22 réponses à ce sujet

[Rubbish Hero]

One of the main things I didn't like about the vanilla version of lord of the rings is that the Orcs for the most part didn't have a vioce. It wasn't until the return of the king that they started to have more charecter than "roar I'm a monster!"

That this guy "Gothmog" gave them some character. Apprently in the book he only has one line with no real description In the movie his role is expanded significantly. The thing here is, they could have just made him a
bigger, stronger orc, that's more like a monster. But in actuality, he is older, with a Elephant man appearance, only half his body works right, he's a gimp. This totally gives the character less of a "copy paste" feel and makes the orc army seem more palpable.




www.youtube.com/watch


In Dragon Age Awakening, this guy sort of reminds me of him.



Sadly, he's in the game for about 5 minutes and not really given enough attention, totally wasted. Another good thing about Lord Of The Rings, the extended version was "Mouth Of Sauron". He wasn't a big dumb monster who fights,he's like his name implies, a mouth, something that has a purpose but isn't just another "roar!" monster.



www.youtube.com/watch

Dragon Age sort of made the mage dark spawn run away because they are rubbish are close quarter combat.
This was good, it made them seem less of a dumb generic hoard. For Dragon Age 2 they should probably  steal these two  characters, "Gothmog"and "The Mouth of Salron" or at least copy and expand upon making certain darkspawn less run-of-the-mill-another-kill. People seem to be complaining about the lack of actual variety of the enemy's they are fighting gameplay wise but the other problem is that they are boring in general, they just seem like fairly generic "orc" like creatures seen in a thousand other games under a diffrent name. Also, I think simply re-designing them alone wont suddently make them 1000 times more interesting.

Modifié par Rubbish Hero, 31 juillet 2010 - 08:00 .

[Brockololly]

I agree- its why I loved the Architect is that he gave a voice to the Darkspawn unlike the generic Archdemon beast in Origins.



I don't really know how much of a role the darkspawn will play in DA2, but it would be nice to see some more Awakened darkspawn- some "good" and then some more militant "bad" ones.

[Arttis]

I believe darkspawn are only at the start when you leave lothering.

[Bryy_Miller]

We get it. You like Lord of the Rings.

[OneDoesNotSimplySlipAndSlideInto-Mordor]

The mouth of sauron is a fallen numenorean who goes around to all saurons allies collecting them and convincing weak willed men to join the dark lord.



Seeing as it is usual for the people of Thedas to band together and fight the blight, i personally believe there is no room for a darkspawn diplomat

[RevengeofNewton]

Things from a high/dark fantasy game resembles Lord of the Rings? It's almost as if LotR is some sort of major thing in fantasy....

[Rubbish Hero]

RevengeofNewton wrote...

Things from a high/dark fantasy game resembles Lord of the Rings? It's almost as if LotR is some sort of major thing in fantasy....

You are missing the point completely.
And it is a very good point, probably the best.

[lv12medic]

Talking enemies can also lead to great villain monologue scenes. Uldred kind of had one in DA:O.

Fortunately or unfortunately (depending on your view) information on DA2 seems to point to darkspawn having a limited role. However, I do agree that more intelligent enemies >> roar! monster cannon fodder enemies.

[AlanC9]

Maybe LOTR isn't the best example to use here. Although if Bioware had written LOTR, I'm sure there would have been all sorts of complaints that Sauron isn't as cool a villain as Irenicus.

[Skilled Seeker]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

We get it. You like Lord of the Rings.

Seriously its getting very annoying now. And its horde not hoard.

[DespiertaLosNinos]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

We get it. You like Lord of the Rings.

Seriously its getting very annoying now. And its horde not hoard.

RubbishHero annoying? Never

[UndercoverDoctor]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

We get it. You like Lord of the Rings.

[GrowlJones]

I would disagree with the idea of creating more intelligent or morally aware darkspawn. At this point its standard fare to make a calculating Darth Vader-like character out of every fantasy bad guy. Its actually a bit more unique and even scary that you are fighting something that cannot be negotiated or reasoned with. I think of the darkspawn as a pack of wild dogs. The pack doesn't need to have a personailty for me to realize that I'm scared of their intentions and the pack doesn't require a well thought out plan to decide that they want to attack me. They just will...or they won't. The unpredictability of the crazed horde is what makes them dangerous.

I will agree that this type of storyline would become boring in the long run so I hope that DA2 heads in an entirely different direction than basically rehashing another blight. I'm hoping darkspawn become a secondary issue (at best) in the sequel.

[Skilled Seeker]

GrowlJones wrote...

I would disagree with the idea of creating more intelligent or morally aware darkspawn. At this point its standard fare to make a calculating Darth Vader-like character out of every fantasy bad guy. Its actually a bit more unique and even scary that you are fighting something that cannot be negotiated or reasoned with. I think of the darkspawn as a pack of wild dogs. The pack doesn't need to have a personailty for me to realize that I'm scared of their intentions and the pack doesn't require a well thought out plan to decide that they want to attack me. They just will...or they won't. The unpredictability of the crazed horde is what makes them dangerous.

I will agree that this type of storyline would become boring in the long run so I hope that DA2 heads in an entirely different direction than basically rehashing another blight. I'm hoping darkspawn become a secondary issue (at best) in the sequel.

Well we already have awakened darkspawn so intelligent adversaries are part of the lore now like it or not.

[tmelange]

GrowlJones wrote...

I would disagree with the idea of creating more intelligent or morally aware darkspawn. At this point its standard fare to make a calculating Darth Vader-like character out of every fantasy bad guy. Its actually a bit more unique and even scary that you are fighting something that cannot be negotiated or reasoned with. I think of the darkspawn as a pack of wild dogs. The pack doesn't need to have a personailty for me to realize that I'm scared of their intentions and the pack doesn't require a well thought out plan to decide that they want to attack me. They just will...or they won't. The unpredictability of the crazed horde is what makes them dangerous.

I will agree that this type of storyline would become boring in the long run so I hope that DA2 heads in an entirely different direction than basically rehashing another blight. I'm hoping darkspawn become a secondary issue (at best) in the sequel.

I feel the same way. I don't feel that every evil needs to be cognizable. A lot of times, an implacable evil is...epic. You don't expect Satan (though intelligent) to ever be anything other than evil. You don't get diplomatic with Aliens. The fun with T1 was that the terminator was unstoppable. It's so much scarier, IMHO, when the bad guys are just BAD, and there's no point of negotiation, no common ground, and even scarier when you can't even understand them or their motivations. Not everything needs to be brought back to the light side of the force, Luke.

[L33TDAWG]

Play on Nightmare and you see more tactics come about of the simple minded Dark Spawn you speak of.

[SirOccam]

tmelange wrote...

GrowlJones wrote...

I would disagree with the idea of creating more intelligent or morally aware darkspawn. At this point its standard fare to make a calculating Darth Vader-like character out of every fantasy bad guy. Its actually a bit more unique and even scary that you are fighting something that cannot be negotiated or reasoned with. I think of the darkspawn as a pack of wild dogs. The pack doesn't need to have a personailty for me to realize that I'm scared of their intentions and the pack doesn't require a well thought out plan to decide that they want to attack me. They just will...or they won't. The unpredictability of the crazed horde is what makes them dangerous.

I will agree that this type of storyline would become boring in the long run so I hope that DA2 heads in an entirely different direction than basically rehashing another blight. I'm hoping darkspawn become a secondary issue (at best) in the sequel.

I feel the same way. I don't feel that every evil needs to be cognizable. A lot of times, an implacable evil is...epic. You don't expect Satan (though intelligent) to ever be anything other than evil. You don't get diplomatic with Aliens. The fun with T1 was that the terminator was unstoppable. It's so much scarier, IMHO, when the bad guys are just BAD, and there's no point of negotiation, no common ground, and even scarier when you can't even understand them or their motivations. Not everything needs to be brought back to the light side of the force, Luke.

I disagree. They can be fun in a summer-blockbuster-popcorn-muncher kind of way, but for anything more real or engaging, they've got to make characters more than one-dimensional.

For example I thought Loghain was a way better villain than the Archdemon. And that's not only because you could "convert" him (though redemption storylines are among my favorite kinds). I'd rather have a bad guy who's not going to stop being bad, not because he's just rotten to the core, but because he truly believes he is doing something good.

[tmelange]

SirOccam wrote...

tmelange wrote...

GrowlJones wrote...

I would disagree with the idea of creating more intelligent or morally aware darkspawn. At this point its standard fare to make a calculating Darth Vader-like character out of every fantasy bad guy. Its actually a bit more unique and even scary that you are fighting something that cannot be negotiated or reasoned with. I think of the darkspawn as a pack of wild dogs. The pack doesn't need to have a personailty for me to realize that I'm scared of their intentions and the pack doesn't require a well thought out plan to decide that they want to attack me. They just will...or they won't. The unpredictability of the crazed horde is what makes them dangerous.

I will agree that this type of storyline would become boring in the long run so I hope that DA2 heads in an entirely different direction than basically rehashing another blight. I'm hoping darkspawn become a secondary issue (at best) in the sequel.

I feel the same way. I don't feel that every evil needs to be cognizable. A lot of times, an implacable evil is...epic. You don't expect Satan (though intelligent) to ever be anything other than evil. You don't get diplomatic with Aliens. The fun with T1 was that the terminator was unstoppable. It's so much scarier, IMHO, when the bad guys are just BAD, and there's no point of negotiation, no common ground, and even scarier when you can't even understand them or their motivations. Not everything needs to be brought back to the light side of the force, Luke.

I disagree. They can be fun in a summer-blockbuster-popcorn-muncher kind of way, but for anything more real or engaging, they've got to make characters more than one-dimensional.

For example I thought Loghain was a way better villain than the Archdemon. And that's not only because you could "convert" him (though redemption storylines are among my favorite kinds). I'd rather have a bad guy who's not going to stop being bad, not because he's just rotten to the core, but because he truly believes he is doing something good.

I didn't say that every evil needs to be implacable; only that I don't feel that *every* evil introduced into the story needs to have some level of relatability, and that it's scarier to me to have an evil in the story that can't be handled. The darkspawn don't need to be intelligent, or capable of diplomacy, or morally conflicted; they can simply be evil, and effective as such. There are other villains in the story, like Loghain, who can be multi-dimentional and redeemed. It's the same thing as in ME. You have the Reapers as the unfathomable evil, and the other villains in the story, like Saren and Liara's mother and the Geth that are more approachable and, thus, less scary.

Not every evil in the story has to be turned into a multi-dimentional reclaimation project. Sometimes, the evil is simply...evil, unkownable and unapproachable, like Sauron. I think such an evil is scarier, not necessarily more interesting.

[Saibh]

tmelange wrote...

I didn't say that every evil needs to be implacable; only that I don't feel that *every* evil introduced into the story needs to have some level of relatability, and that it's scarier to me to have an evil in the story that can't be handled. The darkspawn don't need to be intelligent, or capable of diplomacy, or morally conflicted; they can simply be evil, and effective as such. There are other villains in the story, like Loghain, who can be multi-dimentional and redeemed. It's the same thing as in ME. You have the Reapers as the unfathomable evil, and the other villains in the story, like Saren and Liara's mother and the Geth that are more approachable and, thus, less scary.

Not every evil in the story has to be turned into a multi-dimentional reclaimation project. Sometimes, the evil is simply...evil, unkownable and unapproachable, like Sauron. I think such an evil is scarier, not necessarily more interesting.

I don't agree. Regan (I'm assuming that's how you spell the name, I refuse to look it up) from the Exorcist is terrifying because she looks terrifying. No amount of backstory makes her more or less so. Sauron...is an eyeball. Or a guy in a big black metal suit with lots of spikes. They're not frightening because there's nothing real about them, nothing relatable. I don't think villains need to be "scary". But, more often than not, I think truly terrifying villains are the most human. Truly effective villains as well.

Some great evil come to destroy your family and loved ones is too grandoise to feel like a real threat. The Archdemon is like...a villain MacGuffin. I know, I know, not technically, but that's kind of what it feels like, in terms of just...distance to the actual plot. "There is a bad demon thing. Oh no!"

Modifié par Saibh, 02 août 2010 - 03:10 .

[wwwwowwww]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

We get it. You like Lord of the Rings.

Seriously its getting very annoying now. And its horde not hoard.

Yeah and it is "it's not its" 

[Elanareon]

How come there's so much hate for LOTR? The books were amazing! I get that people have different tastes but do you have to shoot it down like that?

[Rapidiul]

For the Hoard.

[tmelange]

Saibh wrote...

tmelange wrote...

I didn't say that every evil needs to be implacable; only that I don't feel that *every* evil introduced into the story needs to have some level of relatability, and that it's scarier to me to have an evil in the story that can't be handled. The darkspawn don't need to be intelligent, or capable of diplomacy, or morally conflicted; they can simply be evil, and effective as such. There are other villains in the story, like Loghain, who can be multi-dimentional and redeemed. It's the same thing as in ME. You have the Reapers as the unfathomable evil, and the other villains in the story, like Saren and Liara's mother and the Geth that are more approachable and, thus, less scary.

Not every evil in the story has to be turned into a multi-dimentional reclaimation project. Sometimes, the evil is simply...evil, unkownable and unapproachable, like Sauron. I think such an evil is scarier, not necessarily more interesting.

I don't agree. Regan (I'm assuming that's how you spell the name, I refuse to look it up) from the Exorcist is terrifying because she looks terrifying. No amount of backstory makes her more or less so. Sauron...is an eyeball. Or a guy in a big black metal suit with lots of spikes. They're not frightening because there's nothing real about them, nothing relatable. I don't think villains need to be "scary". But, more often than not, I think truly terrifying villains are the most human. Truly effective villains as well.

Some great evil come to destroy your family and loved ones is too grandoise to feel like a real threat. The Archdemon is like...a villain MacGuffin. I know, I know, not technically, but that's kind of what it feels like, in terms of just...distance to the actual plot. "There is a bad demon thing. Oh no!"

That girl in the Exorcist isn't the thing you're supposed to be afraid of. It's the fact that she's possessed by something undefined and unapproachable (Satan? I don't remember) that is the evil of the story. And the issue isn't so much what you or I, reading or watching the story, would think is scary or stupid, a la the eye of Sauran, but what the characters in the story would think/feel when being confronted with something that they have no way of reasoning with. I think we'll have to agree to disagree, but I can't see how it is scarier to the person/character faced with the situation to have to deal with Loghain, someone who can be reasoned with (and was reasoned with in the game) versus something that you can't even approach, or talk to, or reason with or stop. It might be more interesting to the watcher/reader/player to have a villain that can be identified with and whose POV you eventually come to understand, but I'm not sure you can say that that approach is scarier or more effective in building a sense of dread.

I mean, Loghain is a great villain, but no one, inside the game or out, is *afraid* of him. People in the story are *afraid* of the darkspawn, and of the dragon. Different types of evil serving different puposes, which goes back to the original point: not every evil has to be cognizable (or multi-dimentional).

Modifié par tmelange, 02 août 2010 - 05:16 .