23 réponses à ce sujet

[Sneelonz]

Which is the "real" creator of Thedas? Is it the Maker or the Old Gods? How are they involved in the creation of a blight? If I understand correctly, the mages of Tevinter Imperium somehow broke into the Golden City, tainting it with their sin, creating the darkspawn. If this is true, then why do they search for the Old Gods? 

I would creatly appreciate it if someone explained these things to me... I'm utterly confused.
I've played through DAO, and don't care to play DAO:A so don't worry about spoiling anything for me. On the other hand, I'm still reading the Calling, so don't spoil anything in there. I barely even started it.

[Sneelonz]

...and who are the "Old Gods" anyway??

[Dave of Canada]

Awakening spoilers would spoil The Calling, though... and it's never mentioned about anything, it's more of an entire faith concept rather than proven religion like most fantasy settings go for. There's no proof that the Maker exists or if he's involved with the Darkspawn / Old Gods.

[Dave of Canada]

Old Gods were dragons that were worshiped by the Tevinter Imperium, the Chantry says that they are bad and stuff but nothing is really known with their connection - although the Chantry does say that the Maker was the one who sealed them underground.



Each dragon represents something different (DA:O's archdemon was the Old God of Beauty) and they call out a siren song to lure in all Darkspawn who in turn corrupt them with their taint and turn them into Archdemons.



There was seven known Old Gods, only two remain.

[Kimarous]

History is very shrouded by what the Chantry says. Even in Duncan's opening monologue, he says "The Chantry teaches us". As far as I am concerned, they've simply filled in a lot of the details on their own.

Think about it. The initial Blight, regardless of cause, utterly devastated Thedas, particularly the Tevinter Imperium. It was a time of great chaos wherein the people most likely to know what was going on probably got killed.

For example, there's the matter of the Golden City. Well, we know that the Black City exists, apparently serving as some focal point in the Fade. We don't know for sure, however, if the Black City was ever Golden. I mean, who do we have to be sure of this little fact? Elven lore is mostly lost and I'm pretty sure the Harrowing didn't exist pre-Chantry. So here we have the Chantry claiming something that they can't know for sure and the people who probably could refute it were the people who they had been stamping out.

The Old Gods? Well, we know that the Imperium used to worship them, that they are underground, and that the darkspawn seek them out. That's... pretty much all the concrete details we have about them. One might assume "oh, well if the darkspawn seek out the Old Gods, then it makes sense that they used to be the dragon-worshipping magisters of the Imperium". Not neccessarily. Maybe the Old Gods just happen to have some weird darkspawn attraction frequency or something. We cannot say for sure.

As for the darkspawn themselves... again, the details are muddy. Apparently the magisters tried to access the city in the Fade (according to the Chantry) and then all hell broke lose. Maybe it is as the Chantry, Maker casting them back as monsters and whatnot. Maybe the Black City was some kind of prison for the darkspawn, the Imperium accidently breaking them free? Maybe the Black City corrupted the mages, rather than the reverse? How do we even know the Imperium even went to the Black City?

Then there's the whole Maker thing. Again, all we have for proof is the word of a barbarian Joan of Arc, the church she inspired, and her magical ashes that Oghren theorizes might just have some unique lyrium radiation. Also, despite claims that the spirits of the Fade were the Maker's first children, a demon in the sidequest "Something Wicked" angrily mocks a templar's reference of the Maker, claiming that "there is no Maker". Whether this is some first-hand truthful account or simply a spiteful retort is unknown, coming from a demon and whatnot.

On a final note, I have yet to see any attempted explanation for the dwarven shades in the Deep Roads...

Modifié par Kimarous, 30 juillet 2010 - 06:51 .

[Vaeliorin]

filaminstrel wrote...

Kimarous wrote...
On a final note, I have yet to see any attempted explanation for the dwarven shades in the Deep Roads...

Hm, I never really thought about them, but they could lend credence to the theory that lyrium filling the walls of the temple of Andraste has something to do with the presence of the Guardian and the other spirits in there.

Sighrun says something like "Is this what they mean when they talk about spirits joining the stone?" when you first encounter them.  It might have something to do with Lyrium, it might have something to do with the dwarven religion (maybe the do have some actual connection with the stone) or it could be something else entirely.

Don't you love ambiguity?

[Koffeegirl]

Great post Kimarous. That really does explain all we know so far.....also in Awakening (this won't spoil the Calling) a good Fade spirit says that Fade spirits don't know if there is a Maker and that the demons don't really care if there is one or not

[Rapidiul]

I think the old gods were made by the Maker to help him manage the fade, but then they weren't doing their "job",so the Maker put them in thedas' underground, and let the humans kill them. Just my opinion though.

Modifié par Rapidiul, 30 juillet 2010 - 08:04 .

[Face of Evil]

As it is told by the Chantry:

The Maker created the spirits and the Fade. He also created the Golden City as their realm. They weren't up to snuff, so he created mortals and the physical world.
The mortal races go about their business until eventually the Tevinter Imperium, the world's first and greatest human empire, is formed. They worship the Old Gods, seven ancient High Dragons of unspeakable power that are said to have taught the Magister Lords blood magic.
The Maker imprisons these Old Gods in the earth. They supposedly impart the knowledge to the Magister Lords on how to enter the Golden City.
It is generally-accepted historical fact that the Magister Lords did physically enter the Fade, as opposed to entering in dreams. There, they entered the Golden City and corrupted it with their presence.
Afterwards, the Maker flung them back to earth and cursed them so they became the first darkspawn. They sought out one of their Old Gods and corrupted him into an archdemon.
The First Blight began and largely decimated the Tevinter Imperium. Sensing the Imperium's weakness, Andraste and Maferath began their rebellion and managed to overthrow the Imperium, though Andraste was burned at the stake before she could see its downfall.

While it may be that some of the lore is inaccurate — there's obviously no way of knowing what happened in the Golden City or even if the Magister Lords entered it — keep in mind that it's the best explanation anyone has for the creation of the darkspawn or their relationship to the Old Gods. From the dwarves' perspective, they just "showed up" one century, and elven civilization had been crushed by the Tevinter Imperium by the time the darkspawn appeared. The Chantry's version might as well be the right one, since no one has any better ideas.

My own "pet theory," if you're interested, is that the Chantry is largely correct. The Magister Lords did enter the Golden City at the urging of the Old Gods and were corrupted into darkspawn. And the Maker actually did cast the Old Gods down into the earth.

However, the Old Gods purposefully call to the darkspawn in order to be corrupted into archdemons, allowing them to escape their stony prison and have a shot at conquering the world.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 30 juillet 2010 - 07:42 .

[captain.subtle]

filaminstrel wrote...

Hm, I never really thought about them, but they could lend credence to the theory that lyrium filling the walls of the temple of Andraste has something to do with the presence of the Guardian and the other spirits in there.

And what about the temple spirits talk and know things from your/their past?

[GodWood]

captain.subtle wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

Hm, I never really thought about them, but they could lend credence to the theory that lyrium filling the walls of the temple of Andraste has something to do with the presence of the Guardian and the other spirits in there.

And what about the temple spirits talk and know things from your/their past?

Magic!

[joriandrake]

Rapidiul wrote...

I think the old gods were made by the Maker to help him manage the fade, but then thay weren't doing their "job",so the Maker put them in thedas' underground, and let the humans kill them. Just my opinion though.

They could have been something like Archangels

[Face of Evil]

The point is that it's all uncertain. The lyrium is in the Mountain where Andraste's ashes are kept to offer an alternate theory as to what's causing all the weirdness around the Urn. You can decide for yourelf if it's the lyrium doing all this or whether it's the Maker.

[captain.subtle]

Face of Evil wrote...

The point is that it's all uncertain. The lyrium is in the Mountain where Andraste's ashes are kept to offer an alternate theory as to what's causing all the weirdness around the Urn. You can decide for yourelf if it's the lyrium doing all this or whether it's the Maker.

Lyrium would not cause a specific effect based around a particular legend. Would it? You would expect random things instead.... Unless.

a) Someone wanted this to happen in a particular way.
Andraste's ashes were powerful early on (which they could have been if Havard the Aegis (is the spelling correct?) was not lying.

Modifié par captain.subtle, 30 juillet 2010 - 08:05 .

[joriandrake]

Face of Evil wrote...

The point is that it's all uncertain. The lyrium is in the Mountain where Andraste's ashes are kept to offer an alternate theory as to what's causing all the weirdness around the Urn. You can decide for yourelf if it's the lyrium doing all this or whether it's the Maker.

When we got to the ashes on the 4th playthrough I wanted really bad to do this:

www.youtube.com/watch


(note: this was on my 4th game where I tried to pick all the most funny options in dialogue and ections)

Modifié par joriandrake, 30 juillet 2010 - 08:12 .

[Shepard Lives]

captain.subtle wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

Hm, I never really thought about them, but they could lend credence to the theory that lyrium filling the walls of the temple of Andraste has something to do with the presence of the Guardian and the other spirits in there.

And what about the temple spirits talk and know things from your/their past?

I personally think the spirits are just spawned from the Warden's mind. They are lyrium-induced allucinations. 'Tis true that that would not explain how  the Guardian also knows things from your companions' past, though... unless you're willing to think that the narrative switched to each companion's POV for a minute.

Orrrrr, the spirits and the Guardian are thralls of a powerful spirit, who may or may not be "the Maker", that inhabits the mountain. Which I suppose would make the mountain an XXL tear in the Veil (this is obviously connected to the huge vein of lyrium). Maybe the temple was built there specifically for that reason.

Or the spirits are something entirely new, not mortals nor spirits nor demons, and they are created by the lyrium itself. That alone would explain a) the crazy ghosts we encounter in the Deep Roads Caridin's golem-making process: lyrium is able to create life, or at least copy it.

I have a ton of other theories, really, but these are the only ones I find plausible enough to share with the world.

[captain.subtle]

shepard_lives wrote...

I personally think the spirits are just spawned from the Warden's mind. They are lyrium-induced allucinations. 'Tis true that that would not explain how  the Guardian also knows things from your companions' past, though... unless you're willing to think that the narrative switched to each companion's POV for a minute.

Hmm. Though I doubt that.

Orrrrr, the spirits and the Guardian are thralls of a powerful spirit, who may or may not be "the Maker", that inhabits the mountain. Which I suppose would make the mountain an XXL tear in the Veil (this is obviously connected to the huge vein of lyrium). Maybe the temple was built there specifically for that reason.

The location of the temple is quite suspicious. Yes.

 lyrium is able to create life, or at least copy it.

No. Life pre-exists. Golems were made from living Dwarves. Copy life? I don't think so. But replaying previous events... sure! The "Ghosts" of the Dwarves are good example. Since Darkspawn are soul-less, the "Ghosts" of the Darkspawn are definitely not their Spirits. It is like a motion capture-replay.

[Arttis]

Sneelonz wrote...

Which is the "real" creator of Thedas? Is it the Maker or the Old Gods? How are they involved in the creation of a blight? If I understand correctly, the mages of Tevinter Imperium somehow broke into the Golden City, tainting it with their sin, creating the darkspawn. If this is true, then why do they search for the Old Gods? 

I would creatly appreciate it if someone explained these things to me... I'm utterly confused.
I've played through DAO, and don't care to play DAO:A so don't worry about spoiling anything for me. On the other hand, I'm still reading the Calling, so don't spoil anything in there. I barely even started it.

No one knows not even the writers have come up with an answer they like.
Of course I could be wrong.

[captain.subtle]

The mistake we are all making is down-playing the Avvar "Barbarians". These people built things like the Mages' Tower, the Vigil's keep and had Dane for a hero. Even tevinter copies their Statues of Women with Bowls....



Perhaps Avvar split into three tribes: Tevinter, Heroic Avvar and Dumba*ses, i****d Avvar. What do you think.

[Shepard Lives]

captain.subtle wrote...


No. Life pre-exists. Golems were made from living Dwarves. Copy life? I don't think so. But replaying previous events... sure! The "Ghosts" of the Dwarves are good example. Since Darkspawn are soul-less, the "Ghosts" of the Darkspawn are definitely not their Spirits. It is like a motion capture-replay.

Yes, I know they were made from living dwarves, but they were created by putting them into a stone/ steel armor and pouring molten metal throug the cracks. Which means that unless the dwarves were freaking Superman, they got a pretty bad case of dead in the process.

Here's my therory. Caridin used the dwarves both as a sacrifice (the events in Redcliffe, the experiments of the Magisters to enter the Fade, and the very existence and methods of Blood Magic have already proved to us that there is a strong connection between lifeblood, lyrium and the Fade) and as a "template" for the lyrium.
Meaning, the blood got the lyrium to work, and the dead dwarf gave the lyrium something to work on.

Maybe raw lyrium is only able to replay previous events, while the refined mineral, if used in particular ways, has additional and more complex uses.

[Shepard Lives]

Whoops, double post.

Modifié par shepard_lives, 30 juillet 2010 - 09:59 .

[captain.subtle]

shepard_lives wrote...

Yes, I know they were made from living dwarves, but they were created by putting them into a stone/ steel armor and pouring molten metal throug the cracks. Which means that unless the dwarves were freaking Superman, they got a pretty bad case of dead in the process.

Seems quite plausible. I actually like comparison to the Magister's Blood Magic. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that Shale (Shayle) remembers her past a bit. She seems to alive inside the Golem, if a bit amnesiac.

Maybe raw lyrium is only able to replay previous events, while the refined mineral, if used in particular ways, has additional and more complex uses.

You have something there. Perhaps Andraste's Avvar followers were not simpletons....

[Arttis]

captain.subtle wrote...

The mistake we are all making is down-playing the Avvar "Barbarians". These people built things like the Mages' Tower, the Vigil's keep and had Dane for a hero. Even tevinter copies their Statues of Women with Bowls....

Perhaps Avvar split into three tribes: Tevinter, Heroic Avvar and Dumba*ses, i****d Avvar. What do you think.

Yes I believe they have their heroes but most are **** as ****