same thing?

Stop paying attention to what you know.  Compartmentalise and let only your character's consciousness direct your actions.

That's immersion.

An Idiot Ball is the difference between me being able to accept what I know, with what my character should know. There's no reason for Radiant Jen Zi to suspect Master Li, so she doesn't. I forgive her for not breaking that stupid color-changing lion over his head. But not being able to question Bhelen? Not being able to go to your father and raise your suspicions? That's an Idiot Ball.

Modifié par Saibh, 31 juillet 2010 - 04:08 .

[guru7892]

those tropes arn't exactly fair. It more is conforming with the mono-myth model than an actual bioware trope. What I mean is other stories fit that structure as well.



a better example of a bioware trope is the inclusion of a 'spooky' area that often deals with a controlling monster and possibly canibalism, often with a 'twisted mother' type figure (someone at bioware has mommy issues). we see this in the Thorain in ME, the cannibal inn in JE, and the dark-spawn 'broodmother'. In nwn you also kinda see this with the yuanti and her undead army, but its kinda a stretch.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

And what if you were trying to play a more intelligent, manipulative, genre-savvy character?  You could never play someone like that in the Cousland or Dwarf Noble origin, and if you try to without having had the origin spoiled for you, it actually kills immersion.

Is it possible for a character to be genre-savvy without breaking the fourth wall?  To the character, he's not part of a genre - he's just in the world.

[Saibh]

guru7892 wrote...

those tropes arn't exactly fair. It more is conforming with the mono-myth model than an actual bioware trope. What I mean is other stories fit that structure as well.

a better example of a bioware trope is the inclusion of a 'spooky' area that often deals with a controlling monster and possibly canibalism, often with a 'twisted mother' type figure (someone at bioware has mommy issues). we see this in the Thorain in ME, the cannibal inn in JE, and the dark-spawn 'broodmother'. In nwn you also kinda see this with the yuanti and her undead army, but its kinda a stretch.

But you know, they are accurate. It's a light hearted joke made by people who like the games. As TVTropes will tell you Tropes Are Not Bad. Everything must be trope-worthy. It's impossible to avoid it. It's not judging the series at all, unlike this chart, which besides being sort of inaccurate and condescending, makes way too many generalizations.

And I'd say someone at BioWare has daddy issues certainly, considering the overflowing amount of characters with them. I mean, every single party member in ME1 has them--with the possible exception of Ashley, since her dad was good to her. Still, her life was sort of made crappy by her parentage.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

And
what if you were trying to play a more intelligent, manipulative,
genre-savvy character?  You could never play someone like that in the
Cousland or Dwarf Noble origin, and if you try to without having had the
origin spoiled for you, it actually kills immersion.

Is it
possible for a character to be genre-savvy without breaking the fourth
wall?  To the character, he's not part of a genre - he's just in the
world.

Mmm...what I'm calling "genre savvy" is
more or less just a cunning or clever character, even though that's not
really the definition. Again, I bring up the Bhelen example. You had to
act like a plain idiot for that plot to work out.

Modifié par Saibh, 31 juillet 2010 - 06:40 .

[Saibh]

double post

Modifié par Saibh, 31 juillet 2010 - 06:40 .

[Ashaman X]

My adventure with BioWare games started with NWN1, and I own everything since with the exception of Jade Empire. While I have noticed that the start of the stories generally are the same, it feels different enough in every game that I don't care. The story usually grabs me in the first few minutes and doesn't let go. ME and DA feel totally different to me, despite sharing the same sort of minor plot elements.



I think that as BioWare grows as a studio in terms of manpower and writing, new ideas are coming in and helping them to branch out the plot, twists and general characters, all while still holding you in addiction as a player.



I think every game company eventually hits a brick wall in terms of what to do next. BioWare isn't near there yet I think, and their future stories will continue to impress.

[Hyper Cutter]

Saibh wrote...

Honestly, after the Dwarf Noble Origin, his character just sort of goes down the drain. You'd think for a guy who spent months, or even years, planning this gigantic Xenatos Gambit, he'd figure that being just a teensy bit nicer to the Warden might be helpful. Or at least not hiring total a-holes as your seconds.

If you're a Dwarf Commoner, he's actually pretty nice to you.