63 réponses à ce sujet

[Saibh]

Hyper Cutter wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Honestly, after the Dwarf Noble Origin, his character just sort of goes down the drain. You'd think for a guy who spent months, or even years, planning this gigantic Xenatos Gambit, he'd figure that being just a teensy bit nicer to the Warden might be helpful. Or at least not hiring total a-holes as your seconds.

If you're a Dwarf Commoner, he's actually pretty nice to you.

As I recall, he's only nice to you if you're really nice to him, and his second is a dick no matter what. God, I hate that guy.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ashaman X wrote...

My adventure with BioWare games started with NWN1, and I own everything since with the exception of Jade Empire. While I have noticed that the start of the stories generally are the same, it feels different enough in every game that I don't care. The story usually grabs me in the first few minutes and doesn't let go. ME and DA feel totally different to me, despite sharing the same sort of minor plot elements.

BioWare games have lots of common tropes--more than was pointed out on the chart.  The BioWare Twist (patent pending), the slavery sidequest, the Big Bad, the "sleep with me before we all die" (averted in a few games), and many others.  There are a lot of plot elements and character types recycled.  When it comes to the use of stock tropes, BioWare does it as often as any game developer.

But I'd like to point out your word choice here.  You said the games feel different.  That's where BioWare shines--trope implementation.  There's a lot of recycled stuff, but they have a drastically different FEEL.  An analogy would be making cookies.  They're all cookies, with the same basic ingredients, but snickerdoodles have a different feel to them than, say, Russian Tea Cookies 

They can take the same essential plot element--your home being destroyed--in BG, Jade Empire, NWN, and some iterations of ME's Shepard backstory, and make them all feel completely different.  I never notice the tropes while I'm playing, and I certainly don't pick them apart like I do now.  What I notice is an immersive world, fun characters, and compelling lore that piques my interest.  It's only in hindsight that I go back and pick through the plot elements.

[captain.subtle]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Saibh wrote...

The attack leaves you alone with two companions, of magical and partial prowess: Loosely fits with Bethany.

Assuming Bethany isn't immediately kidnapped or killed.

I still think its funny how angrily some people react to this chart.

Including BioWare themselves, if TVTropes is to be believed   Meh.  What differentiates a BioWare RPG to me is not the lack of tropes, but how well and convincingly they're implemented.  Yeah, I've done the humble origins thing a frillion times, but dammit I cared about Rica in the Dwarf Commoner origin, and I wanted to flay Vaughn alive with centipedes in the City Elf origin.  

Oh Man! That TVTrope website has been one nerdy Headquarters....

Modifié par captain.subtle, 31 juillet 2010 - 08:44 .

[Tinxa]

I'd rather be suspicious of an NPC as a player and accept that my PC only gets the nice conversation options than be given the option to warn others only to get "Oh don't be silly" response from NPCs being warned.

I hated that in NWN the fake Helm priest was even openly hostile to the PC with his fake helmites spreading the plague and when you tried to talk to Aribeth or her boyfriend you only got "Oh he's a nice guy he just seems a little gruff"

[KLUME777]

stevej713 wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
If anything, looking at the chart, DA:O stands out as the oddball.

If it wasn't for the 20-45 minute origins, DAO would fit perfectly into it.

I do think that the "ancient civilization" thing is beginning to show in DA2, with Kirkwall being a once-powerful city for the Imperium.

What the hell are you talking about?! 20 -45 mins! they take at least 2-4 hrs, 3 normally. I did 5hrs on the Mage origin, reading the codexes.

The shortest you can possibly do is an hour if you just skip through all conversations and everything else, which doesnt count cos your not really playing it.

[Maverick827]

I honestly cannot begin to fathom more than an hour per origin. I think I can get the Human Noble origin down in 20 minutes by now I've done it so much.

[stormrain]

Faust1979 wrote...

I would like a plot with various bad guys stabbing each other in the back and plotting against each other during some kind of war and different people you can side with but you're not sure who the bad guy is or the good guy they are all shades of grey

So a Thrity Xanatos Pileup? A dangerous gambit, my friend. If executed poorly it quickly becomes a load of crap. But I think Bioware could pull it off.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Captain Uccisore wrote...

Faust1979 wrote...

I would like a plot with various bad guys stabbing each other in the back and plotting against each other during some kind of war and different people you can side with but you're not sure who the bad guy is or the good guy they are all shades of grey

So a Thrity Xanatos Pileup? A dangerous gambit, my friend. If executed poorly it quickly becomes a load of crap. But I think Bioware could pull it off.

It could work if you don't sucker punch the player.  One of the things I hate most as a player, in both tabletop and CRPGs, is not being given enough information to make an educated choice.  I know that's "realistic," but this is a GAME.  Not giving me clues, then punishing me for making an "incorrect" choice is just d-baggery in its finest form.  I thought Heavy Rain did a decent job of this; yes, you had some really brutal choices, but if the player was paying attention and being smart, it wasn't exactly hard to work out what was necessary and what was unnecessary.  

It'll be fun and fascinating if BioWare gives the player enough clues to work some things out and make a relatively educated decision, but there's still the capacity to separate PLAYER and CHARACTER knowledge.  The framed narrative could work to their advantage here.

[Blessed Silence]

Pardon me for being thick headed, but what is a trope exactly?

[stormrain]

Blessed Silence wrote...

Pardon me for being thick headed, but what is a trope exactly?

"A Trope is a convention. It can be a plot trick, a setup, a narrative structure, a character type, a linguistic idiom... It's like porn; you know it when you see it."

Modifié par Captain Uccisore, 01 août 2010 - 04:30 .

[Saibh]

Captain Uccisore wrote...

Blessed Silence wrote...

Pardon me for being thick headed, but what is a trope exactly?

"A Trope is a convention. It can be a plot trick, a setup, a narrative structure, a character type, a linguistic idiom... It's like porn; you know it when you see it."

Indeed. We probably wouldn't use the word if not for TVTropes, a black hole of a website. My suggestion is to click the link given, type in your favorite game, TV Show, movie, whatever, and then read. You'll never escape the tabs.

[stormrain]

Indeed again. Tropes Will Ruin Your Life. Or not. You know, depending on how you see it.

Best illistrated here: "It's like rickrolling, but you're stuck all day."

Modifié par Captain Uccisore, 01 août 2010 - 06:37 .

[aries1001]

The stories, we tell basically are the same. I think, that there maybe on 8-10 true original stories in the world. However, the difference is they way they're being told. And tropes, or clichées, are very good to have, especially when you're writing for a video game, a novel or a short story, or tv, or for the movies. They help you to organize and structure the narrative as well as help you with creating the characters.



And yes, it is the way they've been implemented (done) in Bioware's games, really make them shine.

The broodmother is Bioware's take on 'the bad mother' (or the mother as a witch), and let's not forget about Flemeth, too.



On another note, I talked to Leliana in camp about shoes (after I took her to Denerim), and she commented on one of my comments by saying something like 'men..and then something about shoes.'. And I thought to myself, I didn't say this because I play as male Dalish Elf, I said this because I'm a Dalish elv, who never before has left my clan and think that shoes should be practical and used for to keep feet warm'. This is an example of a trope done right.