83 réponses à ce sujet

[Karvon]

Another thought on haks...



Generally, I prefer multiple haks to a single massive all inclusive one. For updating purposes, it's a lot easier to have a top hak controlling 2das of assorted haks, than dumping everything into one, or more, combo haks. In addition, it saves players the hassle of DL'ing stuff they already have. It's also much easier to host a small 2da top hak than monsterous combo haks. Finally, you don't need to seek out CC author's permission, or draw their ire, if you keep their haks separate as opposed to merging them in to bigger ones.



Karvon

[Calvinthesneak]

This is true, the ideal way I've found though is to do certain things:

A top hak
Male Clothing
Female Clothing
Robes and Cloaks (and any associated MDL's for different phenotypes such as riding or ACP)
Heads
baseitems and icons
Tilesets (if you have many small ones)
Creatures
Placables

In this way you sort of isolate the number of files you have to search for any specific resource. Clothing haks can all be combined together but the textures tend to make them quite sizable and models for all races tend to push you to upper limits of hak size if you have a lot of pieces.

The more haks the server has to search through to find a resource, the longer the load time. It starts at the top of the list and goes down looking for a specific resource, it's not a huge deal of time, algorithms are fairly complete and concise for doing that sort of thing, but it does add up. Converseley having a lot of small haks or one big one with the same number of files is going to amount to the same difference I think.

And as for CC author's permission, I always try to obtain that if I'm using their work alone or merging, it's just common courtesy. I've had some like CTP wish for their stuff to remain standing alone and others simply are happy to have their work used.

Somewhere in my earlier post I stressed keeping it as easy for the end user as possible. Too many haks is intimidating to plenty, even if they're much smaller in size. The fact that Project Q and CEP both have an exe version available should demonstrate end users desire for ease and simplicity.

Modifié par Calvinthesneak, 01 août 2010 - 02:41 .

[Urk]

I'm all about haks. NWNs biggest appeal is the wealth of custom content.
There is some validity to the point that these forums are haunted by dedicated players, but NWN is an 8 year old game. Pretty much all NWN players are dedicated at this point.

Modifié par Urk, 01 août 2010 - 03:03 .

[Shadooow]

I wish PWs wont repackaged certain big CC like worms tilesets or six_'s tilesets. Really every PW has their haks named like PW_models and PW_tilesets. But if they would use original hak name, then you would not need to download worm tileset again and again if they are used on multiple modules... I know singleplayers do this, but not PWs.

[Calvinthesneak]

Agreed, and you'll note I said small tilesets. You start looking at something like Seasonal Forest or even older sets like the supersets, there's little point in combining with other haks.

[Bubba McThudd]

Does this avatar make my head look fat?

[_six]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

I wish PWs wont repackaged certain big CC like worms tilesets or six_'s tilesets.

Not to focus on an insignificant detail or anything, but none of my tilesets are over 10mb in 7z format

[Jenna WSI]

For now I'm just going to cross my fingers that CEP includes what I need, and see where that goes. Good debate though, and tips that people will find useful in starting a hak. And the point that once you download a hak once, if all the PW creators use the original name... there's no need to stuff part of it into your own hak. Great suggestion there.

[olivier leroux]

Jenna WSI wrote...
And the point that once you download a hak once, if all the PW creators use the original name... there's no need to stuff part of it into your own hak. Great suggestion there.

Yeah, if all PW owners did that I could probably hop from one to the next without downloading anything anymore. You don't want to know how big my hak folder has grown over the past three years...

Modifié par olivier leroux, 01 août 2010 - 10:23 .

[Shia Luck]

olivier leroux wrote...

Jenna WSI wrote...
And the point that once you download a hak once, if all the PW creators use the original name... there's no need to stuff part of it into your own hak. Great suggestion there.

Yeah, if all PW owners did that I could probably hop from one to the next without downloading anything anymore. You don't want to know how big my hak folder has grown over the past three years...

QFT. That is how to make it easy for players to try out a server with haks. Only make them download the top hak and your unique content.

[SuperFly_2000]

On the original topic I must say I have not really been a "hak"er. Maybe my first impression wasn't so good. I usually ended up downloading the wrong hak's because of inconsistent information on cluttered up forums vs homepages.

When I finally entered the server it usually looked horrible. I mean just because something is looking cool doesn't mean it needs to be pasted all over the maps. That could be trees or whatever that builder thought looked cool. Also there wasn't a minimap and there where small bugs everywhere...all from transitions to monsters not being able to follow...

For me...server hopping is vital. I guess if you are living in a shallow world where there is only one server maybe you're ok about somehow finding the right hak's and then be content with playing on that one and only server.

I guess evolution has continued though and many hak's are better today and even more importantly, builders have learned how to use them. Because let's face it. It doesn't matter what hak's your server is using if you are not using them in the right way.

There are perfectly good examples of servers that look totally new and different just using the standard NWN. Take Escaped from Underdark for example. They totally rebuilt their server using no haks whatsoever.

Don't get me wrong here. I love that people produce content for this game...but they need to stop and think about how it is going to be used...if that is what they want that is...

What I am coming to really...is that hak paks are of uttermost importance. CEP being the leading hak pak I am really hoping that more tileset creators can get in touch with them.

I know..some time ago there was a discussion about tilesets being "killed" when being put into a hak pak. I don't think that is true anymore. The tilesetcreator does however need to get connected with the CEP people to get the correct procedure for updating the tileset if needed.

I am pretty sure this is feasable.

Modifié par SuperFly_2000, 02 août 2010 - 11:37 .

[SuperFly_2000]

Oh yeah...one more thing...servers deciding to use a downloader is a really bad idea I think.



The thing with theese downloaders/injectors is that in worst case they will replace new hak's that you have with older versions of theese.



Perhaps solving the problems for that particular server but possibly destroying for a lot other servers. Not to mention if you're a builder like me and that if you can't control what is in your haks you can get into serious problems...

[AndarianTD]

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

What I am coming to really...is that hak paks are of uttermost importance. CEP being the leading hak pak I am really hoping that more tileset creators can get in touch with them.

For the record I take the opposite view. As time has gone by I've become much more inclined toward building with selective CC packages, carefully chosen by me for their quality and stability, than toward throwing everything including the kitchen sink into my mods. If that means that my players have to do some downloading in order to try them, then that's just the way it is.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 02 août 2010 - 01:18 .

[ChaosInTwilight]

olivier leroux wrote...

Yeah, if all PW owners did that I could probably hop from one to the next without downloading anything anymore. You don't want to know how big my hak folder has grown over the past three years...

Cannot be stressed enough.  I think I've download worms seasonal forest some 7 or 8 times now, because people are dolts.

Yes, its really that simple of an explanation.  People are dolts.

Edit: Heh, try and make something like this without hak's.  Just can't be done.

Modifié par ChaosInTwilight, 02 août 2010 - 10:21 .

[omen_shepperd]

Personally I cant play the game without haks. I use the PRC in OC and expansions and I am building my PW with the PRC in mind. In addition I plan on using the CEP 2.3,worms tile sets, and the ctp. I do know this is a larger number of haks to use for a PW but I have a vision and in order to make that vision happen I need to use the different haks. I kept all my haks so far as original as I can find them. I do understand that makes more downloading,but I think it will also make for less updating. I can understand not wanting to fill up a hard drive just to play on a pw but seriously most hard drives are over 50 gig now and most haks are less than 10 meg.





I also would like to say that when using haks for a PW please build you mod with your haks in mind. If you are only using a hak for a couple of things when it offers a few thousand new things then you are wasting time. The haks made by the community add so much to the game that honestly keeps making this game re-playable for so long IMO.

[SuperFly_2000]

I think thoose playing in single player are more prone to hak.



Even though...as I am using CEP myself (at least most than half of the time) that is some kind of hak.



Also I downloaded some tilesets to try out but nothing I am using really...

[Calvinthesneak]

AndarianTD wrote...

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

What I am coming to really...is that hak paks are of uttermost importance. CEP being the leading hak pak I am really hoping that more tileset creators can get in touch with them.

For the record I take the opposite view. As time has gone by I've become much more inclined toward building with selective CC packages, carefully chosen by me for their quality and stability, than toward throwing everything including the kitchen sink into my mods. If that means that my players have to do some downloading in order to try them, then that's just the way it is.

I'm in agreement with Andarian here.  The CEP has gotten massively big.  There are a lot of great things in it, I don't knock the job the CEP team has done.  I think they should look at a modular approach though.  The CEP is simply too big and now covers too much content.  Some people only want clothes, or placables or heads or tileset extentions.

It probably wouldn't be too hard to do even, or maybe it could be done now, their haks are fairly organized and seperated, it would be a matter of probably having a few more top haks.  Most builders simply will never take advantage of even half of the 2 gigabytes of content that's there.  Most builders don't even desire certain features that are there.

At any rate that is generally why servers compile their own haks, to reduce the amount of material and keep it managable and more importantly organized enough so they can find the resources should they need to alter them.  Giving builders a choice about what parts to use from the CEP might be interesting.   At any rate I'm rambling, just a thought.

[SuperFly_2000]

Well, actually Calvinthesneak, the builder doesn't have to use all the stuff because it is there. I think the CEP has lately done a fairly good job of cleaning up the palette. There is still a lot of stuff but not to the extent that it feels overhelming.



So..the only con of it being big is the download time...which isn't that of a biggie after all.



The module only gets bigger if you use any of the stuff. This is a server side and client side issue...and it is not really an issue.



If appearence crafting hasn't been turned of the players will have variety of looks to choose from without the builder having to do squat.



So..to summarize...even though the CEP is big in content it doesn't force any of this content on you.



So still...as I mentioned...I see this type of co-operation very important to the continued life of NWN.



The community has become a lot smaller...and any CEP member is free to correct me here...but I am pretty sure they are interested in talking with and probably co-operating with pretty much any custom content author that wants to put their stuff into the CEP.



There is really no downside of having your stuff in it.

[Jenna WSI]

"Yes, its really that simple of an explanation. People are dolts."



I love you guys, but this is true.

[Shadooow]

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

So..to summarize...even though the CEP is big in content it doesn't force any of this content on you.

You are right, that builder dont have to use it just because its there however CE P volume two reached limits of NWN and cause lots of issues for builders and DM. Also loading time of server gets bigger and possible that loading game for player is longer (as they have to preload at least placeables.2da).

Also there is exception, you are actually forced to use some content in CEP, namely new weapon/shield models. I dont like 90% of them so I had to disallow players to craft the visage of their gear. I know that from other server, player will wander around with jedi blades etc. I dont like it at all.

[Estelindis]

SuperFly_2000 wrote...
I think the CEP has lately done a fairly good job of cleaning up the palette.

I don't think this is actually about the palette.  (I happen to like the CEP's blueprints, but I appreciate the efforts the CEP Team has made to cut down on them or make them optional for the sake of those who find them too much.)

I think this is actually more about the organisation of the CEP haks.  CEP1 was organised by type of custom content and hak names indicated what was in each hak (e.g. cepanatomy, cepbaseitem, etc.), whereas CEP2 has core0, core1, core2, etc.  I feel that taking the CEP1 approach would allow for easier modularisation, so builders could just use one hak or another as needed - they were clearly delineated and it was easy to know what was in each hak.  (That said, I am simply making this observation as an ordinary builder.  The people involved with CEP2 might be able to name many good reasons for taking their approach rather than CEP1's.)

[AndarianTD]

Estelindis wrote...

I think this is actually more about the organisation of the CEP haks.  CEP1 was organised by type of custom content and hak names indicated what was in each hak (e.g. cepanatomy, cepbaseitem, etc.), whereas CEP2 has core0, core1, core2, etc.  I feel that taking the CEP1 approach would allow for easier modularisation, so builders could just use one hak or another as needed - they were clearly delineated and it was easy to know what was in each hak.

I couldn't agree more with this.

[Karvon]

I suspect the change to a numbered based system was to simplify knowing which order the core haks were supposed to be loaded in the tool kit. That being said, I suspect most builders would rather have the named based system for the reasons outlined by earlier posts.



Karvon

[Knight_Shield]

I will be the one to disagree with you guys and gals.I played and tried alot of servers and was not very good with a computer .So in that reguard other than putting the cd in and pushing update you would loose me.So to players of a game it is frustrating to try to login in somewhere and it tell you you need more stuff to play there .And CEP ,dont even get me started ,it seem like some started it then someone else ran the other way with it.It is wild how yuor computer runs loading all that content compared to no CEP.

I have been building on this mod now for about a year and learned alot .The people helping wanted CEP so I put it in basically for the heads ,armor, and placables.

If CEP is going to be in it then no HAKs or vice versa. I guess CEP is may be a better choice since maybe more people have it.


Seem to me they should have one commity to allow material to be added and with optional update buttons .Like option heads *push this button* so on.

I suppose if you want to Hak yuor module beyond regular people capable of loging  in who wont see it anyway then go ahead.


To close now I will give you my short opinion ,if I were to build a mod completely on my own .Part of me wants people to see it and part of me does enjoy custom content .I would choose to have standard game with one or two (optional) haks with clear instructions for people that are not computer oriented.There is a server out there that has been around for awhile and has optional head -hands. It is full 95% of the time .

Modifié par Knight_Shield, 10 août 2010 - 09:08 .

[Genisys]

Jenna WSI wrote...

As a player, do you have a problem with downloading haks in order to try a server? Would you rather just be able to login and give it a go... or does all that custom content appeal to you more? 

There's a few new tilesets (worms, wild woods) that I've been drooling over.. but I'm not sure how much work the average player really wants to put into testing a server. Thanks for the imput.

I'm glad you build for Player Jenna, surely you must have a good player base, all builders who build for players, tend to keep players around.  With that said, ask your players, if you want someone to answer for the general public, I'd say your risking losing potential customers (players) by making it harder for them to enter your server...

I personally detest using haks, especially custom haks...

CEP is something we all agree to download to use on many server modules...

I don't know about the rest of the community, maybe you should do a poll..?