53 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

rak72 wrote...

Pleeez Cauthrian doing a good job? Log & Cauth knew for over a year that Howe slaughtered the Couslands, yet they allow him to go on his merry way tourturing/killing more people. Then Log gives you some crap at the landsmeet that he should have gone in front of the Senechal? If Cauth was doing such a stellar job, the PC would not have had to break into his house to save the queen.

I never made any judgements on how well or poorly she was doing her job and we only know that Loghain heard a non-Howe 'they were trying to sell uso ut to the Orlesians and I can prove it!' version in the HN origin.

Here's the thing, though: Loghain points out that the legal way of dealing with Howe would be to bring him before the Senechal at the Landsmeet. Now, we know that Loghain is obviously very biased and is trying to make you look bad. We also don't know is Howe would have been able to bribe/blackmail his way out of the situation. However, no one at the Landsmeet interrupts and says that Loghain was wrong about that being the legal way to do things. Also, since Teyrn trumps Arl if the nobles were really free to go around having each other killed legally than you couldn't use Eamon's poisoning effectively against Loghain and yet you do because, guess what, it isn't legal.

Cauthrien may or may not be good at her job and she may or may not be ordered to leave Howe alone but since she was actually trying to do it then, regardless of the necessity her death may have been, it's still not enough to make her deserve to die. The fact she's not a noble herself may mean that you won't face any legal consequences for it but that doesn't mean that she deserves for you to strike her down in the line of duty.

[Corker]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Sadly Sarah, Ferelden is Medieval law, not modern law.

If Eamon tells someone to do something, then that makes it pretty much clear and good in Ferelden. Lords and Ladies have power to run rough shod on whatever they like including people.

Cauthrien is a naive fool, and when I end her life for going toe-to-toe with the warden I didnt mourn her loss. We both were following orders from a medieval lord, meaning we both were following orders, sadly she paid the price.

So, I actually had an entire college-level class on medieval English law.  Granted, it was over a decade ago, so I'm a bit rusty.  (But I still remember the guy charged with smuggling three dead wolf carcasses into London.  WTF?)

If Baron This-and-That told you to go and raid Baron Such-and-Such's estate, it isn't necessarily legal just because a baron said so. Baron This-and-That probably thinks it is, but Baron Such-and-Such surely disagrees.  If Baron Such-and-Such is a favorite of the king, smart money is on the king supporting Baron Such-and-Such.  And what the king says generally* goes.

In this case, Eamon said to rescue the Queen, not kill Howe.  Even if he did command you to kill Howe, you're not his vassal and bound to do his will.  (Game mechanics aside.)  Granted, you are given no choice but to kill Howe, but the law of the land doesn't really say, "Oh golly, that's okay then."

Ser Cauthrien is acting as the sheriff for the effective king, Loghain.  You are a Grey Warden and legally a traitor to king and country, allegedly responsible for the death of King Cailan, for supporting rebellion against the Crown (by allying with Eamon) and for raising an illegal and foreign army (of dwarves and Dalish elves).  

It's your game; kill her if it pleases you.  But she has the force of law behind her.

And calling her a 'cow' is just ugly.

*The balance of power shifts based on the strength of the king in question and whether you're pre- or post-Magna Carta.

[Giggles_Manically]

Game Mechanics aside, Ferelden's legal structure is just loopy.



If enough nobles side with you, everything you did is legal but if they dont then its not.

There is not a legal code to follow only whims and opionions of nobles.



Pretty much in every Bioware game we break the law, and in DA we are doing it for the whole game until the end.



Also who the hell at Bioware thought to put that to persuade Ser C. you need a high poision skill?

[Zjarcal]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Also who the hell at Bioware thought to put that to persuade Ser C. you need a high poision skill?

I guess it's because her mind has been poisoned by Loghain, so you need to de-poison her?

[Corker]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Also Sarah Medieval law, is completly on the whim of lords, and a joke. There is no right or wrong in this case, only who can kill the other.

And just to reiterate - "medieval" covers a rather large period of time and quite a few countries.  And English law was the least arbitrary and most consistent of the bunch, at least after the reforms of Henry II in the 12th century.  Precedents were kept on "pipe rolls," huge records of the cases to come before the royal courts (which traveled the countryside to hear cases from all over) and were consulted to ensure (or at least attempt) consistency between cases.

Sure, it didn't always work and people in power abused that power when they could.  But there actually was (at least in England) a system that was *supposed* to curtail the worst of the abuses and ensure a modicum of fairness.

[Giggles_Manically]

Corker while I do agree on what you are saying, until the modern era lords often did abuse their people without fear of reprisal.



One thing that amuses me is when people try to put an overlay of Modern Laws,and moralitly on Fereldan. People in that time setting would find our views as wierd as we find theirs.

[Sarah1281]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Corker while I do agree on what you are saying, until the modern era lords often did abuse their people without fear of reprisal.

One thing that amuses me is when people try to put an overlay of Modern Laws,and moralitly on Fereldan. People in that time setting would find our views as wierd as we find theirs.

Is that really what's happening here, though? Cauthrien shows up saying 'I'm here to arrest you for the murder of Arl Howe' which implies, you know, that you, the accused traitor to the crown, did not have the right to murder an Arl (and it's not like you can tell her 'no, it's cool, Eamon made me do it' and Anora won't back you either so even if it were legal if a noble said to do it which is absurd then it's not like anyone told her that). She may want to take you in for political reasons but she has a legal right to do so based on what we know of the FERELDEN system or do you really think any random guy with a sword is allowed to go off killing members of the nobility? 

Edit: And abuses of power are, by their very definition, not legal so if we're talking about the legality of what you did and what she tries to do and whether doing her job means she is evil and should die then you saying that Eamon's abusing his power by having you kill Howe but that he can get away with it doesn't mean that it's any more legal.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 31 juillet 2010 - 05:50 .

[Giggles_Manically]

While it may not be legal to fight her, I dont think getting tossed into the dungeon is a very healthy alternative as well.



Ah well I will start a charity or something in her name later, maybe for all the people Howe and Loghain enslaved and murdered, while she sat by and watched.

[Sarah1281]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

While it may not be legal to fight her, I dont think getting tossed into the dungeon is a very healthy alternative as well.

Ah well I will start a charity or something in her name later, maybe for all the people Howe and Loghain enslaved and murdered, while she sat by and watched.

I'm not judging anyone for killing her, just challenging the common notion that her legally coming to arrest you and insulting by telling you to shut up because your 'betters' were talking and calling you a churl are valid reasons for killing her (avoiding getting thrown in Fort Drakon or trying to keep Anora safe, however, are) and that she has it coming for doing her job and being a little rude.

[Giggles_Manically]

It could be that in my five first games she always ended up dead since I couldnt talk her out of her path, until I got the dialouge fix.



However she really isint that inspiring overall to listen to. I get loyaty but come on a baboon could see what Howe and Loghain were doing.

[Sarah1281]

I play on the XBox and I never go out of my way to put points in poison but I've never had a problem talking Cauthrien down...

[Giggles_Manically]

Its a PC only bug where the game checks your posion skill.

[Custodire]

I hate to deviate from the topic even further, but was Ser Cauthrien present during the scene where Loghain hires the Antivan Crows to assassinate the Warden?

[Sarah1281]

Custodire wrote...

I hate to deviate from the topic even further, but was Ser Cauthrien present during the scene where Loghain hires the Antivan Crows to assassinate the Warden?

I didn't see her.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Queen Anora ordered/asked you to free her. The only way to free her was to kill Howe/mages, so aren't you defending the Queen at her orders wouldn't that override anything? I know she isn't "monarch" yet, but she is certainly an important person, and would probably be believed over anyone testifying on Howe's behalf.



As for what the OP asked:



Lanaya: She would be a wonderful party member. First off she is a Dalish, but she also seems more open minded than most other Dalish though she certainly still has some hate, but it isn't near as bad as almost every other Dalish you encounter. She is curious about human society and the elves living in human society. She would give Origins a Dalish party member. Would make for a great romance character; gives a traditional male Dalish a viable romance also for all those elf loving shems there dream come true, an exotic female elf, with tattoos and magic. She could return to her clan and be keeper after the epilogue inviting the Warden to come with her. Not to mention would give players another option at mage.



Gorim: He is awesome. Was the first character I met in all of DAO. Was so upset when I saw him in Denerim and I couldn't convince him to follow me and end the Blight. He is my homeyg will always have a soft spot for him. I was upset too that our only dwarf companion in Origins is the stereotypical drunk dwarf and not Gorim. Why BioWare WHY??? He could of been a romance for the girls or just an incredible friend for both. This game is warrior heavy though, so that is probably why he didn't get chosen to be a companion, but next to Lanaya he would be my favorite addition.



Those are the only two. I really really really really would of loved to have had.

[_purifico_]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Yes, he attacked you first when you invaded his home and slaughtered his guards. Just because he was a monster does not mean his death wasn't murder. You did not have a legal right to kill an Arl. You did so anyway. You may have seen it as necessary and an act of vigilantism but it is still murder. As an officer of the law, she was within her rights to try to arrest you for your unlawful actions. You can choose not to go along because you feel you'll never get out of Fort Drakon and the regent wants you dead but that does not mean that her actions in that circumstance were wrong.

From a lawful point of view, that is 100% correct.

But to be honest, I couldn't care less about the law... 

I'm not even remotely defending Howe or saying that the Warden is a law-abiding citizen (although, seriously, just because Eamon tells you to doesn't make it legal). I just hate how people insist that Cauthrien deserves to die for attempting to do her job and enforce the law. You might view it as necessary to prevent Loghain from having you quietly killed in prison but she hardly 'has it coming.' And no, insulting you by calling you a churl doesn't mean she has it coming either.

Nope, I don't think that she deserves to die just because she was doing or not doing her job - i'm not her employer after all. I do, however, think that stupid cows that don't use their brain to think and analyze are usually better off dead. I also don't think that if a woman is a stupid cow I should introduce her to my blade right away (note, I didn't sacrifice Isolde). The real reasons why she was killed were stated earlier in my post: she chose the wrong person to serve AND didn't stop to think about what she was doing. Betraying the king, selling people to slavery, trying to sabotage the Grey Warden's attemts at bringing together an army to stop the Blight - she was Loghain's right hand god dammit! I have no doubt that she knew what was going on and didn't move a finger. Sure, there was nothing that she COULD do, but a human should stay human no matter the circumstances, not just become a maggot. A mere gesture in the lines of "I quit, I won't help you ruin our country" and resigning from her post would have been enough to earn my respect. But no, she demonstated a fine lack of spine.
And if she didn't know what Log was up to, then that means that she is even more reatarded than I've thought, so killing her was just a favour to her and to the fine country of Ferelden.

[Chuvvy]

Kardol
Mithra
Jowan
Merrill
Riordan
Daveth
Gorim
Ser Gilmore

Everybody romancable.

Modifié par Slidell505, 01 août 2010 - 07:34 .

[Custodire]

I was wondering when Riordan would come up.

[mousestalker]

I'd have to go with Lanaya (Dalish Keeper ftw and she's open minded), Bann Teagan even though he says he's not much of a warrior, Dwyn for general jerkiness and bad-a**ery, Gorim just because, Leske for fun, Keili because every party needs a religious loon, Cullen because if one nut is good, two must be gooder, Isabela and Ser Cauthrien for amazon levels of awesome and finally Shianni and Soris because, much like bacon, red headed elves improve everything. That's six warriors, three rogues and two mages.

[CalJones]

Cauthrien isn't stupid - she is loyal. I can't really call loyalty a fault. Like Loghain, she is a "commoner done good," so it is little wonder that she looks up to him. And of course, he is also a hero and, despite his gruffness, a very charismatic man. There's no reason for her to doubt him until much later, when he really starts to go off the rails.

I understand the irritation at her "betters" line - that annoyed me as well. But I can't hate her. She's just doing her job, as others have said. Would I recruit her? Hell yes. I have killed her in some games, but generally I prefer to let her live (after all, escaping Fort Drakon is more fun).

As for other characters, I would have loved to have been able to recruit Jowan, especially as I don't much like Wynne, and Morrigan goes AWOL at the end battle if you don't agree to her deal.

A lot of the other characters, though awesome, are origin-specific so I understand why they're not recruitable.

The one I would have loved to have had much earlier is Loghain himself. He is pretty much my favourite NPC in the game and it sucks that you don't get him for very long.

I know a lot of people choose Alistair over him because they like Alistair's character. However, some choose Alistair because you can build Alistair's skills over the course of the game, whereas Loghain has some pretty weird stats when you finally do get him. It would have been nice to customise him a little more.

[Avilia]

My dream list:

Kardol - how could you not?
Greagoir - he needs to get out of that Tower before it kills him.
Kylon - dual wielding wit ;-)
Cauthrien - that sort of loyalty is hard to come by.
Shianni - she's an archer and as has been said - lobs a mean bottle
Ash Warrior leader (with dog)
Caladrius - I know, he's an evil slaver, but he'd still be a useful team addition.
Daveth - such a short time to get to know him the poor thing.

It was hard to just choose those few.  I could do a sublist as well.

Quick question re the discussion.  Does Cauthrien say she's there to arrest you for Howe's murder?  It never struck me before - how the dickens does she even know he's dead?  His blood is still clotting....  I shall interrogate the toolset for answers.

[CalJones]

Yes, I've often wondered that...I think it's down to that shifty handmaiden of Anora's. Never trust an Orlesian elf!

[Cat Fancy]

I had every intention of killing Cauthrien (primarily because she justified slavery. don't do that!), but she was spared when I loaded an auto-save after I persuaded her to back down, like, three times. Life's too short to spend an inordinate amount of time killing a character who won't ever die, anyway (she had a messy death at Howe's for all the good that did and I ended up sparing Loghain,* so... pointless).



Anyway, topic: Jowan, Shianni, Soris. You guys are the best! Keep doing what you're doing.



*wasn't part of the plan, but Riordan dropped that incredibly subtle hint that more Grey Wardens might be a good thing

[knighteffect]

Gregoir - Allister's replacement
Marjolaine - Lilanna's replacement
Lanaya - Wynne's replacement
Isabella - Zevrans replacement
Jowan - Morrigan's replacement
Bann Teagan - Ohgren's replacement
Kolgrim - Sten's replacement
Swiftrunner - Shale's replacement

[Custodire]

Avilia wrote...

Ash Warrior leader (with dog)

The Ash Warriors as a whole are really under utilised, particularly after the lengthy intro they get in Ostagar. It's like the game decided halfway to start calling them 'beserkers' and forgot it had Ash Warrior lore already written.