83 réponses à ce sujet

[TSMDude]

TSMDude wrote...
So depends on what you are doing this for as in player numbers or because you want to do it.
And at this Stage in the NWN World I would say almost all of us are doing it because we love it.

Since as six pointed out, not everyone reads all the way down please rad my last line again.

Just wanted to point out again that this is dependant on every world. A better place is tot alk to PLAYERS than builders, admins, or scripters. Of course we would download it. Our whole team of Staff would most likely.

Yet the OP asked about normal players. And ins everal placeson tis forum people have wondered how to gte a player base. I know we dealt with low numbers and finally hit our spurts and started getting the love. Yet there was some anxious times in there and we lost several key Staff who have known returned as our numbers have risen.

It stinks to try and Play to an audience but building a module and building a PW are different in that aspect. A SP Module is designed to be played a few times and can have some really cool surprises. A PW can but sooner or later you have to change some things up or people will just know. It would be like running through the OC 30 times.

I am not saying one is easier or harder. Both have very distinct challenges. Some similiar and soem completly different and in the end it comes down to what you want to do and your Players want to do.

[jmlzemaggo]

One download, one game.
I'm just a SP player here, and kind of simple minded as well, so, hold on your fire.
I'ld go for the hak way because it's easier, truer, stronger, and when playing the module, as hak prevails on override as far as I know anything, the player is gonna play and watch the story just as the author wanted it to be. Otherwise, it's like reading Moby Dick re-written by Michael Jackson. Many recent modules I played chose going that way. The true way. The author's way. I'm sure it's more work, making sure you were able to check until the last minute on every most recent modder's creation which just came out, and use it in your own hak, but it's much more of a personal work at the end. And that's what I like about a book, someone else's universe. Talking to mine.
I'm out. Don't shoot. Sorry for the trouble.
Just some player's toughts.

Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 30 juillet 2010 - 11:30 .

[Lord Sullivan]

Jenna WSI wrote...

...

There's a few new tilesets (worms, wild woods) that I've been drooling over.. but I'm not sure how much work the average player really wants to put into testing a server. Thanks for the imput.

Just thought I would point out that it's a tileset by "_Six" and not "Worm"... unless there is something I don't know and _Six is also Worm...

[olivier leroux]

jmlzemaggo wrote...
the player is gonna play and watch the story just as the author wanted it to be. [...] And that's what I like about a book, someone else's universe.

There lies the difference between SP mod and most PWs, jml.

Lord Sullivan wrote...
Just thought I would point out that
it's a tileset by "_Six" and not "Worm"... unless there is something I
don't know and _Six is also Worm...

I read that as an enumeration: a few new tilesets, e.g. (those by) worms, wild woods (by _six) etc.

Modifié par olivier leroux, 30 juillet 2010 - 11:55 .

[AndarianTD]

Jenna WSI wrote...

_six wrote...

Anyone who cares more about getting more players than realizing their vision has already lost my interest.

I'm going to go against the grain here. There's more than one way to share a vision. Many of us used NWN when it didn't have so many haks and CC options, and we still shared (a very good) vision. The quest, the story... that doesn't require a country road that looks nicer than the one in 1.69. The story still works.

I understand what you're saying, but two points. One of them is that you did also write that...

There's a few new tilesets (worms, wild woods) that I've been drooling over.. but I'm not sure how much work the average player really wants to put into testing a server. Thanks for the imput.

So you've already established as part of the context of your question that at least to some extent, you're developing a vision that involves using better visual custom content. Otherwise, these tilesets wouldn't be making you drool and you wouldn't be thinking of using them. And to share a vision that involves better visuals, you need better visuals.

A perhaps more subtle point about storytelling, though, is that you can't really separate it from style -- which in turn you can't really separate from medium. Gaming is a visual, audible, and interactive medium, and to excel at telling a story in such a medium you have to make these all a part of the process. They're not just "eye-candy," and they're not separate from the process of telling a good story. Rather, good use of them is part and parcel of the process of telling a good story. It's not just a matter of getting fancier-looking ones, but choosing the right ones for the right context and scene. It's a matter of setting a mood and creating an immersive experience in which everything is chosen to work together to make the story vivid and compelling.

And sometimes, that does require a country road that looks better than the one in 1.69. Or at least, one that better creates the right kind of mood for what your story needs there and at that moment to create a more compelling experience. That's why I don't hesitate to look for a broad selection of quality custom content for my own work. I'm sure it scares off many players, since Sanctum of the Archmage is one of the hak-heaviest of the NWN SP mods. But I think of that as the price for being able to tell my story and to realize its vision in the best possible way: with quality sound, music and visuals, and custom scripting, carefully chosen and developed for the purpose.

Also, I feel that if I've shared a vision but no one else is there to enjoy it, it's been something of a waste. I am -certainly- not saying I want to cater to the masses. I don't want to be another Amia or Arelith. But I want someone other than me to enjoy it, and since players literally make and shape the story in a good rp PW... it's pretty nessecary.

That's a fair point, and I grant that things may be somewhat different for a PW than for an SP mod. But at least as I've seen it, I don't think that it's a tradeoff that has to be made. If your work develops a reputation for being worth the investment, players will come to you. But that can only happen if you set the bar high enough.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 31 juillet 2010 - 01:43 .

[AndarianTD]

_six wrote...

Personally I've always been a highly aesthetic person. To feel truly immersed in any setting the visuals and just as (or more) importantly the sound have to demonstrate exactly the emotions I am supposed to be feeling... I find the real depth of a story isn't always found explicitly in the writing but in how it directs you to interpret the setting and environment...

Which sort of not exactly brings me to the point that whether or not you decide on extra haks or not, I would most certainly reccomend using custom music. It can totally change the feel of any area or event in a game, and given that unlike haks its an entirely optional extra download for players I find it really sad that it's not used more.

I very much agree with all of that, including the last part. Like Six I find it unfortunate that so few builders seem to emphasize the use and value of custom music.

[Onion Eater]

Hak to your heart's content.

[epic Kobold]

hak

[Calvinthesneak]

Hmmm custom content is pretty much a must to most players. Having been a CC organizer for a 70 player server, I can tell you people sure appreciate things like clothes and the ability to look unique or have pretty places to roleplay in.



Most users however are rather intimidated by having to learn how to install it all. They want a simple and friendly method where they download (size really isn't an issue) and then it installs to the right places.



In a couple instances I made self extracting exe for haks and they met with varied success. A system like WorldGate or Rsync that will take care of auto updating so people have a dummy proof system would help a lot.



Players want to play but they want pretty. Most folks though don't want to mess around with sorting out where and how to get the files in the right places. They want to download, click a button and have them install.

[Shadooow]

Jenna WSI wrote...

Many of us used NWN when it didn't have so many haks and CC options, and we still shared (a very good) vision. The quest, the story... that doesn't require a country road that looks nicer than the one in 1.69. The story still works.

While this is true, you don't need even CEP and defnitely not CEP2, just count how much content from it you used. Personally using CEP1 and I count about 2%.

_six wrote...
Well what I had in mind would be to simply use
additional custom music in your music folder with a custom 2da in
override when building the mod. If players don't have the music and 2da
file in their respective folders they won't get any music, but there
won't be any errors as such and they can still play fine.

Yes custom music is very cool but I would suggest you not to use it without custom haks. You know, music is quite large because its already compressed so average track is around 5mb. Also not all players listen to music so its always good idea to have this to be optional par of download. However If you won't go hak route, as six_ pointed players who don't downloaded your custom music won't hear anything. While with hak, you can play them default bioware music there and for those who didn't downloaded it.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 31 juillet 2010 - 06:13 .

[olivier leroux]

I wonder, is it somehow possible to allow for both Bioware and custom music? Let the players choose themselves in-game? I know McV included such an option in his "The Immortal" single player module, you get an options menu conversation and can choose from three different sets of music, two custom set and the default tunes. It works for the whole module, in all areas. I don't know how he did it though and if this method would be an option for a PW.

[TSMDude]

You can do custom music and players can still log in fine. Just if they are in an area with the custom music and do not have the files they just do not hear it is all.

[olivier leroux]

Yes, I got that, but in McV's mod you can choose between custom music OR default music in-game. That's why I thought there *might* be a way to allow players who don't have custom music installed to hear the default music nevertheless. But i'm not sure how it's done and maybe it's a trick that doesn't lend itself to WSI.

Modifié par olivier leroux, 31 juillet 2010 - 12:28 .

[_six]

olivier leroux wrote...

Yes, I got that, but in McV's mod you can choose between custom music OR default music in-game. That's why I thought there *might* be a way to allow players who don't have custom music installed to hear the default music nevertheless. But i'm not sure how it's done and maybe it's a trick that doesn't lend itself to WSI.

Great mod, that (with flying carpets and barrel riding, no less). IIRC that just used a script to set each area's music individually when the player made a selection, nothing really complex or CC'ey.

[Shadooow]

olivier leroux wrote...

Yes, I got that, but in McV's mod you can choose between custom music OR default music in-game. That's why I thought there *might* be a way to allow players who don't have custom music installed to hear the default music nevertheless. But i'm not sure how it's done and maybe it's a trick that doesn't lend itself to WSI.

As I said, there is a way by using hak respectively ambientmusic 2da with new lines which however contain already existing tracks. The McV's trick won't work in multiplayer module.

[olivier leroux]

ShaDoOoW wrote...
The McV's trick won't work in multiplayer module.

Not even if you set Bioware's music as default and ask players who want extra music to put an extended ambientmusic.2da in their override folder (additionally to downloading the music of course) and then let them choose to switch music in-game?

Modifié par olivier leroux, 31 juillet 2010 - 01:29 .

[Shadooow]

olivier leroux wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...
The McV's trick won't work in multiplayer module.

Not even if you set Bioware's music as default and ask players who want extra music to put an extended ambientmusic.2da in their override folder (additionally to downloading the music of course) and then let them choose to switch music in-game?

Ok I will explain it deeply. New music require ambientmusic.2da, in this 2da there is line with number which point to music file name. Default nwn ambientmusic.2da has only 95 lines. If you then add new music your music number will be then 96 >. And since player dont have line 96 he will hear nothing. So you must give every player this new 2da. Either with default tracks for those who didnt downloaded new music files, or with custom one. As you can see game server send client number -> play music 96. So if player would have there mus_citydockday it will play default city dock day music. If there would be custom music, it will play that instead. It can't be cone via scripting (McV's method) as music plays for all players in area. If you do use haks, its very simple to do, you must just include ambientmusic for those who dont have music into your haks. And then add new ambientmusic with custom tracks into download for those who want new music. But if you use haks, you might consider add music into your haks by default...

[TSMDude]

olivier leroux wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...
The McV's trick won't work in multiplayer module.

Not even if you set Bioware's music as default and ask players who want extra music to put an extended ambientmusic.2da in their override folder (additionally to downloading the music of course) and then let them choose to switch music in-game?

We have a simple Gnomish Jukebox that allows players to turn music on in Taverns. Some of it is custom and only those who have the custom override will hear it. Those who dont get the generic/default. It is pretty easy to do and as long as your builders know and have the proper downloads it is not that big of a deal.

EDIT:
As Andian wrote below this is the emthod we used and it was not as hard as you might think. In looking through the music you will see several things that can be improved or are not even used much anyhow.

You can set up a module-specific 2DA in which the 2DA entry for each custom track you want to use is placed in the same slot where an appropriate Bioware default is located. In this approach you have to pair each custom track with a Bioware default that you think is an appropriate substitute for it for players that don't want to download your custom music. Then players without the custom music will hear an appropriate Bioware default, and players who do will hear the custom tracks. However, this also requires you to move the Bioware defaults to different ID numbers if you also want to use them in the custom score.

Modifié par TSMDude, 31 juillet 2010 - 04:16 .

[olivier leroux]

ShaDoOoW wrote...
It can't be cone via scripting (McV's method) as music plays for all players in area.

Okay, that's the important bit I didn't know. Thanks for explaining!

[AndarianTD]

olivier leroux wrote...I wonder, is it somehow possible to allow for both Bioware and custom music? Let the players choose themselves in-game? I know McV included such an option in his "The Immortal" single player module, you get an options menu conversation and can choose from three different sets of music, two custom set and the default tunes. It works for the whole module, in all areas. I don't know how he did it though and if this method would be an option for a PW.

Yes, it is in principle, in a couple of ways.

• You can set up a module-specific 2DA in which the 2DA entry for each custom track you want to use is placed in the same slot where an appropriate Bioware default is located. In this approach you have to pair each custom track with a Bioware default that you think is an appropriate substitute for it for players that don't want to download your custom music. Then players without the custom music will hear an appropriate Bioware default, and players who do will hear the custom tracks. However, this also requires you to move the Bioware defaults to different ID numbers if you also want to use them in the custom score.
• The most flexible and straightforward approach is to script it. Then all you need is a mechanism for determining in-game whether the player is playing with the default Bioware score or with a custom score (and if there is more than one, which one), and setting an appropriate global variable. Then you just use the MusicBackgroundChange* and MusicBattleChange functions to change the music for each area accordingly.

I suspect McV used the second method, a variant of which I'm also going to be using in Sanctum 3. I also use the scripting method in Sanctum to change the music based on what's happening (such as starting a track with a "chase" theme or mood if the party has to flee), and for Robin's (the Bard companion's)  "jukebox" ability to change the background music if you ask him/her to play you a song.

As others have said I don't think it would work in multiplayer because the choice of music isn't a client-side setting. If you change it for one player, you change it for all. In that case you'd have to use the first approach I described, with a custom 2DA for each distinct custom score, and in which your custom tracks override the corresponding line entries in the Bioware defaults. As ShaDoOoW points out this limits you to the number of tracks in the base game's ambientmusic.2DA. As I described above you'd have to do a bit of work to structure the alternatives to sound good as alternatives to each other. Then it would just be a matter of the player dropping the necessary ambientmusic.2DA into his system (either into override or in one of several hak files with the same name but different 2DAs), and making sure he had the required music downloaded for each option, to switch between scores.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 31 juillet 2010 - 03:52 .

[AndarianTD]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

But if you use haks, you might consider add music into your haks by default...

You don't mean actually putting the .bmu files in the hak, do you? I thought that didn't work. Has that changed and I missed hearing about it? Or are you just talking about the 2DA?

Modifié par AndarianTD, 31 juillet 2010 - 03:40 .

[Shadooow]

AndarianTD wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...

But if you use haks, you might consider add music into your haks by default...

You don't mean actually putting the .bmu files in the hak, do you? I thought that didn't work. Has that changed and I missed hearing about it? Or are you just talking about the 2DA?

No I mean you make installer which put music into music folder, but it will be ine installer combined with haks.

Btw I think you can use default music more then once, I just pointed that this solution require haks or at least player to download something.

[tmanfoo]

I've been contemplating this very thing recently. I’m pretty sure I’ve decided on CEP2.3 & NWNCQ at the very least. Some of the other haks available have some amazing stuff, and they may make into the list as well.



It seems much of the appeal of NWN over the years is the ability to change what you’re working with relative ease. We might as well take full advantage of the tools at our disposal.



I say hak.

[Bubba McThudd]

As a player and a modder, I can't imagine playing NWN without haks. Fan content is one of the main reason this game is so special.

[Baaleos]

As to 'when to hak'

It depends on what the content is.





If the content is optional

2da, wav, bmu(these actually need to go in the music folder I think) - These dont require haks in order to work, they can be optionally put into the override or music folder respectivly, in order for the clients to use them. These are NON-BLOCKING. Eg - Not having these content types, will not prevent a client from entering the server without crash.



Things which are Non Optional include

Tilesets, Models, textures,possibly load screens, effects etc



These things, ARE blocking, and will cause crashes on the clients if they attempt to view one of these objects on screen, or enter an area where the objects are meant to be.





So, in terms of hak's



If you want to maximize player access, you can add sound content and 2da content as Optional enhancements. Eg - Players wont hear the music or sound effects, but wont crash. They can choose if they wana download your enhancement pack, and place it in their override directory.

This method is without haks.



If however, you decide to put these in a hak, nwn will prevent players from entering your server, if t hey dont possess that hak.



If you do decide to use hak's then you might as well go all the way in, and fill the hak to the brim with as much content as you can get.

But just remember, that the players will need this hak, preferably in the same condition as your server is using, otherwise the differences can cause crashes.



eg - Recently one of our builders was using an old version of cep2.3 and when I sent him an area I edited, and put a new placeable into for him to look at, he didnt have that model in his CEP hak's, and it caused toolset to crash.



So it is important that if you update your server content haks, that clients are FORCED to get the updated ones, otherwise they can run into crashes too.



Recap

Sound, Music - You can distribute these via override directory if you want. You can even advise new players to download the music and sound effects for enhancement value from inside your module (a signpost etc)



Models, and Visual Content - These too would work via override, but would actually cause crashes for clients if they tried to enter an area possessing a model that they lacked. Using hak's for this content is justified, as it ensures client stability for your players, by forcing them to have the content, before entering the server.



All in all,

as some gameshow would say....

'The Choice ... is yours!!'