233 réponses à ce sujet

[phaonica]

aries1001 wrote...
DA2 will probably feature some very unreliable storytellers...

Please, please don't make us deal with unreliable storytellers. It's bad enough that, with the shift from first to third person, Hawke is going on this next adventure instead of me, but I don't want his/her story to be often exaggerated or downplayed, or for things to be left out or added, or that various events can be written off as "maybe that's not really how it happened, and that's just what the storyteller told us". I don't want to hear Hawke's story from various sources, I want to know Hawke him/herself.

Modifié par phaonica, 01 août 2010 - 08:53 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

phaonica wrote...

aries1001 wrote...
DA2 will probably feature some very unreliable storytellers...

Please, please don't make us deal with unreliable storytellers. It's bad enough that, with the shift from first to third person, Hawke is going on this next adventure instead of me, but I don't want his/her story to be often exaggerated or downplayed, or for things to be left out or added, or that various events can be written off as "maybe that's not really how it happened, and that's just what the storyteller told us". I don't want to hear Hawke's story from various sources, I want to know Hawke him/herself.

Then you're going to be in trouble right off the bat.  We already know the framed narrative is being told by Varric, who has a tendency to exaggerate as per the SDCC demo.  I doubt they'll use the framed narrative for any ass-pulls--Gaider said on some other thread that he didn't want to use it to rob player agency.  What it's probably going to be used for is stylistic exaggeration--namely, making Hawke appear more of a badass so the game can be faster-paced.  

[Riona45]

Shiroukai wrote...

They seem to focus quite a lot on combat, I just hope the story wont suffer from it.
I rather play a RPG game with a good story and bad combat, then good combat and a bad story.

I don't think there's reason to assume the story will suffer just because they're improving combat.

Personally, I'd prefer a game with good story and good combat.  Combat is as much a part of the gameplay experience as the story is.  If the combat is bad, it will definitely be detrimental my overall opinion of the game.

[Riona45]

bla2 wrote...

looks good but why do the darkspawn look like skeletons?

They do?  I don't see it.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Riona45 wrote...

Shiroukai wrote...

They seem to focus quite a lot on combat, I just hope the story wont suffer from it.
I rather play a RPG game with a good story and bad combat, then good combat and a bad story.

I don't think there's reason to assume the story will suffer just because they're improving combat.

Personally, I'd prefer a game with good story and good combat.  Combat is as much a part of the gameplay experience as the story is.  If the combat is bad, it will definitely be detrimental my overall opinion of the game.

Yeah, I agree.  I'd like to enjoy the combats, thanks.  The combat in most BioWare games is IMO just competent--it's not bad and it passes the time, but there's nothing that really grabs me about it.  Except ME2's combat--I pathologically suck at shooters, yet I adored ME2's combat.  That was actively fun.  I looked forward to combat instead of thinking, "OK, more husks to kill."  Hopefully DA2 will be the same where combat isn't just a time-sink for me.

[SoR82]

phaonica wrote...

aries1001 wrote...
DA2 will probably feature some very unreliable storytellers...

Please, please don't make us deal with unreliable storytellers. It's bad enough that, with the shift from first to third person, Hawke is going on this next adventure instead of me, but I don't want his/her story to be often exaggerated or downplayed, or for things to be left out or added, or that various events can be written off as "maybe that's not really how it happened, and that's just what the storyteller told us". I don't want to hear Hawke's story from various sources, I want to know Hawke him/herself.

Oh dear....... im not sure how to break this to you too late they are already doing this

[Brockololly]

Its one thing to have unreliable narrators, I think people would just want to know when the narrator is hamming it up and what the actual story is when they're putting their spin on things. Like phaonica said, its bad enough we're in third person with Hawke being voiced and guessing the response, but to add the fact that we're viewing the whole narrative through the lens of a biased and unreliable narrator, that potentially really sullies one's ability to connect with the story and characters.

The whole framed narrative could be really great or it could be a disaster...

[Riona45]

I'd also like to point out that the unreliable narrator concept seems to be an important theme of the DA setting. We already *did* deal with unreliable narrators in DA:O, it's just that it wasn't obvious that the Warden's story was being recounted that way (maybe it was).

[Dick Delaware]

Riona45 wrote...

I'd also like to point out that the unreliable narrator concept seems to be an important theme of the DA setting. We already *did* deal with unreliable narrators in DA:O, it's just that it wasn't obvious that the Warden's story was being recounted that way (maybe it was).

Precisely. The whole Morrigan-Flemeth thing was pretty much two completely unreliable people having a conflict that you're in the middle of. I think that keeping facts murky can often make situations that the player is involved in much more interesting, since it makes the motives of NPC's a lot more suspect. KotOR II was based heavily on the unreliability of Kreia, and I thought it was very well done in that respect.

Really, it could be interesting, guys. If anything, I am happy that BioWare is not doing another "Collect 4 Star Maps" game.

[phaonica]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Then you're going to be in trouble right off the bat.  We already know the framed narrative is being told by Varric, who has a tendency to exaggerate as per the SDCC demo.  I doubt they'll use the framed narrative for any ass-pulls--Gaider said on some other thread that he didn't want to use it to rob player agency.  What it's probably going to be used for is stylistic exaggeration--namely, making Hawke appear more of a badass so the game can be faster-paced.  

I know that the story Varric is telling is exaggerated, I just hope it's not a recurring theme, to be able to say "maybe that's not how it really happened, that's just how the story is told". Because Leliana is a storyteller, literally nothing that she says or does in the Leliana's Story DLC can be fully be said to have actually occured the way it was presented.

[phaonica]

Riona45 wrote...

I'd also like to point out that the unreliable narrator concept seems to be an important theme of the DA setting. We already *did* deal with unreliable narrators in DA:O, it's just that it wasn't obvious that the Warden's story was being recounted that way (maybe it was).

I don't quite know what evidence there is that Origins is someone is recounting of the tale. If you are referring to the epilogue slides, then *maybe* I can see that. In which case, the presentation makes all the difference. Even the epilogue slides never gave me the impression that anything that took place in Origins didn't quite go the way I had played it.

[Dick Delaware]

KazuyaWright wrote...

So it's all levels in DA2 like ME2. Complete a level or battle - back to the narrators - on to the next level. Just like ME2's end of level screen.

That's an unfair comparison. How are the two anything alike? If you're going to boil it down like that, then you can say that the "4 Star Maps" style quest hubs are just like ME2's end of level screens as well, since after you complete a level (i.e. quest hub) you head onto the next one. You can see why this statement is faulty.

A framed narrative could have potential. It's certainly a step up from the tired old formula BioWare has been milking from Neverwinter Nights all the way up to Dragon Age itself. I doubt this will be in the game, but it would be interesting if how much your companions like/dislike you changes the way they see past events.

[Dick Delaware]

phaonica wrote...

I don't quite know what evidence there is that Origins is someone is recounting of the tale. If you are referring to the epilogue slides, then *maybe* I can see that. In which case, the presentation makes all the difference. Even the epilogue slides never gave me the impression that anything that took place in Origins didn't quite go the way I had played it.

I don't think Sable meant that the story of Origins was a framed narrative, rather that many facts in the lore were disputed and no one source was ultimately trustworthy. You can't really trust the Chantry's views on history, for example. Likewise, Morrigan's personal quest has a lot of the facts and the past history between her and Flemeth pretty murky.

I understand that the main issue a lot of people have with it is that they're afraid it's going to take player agency away from their hands, but this doesn't need to be the case. Most of KotOR II is filtered through an unreliable narrator, and it worked well there (the terrible ending is a different issue, however). Considering the story spans ten years, there's potential to introduce consequences for your actions, more so than was visible in Dragon Age.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Dick Delaware wrote...

I understand that the main issue a lot of people have with it is that they're afraid it's going to take player agency away from their hands, but this doesn't need to be the case. Most of KotOR II is filtered through an unreliable narrator, and it worked well there (the terrible ending is a different issue, however). Considering the story spans ten years, there's potential to introduce consequences for your actions, more so than was visible in Dragon Age.

KOTOR II; you're talking about Kreia, right?  And another example of unreliable narrator was Jade Empire--in that game, unreliable narrator provided the BIG F-ING PLOT TWIST, and it worked so beautifully that the JE twist is one of my favorite plot twists of all time.  BioWare's used elements of unreliable narrator in the past for dramatic punch, and never in a way that's robbed the players of agency.  Whenever they had the narrator BSing something, it was always about something that would have been beyond even the most powerful or genre savvy player.  JE's unreliable narrator, for example, was recalling events from when the PC was a baby.

[jackkel dragon]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Dick Delaware wrote...

I understand that the main issue a lot of people have with it is that they're afraid it's going to take player agency away from their hands, but this doesn't need to be the case. Most of KotOR II is filtered through an unreliable narrator, and it worked well there (the terrible ending is a different issue, however). Considering the story spans ten years, there's potential to introduce consequences for your actions, more so than was visible in Dragon Age.

KOTOR II; you're talking about Kreia, right?  And another example of unreliable narrator was Jade Empire--in that game, unreliable narrator provided the BIG F-ING PLOT TWIST, and it worked so beautifully that the JE twist is one of my favorite plot twists of all time.  BioWare's used elements of unreliable narrator in the past for dramatic punch, and never in a way that's robbed the players of agency.  Whenever they had the narrator BSing something, it was always about something that would have been beyond even the most powerful or genre savvy player.  JE's unreliable narrator, for example, was recalling events from when the PC was a baby.

I'm glad JE got mentioned, but why hasn't Zathrian been mentioned yet? "I don't know why the werewolves are attacking us." Yeah, right...

Loghain was also an unreliable "narrator" during some cutscenes. "Cailan's death was his own doing." True, but who forgot to save his sorry ass?

And if we're going for plot-twistyness with your unreliability, Loghain wins again if you read "The Stolen Throne." Some readers got real worked up by that part...

[kurtsquirt]

I'm bit disappointed about character interaction details,still really digging updates. Trying to play RDR but end up replaying origins again. Sounds like might be worth getting both versions. Has it been confirmed 2 will have a toolset?

[Sable Rhapsody]

jackkel dragon wrote...

Loghain was also an unreliable "narrator" during some cutscenes. "Cailan's death was his own doing." True, but who forgot to save his sorry ass?

And if we're going for plot-twistyness with your unreliability, Loghain wins again if you read "The Stolen Throne." Some readers got real worked up by that part...

Mmm...I wouldn't peg Loghain as an unreliable narrator in cutscenes.  Sure, the CHARACTERS present had no idea what was going on, but he didn't fool the player.  That's an in-universe of unreliable narrator.  I was thinking more an unreliable narrator for the PLAYER when I gave the JE example.  Zathrian would qualify for that too, prior to meeting the Lady of the Forest.  But in-game Loghain would not, since by that point, the player already knew what a d-bag he'd been earlier.

[SDNcN]

It would be pretty cool if sometimes Varric's narrative contradicts what you just did in the game. He would remain an unreliable narrator to Cassandra and players still see what really happens.

[phaonica]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

jackkel dragon wrote...

Loghain was also an unreliable "narrator" during some cutscenes. "Cailan's death was his own doing." True, but who forgot to save his sorry ass?

And if we're going for plot-twistyness with your unreliability, Loghain wins again if you read "The Stolen Throne." Some readers got real worked up by that part...

Mmm...I wouldn't peg Loghain as an unreliable narrator in cutscenes.  Sure, the CHARACTERS present had no idea what was going on, but he didn't fool the player.  That's an in-universe of unreliable narrator.  I was thinking more an unreliable narrator for the PLAYER when I gave the JE example.  Zathrian would qualify for that too, prior to meeting the Lady of the Forest.  But in-game Loghain would not, since by that point, the player already knew what a d-bag he'd been earlier.

Yeah, there is a difference between an unreliable character (like Morrigan or Zathrian) and an unreliable narrator. In DAO, the person that is telling the *player* the story is not one of the characters in the game.

Modifié par phaonica, 02 août 2010 - 02:09 .

[Brockololly]

phaonica wrote...
Yeah, there is a difference between an unreliable character (like Morrigan or Zathrian) and an unreliable narrator. In DAO, the person that is telling the *player* the story is not one of the characters in the game.

Exactly- in Origins we saw many debatable things but we were always directly seeing things through the POV of the Warden. There wasn't some extra narrator retelling the events of the Warden too.

Take the Guantlet at the Urn of Sacred Ashes. There is plenty of unbelieveable stuff going on there with the Guardian, and the Ashes and all the spirits and what not. Now in the game, its left up to you to wonder whether thats really divine influence of the Maker and Andraste or if maybe it was just a boat load of Lyrium making that place all weird. But what you saw as the Warden was the reality, its just how you interpreted it.

If you added the DA2 style unreliable narrator, maybe the narrator is a Chantry zealot or hates the Chantry, then when they retell the story of the Guantlet, you don't know if the Guardian is real or just the embellishment of the narrator, so you get hung up questioning the very reality of the scene and not necessarily even getting to question whether its lyrium or the Maker, because anything you're seeing could potentially be the byproduct of the narrators overactive imagination.

I think Gaider and the writers have said they won't be quite that devious, but while some may think thats a neat trick, I thought the level of unreliable characters in Origins was good enough. You add an unreliable narrator on top of things and that just gets a bit excessive to the point where you're basically wondering if anything you're playing as Hawke even matters....I don't think BioWare would go that far but the temptation to pull the rug out from underneath the player is certainly there with the framed narrative, I'd think.

[Bryy_Miller]

Riona45 wrote...

bla2 wrote...

looks good but why do the darkspawn look like skeletons?

They do?  I don't see it.

Don't you know? Hawke is an acronym for He-Man.

FemHawke is actually She-Ra.

This is the big twist.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Brockololly wrote...

I think Gaider and the writers have said they won't be quite that devious, but while some may think thats a neat trick, I thought the level of unreliable characters in Origins was good enough. You add an unreliable narrator on top of things and that just gets a bit excessive to the point where you're basically wondering if anything you're playing as Hawke even matters....I don't think BioWare would go that far but the temptation to pull the rug out from underneath the player is certainly there with the framed narrative, I'd think.

I think Gaider said they weren't trying to get rid of player agency.  From what the devs have said so far, it looks like they're employing the framed narrative so that a) the game can feel/look more stylized and it can be more episodic, focusing only on the coolest moments in the 10 year story.  That's fine.  And yes, the temptation to remove player agency (or rather, the illusion of player agency) is there, but I doubt BioWare will fail that hard.  They're pretty good about keeping a tight plot on well-done rails, while allowing the player the illusion of choice and roleplaying freedom.  I don't think they'll have too much trouble with it in the framed narrative.

Keep in mind that we'll also see cutscenes from Varric and Cassandra, presumably in the "present day" after everything Hawke's done in the game has played out.  The consequences of Hawke's actions will hopefully be established outside the frame story.

[Riona45]

Dick Delaware wrote...


I don't think Sable meant that the story of Origins was a framed narrative, rather that many facts in the lore were disputed and no one source was ultimately trustworthy. You can't really trust the Chantry's views on history, for example. Likewise, Morrigan's personal quest has a lot of the facts and the past history between her and Flemeth pretty murky.

*raises hand*  That was me actually.

Right, DA:O wasn't a framed narrative, but it does open and close with a narrator VO, and there are codex entries that mention your character's exploits in the past tense as you move through the game.  Someone must have been writing them down.  That is what I was getting at when I said the Warden's story may have been touched by an unreliable narrator (or several).  Of course it isn't definite, I was just suggesting that it was open to interpretation.

And yes, the codex entries and the Morrigan/Flemeth plot are also examples of the Unreliable Narrator in DA:O.

Modifié par Riona45, 02 août 2010 - 05:02 .

[Riona45]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

bla2 wrote...

looks good but why do the darkspawn look like skeletons?

They do?  I don't see it.

Don't you know? Hawke is an acronym for He-Man.

FemHawke is actually She-Ra.

This is the big twist.

Heh.  I've heard the Skeletor complaint, I just don't quite buy it.