1507 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

AlanC9 wrote...
I don't think DA could be classed as an action game since it doesn't rely on my personal reflexes. But TW does. If your definition of RPG is pure stat-based combat, then TW has to be some sort of genre hybrid.

I agree with this fellow. I enjoyed The Wicher, but from a technical standpoint I would not call it an RPG.

[Maria13]

Can I add to this? I adored the Witcher and as a female I usually enjoy only playing female characters but there was such depth to Geralt and the story that I went out and bought the book. Choices? The Witcher has hugh choices, which female do you leave the cursed/blessed child with, the healer or doctor who will love and care for him as her own or the sourceress who will develop his magic potential and may use him as an instrument (I am convinced the Witcher vastly influenced DA). Whose side to you take, the human centred knightly fascists or the rebel terrorist elves or do you remain neutral and play the end against the middle... And then there's potion making and card collecting (oh, I admit I really enjoyed that...).

[Addai]

RageGT wrote...

And since you brought movies into this, what you said about TW being more like MW than a RPG, is like saying "The LotR trilogy is more like Transformers action style movie than a fantasy movie based on Tolkien's work.". And I said nothing about "liking" this or that. I said you have a problem identifying what is a RPG. You can dislike it all you want but saying that it is more similar to Modern Warfare than to a RPG is... weird.

I think someone already addressed that wheareas to you, comparing the LOTR movies to The Transformers sounds illogical, but I'm picturing Legolas surfing off a mumak trunk and thinking "hm, yeah, that just about fits."

Modifié par Addai67, 05 août 2010 - 09:26 .

[In Exile]

RageGT wrote...

And since you brought movies into this, what you said about TW being more like MW than a RPG, is like saying "The LotR trilogy is more like Transformers action style movie than a fantasy movie based on Tolkien's work.". And I said nothing about "liking" this or that. I said you have a problem identifying what is a RPG. You can dislike it all you want but saying that it is more similar to Modern Warfare than to a RPG is... weird.

Not that I want to speak for Addai, but I think the break is that you or I would see TW as a very open game because we can make dramatic, powerful and story altering choices through the game. Yaeven vs. Sigfriend vs. Middle Finger to them All (my favourite) is a deep and meaningful choice, and there really isn't a way to come out like a hero.

To Addai, though, what matters isn't that (speaking from previous discussions) but how much you can craft who Geralt is. And Geralt is a pretty fixed character, even as you go through the really cool identity quest. To some people, a personality base that you can influence is not customizable enough.

And it might be a gender issue, as well.

[Nerevar-as]

RageGT wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
...
The happiest situation in the Witcher for me, curing the werewolf, is even lampshaded in game.

Not to mention that we must give up a very powerful Story-based Talent upgrade mutagen if we choose to remove the curse from VM.

But the happiest situation for me is the unique compliment we get to pay to a godess who is tired of people worshiping her "soul" ... and of course the divination of her desire afterwards... a godess! That was worthy the game! (I just got it in this run... never really tried it on the previous ones. - "Your *** put others to shame!" ... remember that when complimenting a godess!
(if only we had that option with Witherfang! *sighs*)

Ironically, the impossible difficulty mod lets you keep the upgrade anyway (it´s optional).
About the goddess, it was funny, but the fact she had the same nickname as Geralt´s surrogate daughter in the books squicked me a lot, even if it´s clear she is not the same person. The jabs at errant knights and quests was really funny too.
The Lady of the Forest was quite hot considering her design, I agree.

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 05 août 2010 - 09:35 .

[Addai]

the_one_54321 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
I don't think DA could be classed as an action game since it doesn't rely on my personal reflexes. But TW does. If your definition of RPG is pure stat-based combat, then TW has to be some sort of genre hybrid.

I agree with this fellow. I enjoyed The Wicher, but from a technical standpoint I would not call it an RPG.

Right?  So I'm not crazy?

I mean, linear and very basic hero story/  twitchy combat/  little customization...  I accept that by the end of the game, some depth might appear.  I believe the fans about this.  But I probably just need to read the books and skip the game.

I'm thinking the same thing about DA2, incidentally.

[Nerevar-as]

I really want to know that technical standpoint and what you call RPG. If TW isn´t then the same goes to DA, Gothic and others.

[the_one_54321]

Nerevar-as wrote...
I really want to know that technical standpoint and what you call RPG. If TW isn´t then the same goes to DA, Gothic and others.

It's simple. Does the characters abilities dictate mechanics or do yours? In a shooter you aim the gun and pull the trigger. In an RPG you select the target and the action and the characters abilities do the rest for you.

You can tack a great story and character development onto any genre of game. That doesn't mean all games are RPGs.

[In Exile]

the_one_54321 wrote...
It's simple. Does the characters abilities dictate mechanics or do yours? In a shooter you aim the gun and pull the trigger. In an RPG you select the target and the action and the characters abilities do the rest for you.

You can tack a great story and character development onto any genre of game. That doesn't mean all games are RPGs.

Would you count a final fantasy game as an RPG, then? In that game, character abilities dictate combat almost exclusively (or at least did in the older games, e.g. FF). To me, those are barely games, and certainly not RPGs. They have fixed protagonists with no customizability. Is that element at all important to your definition?

[the_one_54321]

In Exile wrote...
They have fixed protagonists with no customizability. Is that element at all important to your definition?

Not even a little important. All that effects is style. FF games (for the most part) are definitely RPGs in the technical sense. Even D&D modules came with pre-made characters.

[Nerevar-as]

I see. No, Gothic is not a RPG from that POV.

Personally, I really don´t care if you pull the trigger or rather swing the sword, if you must train the character to develop what s/he can do with the weapon it still counts as RPG combat system to me. I look more to character interaction and how the story is told and if you decide how your character gets better as a whole. More a combination of several factors than the pressence or lack of one or two of them.

[the_one_54321]

Nerevar-as wrote...
I look more to character interaction and how the story is told and if you decide how your character gets better as a whole.

Name a single genre of games where this can't be easily tacked on, or hasn't already been done. Shooters already have it. I think some fighteres too. Racing games already have improvement progression. RTSs have had it since WCIII I think. So.. maybe sports games? Those do already try to mimic the real life abilities of real life athletes though.

[AlanC9]

Addai67 wrote...
I mean, linear and very basic hero story/  twitchy combat/  little customization...  I accept that by the end of the game, some depth might appear.  I believe the fans about this.  But I probably just need to read the books and skip the game.

I don't see how the TW story is any more linear and basic than a typical Bio game. TW doesn't have different starts like DAO,  but no other Bio game has those either.

TW's got twitchy combat like ME, true, and very little customization. Even less than PS:T, since the various incarnations of TNO are supposed to be vastly different in psychology.

[Nerevar-as]

That´s what I meant by the sum of all parts. RPG elements are everywhere, and the definition changes. Do you consider Bloodwych, Dungeon Master or Might and Magic RPGs?

[the_one_54321]

Nerevar-as wrote...
That´s what I meant by the sum of all parts. RPG elements are everywhere, and the definition changes. Do you consider Bloodwych, Dungeon Master or Might and Magic RPGs?

I don't think I've played those games. Maybe Dungeon Master but I'm not sure if I'm thinking of the right games or not.

Here's a better example. Oblivion (whether you thought it was good or bad is irrelevant) is a shooter with swords, bows, and magic. It's not an RPG.
The Legend of Zelda (I love that series personally) is an action and adventure game. It is not an RPG.
Mass Effect is a shooter with leveling and open choices, not an RPG. (love that game too)

It's all in the technicalities. People have this ingrained mindset that "RPG" is not just a description but also a compliment. And that "not an RPG" is a criticism. All RPG is, is a title for a certain mechanical approach. That's it.

[AlanC9]

When Oblivion, Zelda, and ME are not RPGs, you're not using RPG the way other people do. Private definitions of words just don't work.

[Nerevar-as]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
That´s what I meant by the sum of all parts. RPG elements are everywhere, and the definition changes. Do you consider Bloodwych, Dungeon Master or Might and Magic RPGs?

I don't think I've played those games. Maybe Dungeon Master but I'm not sure if I'm thinking of the right games or not.

Here's a better example. Oblivion (whether you thought it was good or bad is irrelevant) is a shooter with swords, bows, and magic. It's not an RPG.
The Legend of Zelda (I love that series personally) is an action and adventure game. It is not an RPG.
Mass Effect is a shooter with leveling and open choices, not an RPG. (love that game too)

It's all in the technicalities. People have this ingrained mindset that "RPG" is not just a description but also a compliment. And that "not an RPG" is a criticism. All RPG is, is a title for a certain mechanical approach. That's it.

I agree to disagree with your definition.  Can´t speak about Oblivion, only played the Prologue to see if it worked. The games I mentioned are what many RPGs were some 15-20 years ago at least, the dungeon crawlers
RPG as compliment or criticism term seems to depend on the year. First everything had RPG elements, then nothing was a RPG by far.

[the_one_54321]

AlanC9 wrote...
When Oblivion, Zelda, and ME are not RPGs, you're not using RPG the way other people do. Private definitions of words just don't work.

It's far from private. There are tons of people that don't see any of those games as RPGs.

Besides, is it my definition that's private, or is it the developers that tack on key phrases to try and give their games a certain image in the market?

[AlanC9]

ME and Oblivion are classified as RPGs in almost all places. Gamespot, stores, magazine articles. The fact that a minority of people, even a large one, would dispute that doesn't change the consensus.



Bluntly, your definition of RPG has lost.

[the_one_54321]

AlanC9 wrote...
Bluntly, your definition of RPG has lost.

I'm aware. That doens't mean I have to roll over and take it.
If Oblivion is an RPG then MWII is an RPG as well. There aren't that many differences.

[DragonRageGT]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
I really want to know that technical standpoint and what you call RPG. If TW isn´t then the same goes to DA, Gothic and others.

It's simple. Does the characters abilities dictate mechanics or do yours? In a shooter you aim the gun and pull the trigger. In an RPG you select the target and the action and the characters abilities do the rest for you.

You can tack a great story and character development onto any genre of game. That doesn't mean all games are RPGs.

Well, it seems that RPG to you means... you don't control the attack/skills of your character. Only the game engine does. Roll dice and see if if you hit, how much damage you did, if it is a critical hit. Sorry but, by that definition, only Bioware games such as BG, NWN and DA (with the hidden dice roll combat system) are RPG to you and you could not be more wrong.

Being able to control exactly when to swing the sword, like in TW or Risen, how exactly it swings like in Gothic 1,2,3 or Oblivion, have absolutely nothing to do with what makes a game an RPG.

"A role-playing game (RPG) is a broad family of games in which players assume the roles of characters, or take control of one or more avatars, in a fictional setting. Actions taken within the game succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines."

"What is a Role Playing Game? Personally, I like to define a Role Playing Game as a game that MUST, ABSOLUTELY have three elements. One is a statistical setup for characters that describe certain skills/aspects of that character. Two, it must have some method of increasing and strengthening those statistics (usually but not necessarily by way of the experience/level system). Three, it must have a menu-driven combat system that utilizes the skills/aspects of the characters. Given there are other elements of RPGs that I'll leave out because of their obvious nature, these are the elements that are required for a game to be labeled RPG."

An since it is an ongoign discussion where there will never be unanimity, perhaps such discussion is better suited for a thread like http://forums.gametr...le-play/1104629.

Modifié par RageGT, 06 août 2010 - 12:45 .

[KingRanger]

AlanC9 wrote...

When Oblivion, Zelda, and ME are not RPGs, you're not using RPG the way other people do. Private definitions of words just don't work.

Oblivion and ME are classified as RPG's deal with it.

[In Exile]

the_one_54321 wrote...
Name a single genre of games where this can't be easily tacked on, or hasn't already been done. Shooters already have it. I think some fighteres too. Racing games already have improvement progression. RTSs have had it since WCIII I think. So.. maybe sports games? Those do already try to mimic the real life abilities of real life athletes though.

All genres, in fact. In which shooters do you have story choices? In which shooters do you customize your apperance? In which racing games do you exist as a person apart from a car unit driving to win? 

Games absolutely lack an interactive narrative wherein you can partially customize a character for deep and meaningful choices.