886 réponses à ce sujet

[Zjarcal]

While Nelaros rescue attempt was very sweet, the idea of an arranged marriage (even if the groom or the bride are the best thing since sliced bread) is so repulsive to me that his wedding ring stays on his body. I'm also not particularly nice to him during the brief conversation in the Alienage.

Poor guy though, he certainly didn't deserve to die like that. Makes you hate Vaughn even more.

By the way, what does he say if you tell him that you were nervous to meet him? Obviously I never pick that line and I couldn't find that particular dialog in the toolset.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 16 août 2010 - 05:01 .

[Sarah1281]

I find it repulsive, too, but I figure it's not his fault any more than it is mine and he is making an effort so I just pick the neutral options. I'm not flirting with him or particularly warm but I'm not openly insulting him, either. Then I always take the ring because even if I just dodged a bullet, he DID die for me.

[Addai]

Zjarcal wrote...

While Nelaros rescue attempt was very sweet, the idea of an arranged marriage (even if the groom or the bride are the best thing since sliced bread) is so repulsive to me that his wedding ring stays on his body. I'm also not particularly nice to him during the brief conversation in the Alienage.

Poor guy though, he certainly didn't deserve to die like that. Makes you hate Vaughn even more.

By the way, what does he say if you tell him that you were nervous to meet him? Obviously I never pick that line and I couldn't find that particular dialog in the toolset.

He says something like "I'll spend every day of my life learning how to make you happy."

I have more positive associations with arranged marriage so I hadn't thought of it in those terms.  Arranged marriage is not necessarily forced marriage, though they do make it seem forced in the CE origin.  I have had friends who wanted arranged marriages, though it was more of a case of their parents helping to arrange introductions and they could choose whether or not to pursue it.  For small, scattered, very traditional communities like the elves, a "yenta" is not just a tradition but practically a necessity.

[Zjarcal]

An "arranged marriage" where the couple gets to know each other and then decides if they're compatible is definitely much more acceptable. The CE one though definitely feels forced, even if as you pointed out, they do it out of necessity.



I guess I'd rather tough it out by myself.



Oh and that line is pretty sweet indeed. Like I said, the guy is really great but I'm just too stubborn about something like this.

[Addai]

Oh, I understand. Sometimes there are just lines to cross, or things you react to. If anything I thought the dialogue options made too much of the PC wanting to run away. I guess that is in keeping with the idea of the CE as a rabble rouser and independent spirit.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Oh, I understand. Sometimes there are just lines to cross, or things you react to. If anything I thought the dialogue options made too much of the PC wanting to run away. I guess that is in keeping with the idea of the CE as a rabble rouser and independent spirit.

Was it too much because that's how things were done in that community? I know that if I were suddenly stuck in an arranged marriage I'd probably plot to run away, too. Of course, it's notable that they don't actually try it, they're just complaining.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Oh, I understand. Sometimes there are just lines to cross, or things you react to. If anything I thought the dialogue options made too much of the PC wanting to run away. I guess that is in keeping with the idea of the CE as a rabble rouser and independent spirit.

Was it too much because that's how things were done in that community? I know that if I were suddenly stuck in an arranged marriage I'd probably plot to run away, too. Of course, it's notable that they don't actually try it, they're just complaining.

Yes I think if you were raised with that idea, it would be something you could accept more readily.  It didn't really bother me, I just noticed that 2/3rds of the responses were about the PC dreading it, even during the ceremony which seemed kind of comical.

[Zjarcal]

I guess they were probably taking into consideration the general opinion (from the player's perspective, not the characters) on an arranged marriage, not so much how the city elves would look upon it.



I don't have any info to back it up but I'd take a guess that most people would be against an arranged marriage.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Zjarcal wrote...

An "arranged marriage" where the couple gets to know each other and then decides if they're compatible is definitely much more acceptable. The CE one though definitely feels forced, even if as you pointed out, they do it out of necessity.

I guess I'd rather tough it out by myself.

Oh and that line is pretty sweet indeed. Like I said, the guy is really great but I'm just too stubborn about something like this.

From what it sound like Soris was implying. Until you get married in the Alienage, you're not concidered an adult. So 'toughing it out' probably isn't strictly an option. You'll still be concidered a child and your parent(s)/Elders are able to make a lot of your decisions for you. Like who you marry.

Didn't particularly blame Nelaros about the situation though. He wasn't given a choice any more then my CEFs were. One was leerly but willing to give it a shot, another was dead set againt it and Neige was in the 'lay back and think of Ferelden' camp.

[adneate]

Marriage traditionally in Western society has rarely been about love or even fondness, it is almost always for family reasons. Noble women were married off to secure alliances and acts as diplomats for their families, even among the lower classes marriages were a business deal and you tried to make the best marriage possible. In Italy being a successful matchmaker was an incredibly powerful position, the Medici family ruled Florence in part just by helping make good marriages for various families who would give absolute loyalty in exchange for an advantageous match.

That being said I play a CEF as neutral to the whole thing, and I take the ring if only because with IA it has a +1 Willpower enchantment and there are not many enchanted rings early in the game.

[Zjarcal]

Liliandra Nadiar wrote...

From what it sound like Soris was implying, until you get married in the Alienage, you're not concidered an adult. So 'toughing it out' probably isn't strictly an option. You'll still be concidered a child and your parent(s)/Elders are able to make a lot of your decisions for you. Like who you marry.

Didn't particularly blame Nelaros about the situation though. He wasn't given a choice any more then my CEFs were. One was leerly but willing to give it a shot, another was dead set againt it and Neige was in the 'lay back and think of Ferelden' camp.

Then if actually going through the marriage makes you an adult, it'd be easy to make the decision to call it quits once the marriage ceremony is completed.

[Remmirath]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I admit, I didn't like Nesiara. I assume Nelaros is pretty similar, so I'd probably find him equally annoying - although, clearly, neither deserved what happened to them.

I actually found her far more annoying than him. Plus, you know, he dies to save you and organizes a rescue when you're kidnapped. That certainly earns him more points than Nesiara just waiting to be saved (I'm not saying there was anything else she could have done so it's not a strike against her, more a point in Nelaros' favor).

True, that's definitely a point in his favour. I guess I just sort of assumed he'd be basically the same only the opposite gender.

I'm not really big on the whole arranged marriage thing, either. I can see the reasons for it in the game - or at least, the reasons for making sure the person you marry is from a different alienage - and that is certainly how things often were in the past, but I can also easily see someone not liking the idea of it even if they knew all along it was expected of them. There are plenty of parts of modern society that I'm not thrilled about, for example, and would change if I could. Growing up with something doesn't necessarily mean you're okay with it.

Zemariel started out by complaining about it and wasn't terribly nice to her (though he didn't see any reason to be mean to her, either, since it wasn't her fault) and felt quite relieved when he realised he wouldn't have to marry her after all. Of course, he also felt a bit bad about feeling that way because of the circumstances surrounding it and had done his best to try to rescue her, since 'I don't want to marry her' does not equal 'I want her to suffer'.

I think part of the reason there are so many discontented options is to give a wider spectrum of reactions through 'oh, Maker no' to 'I'm okay with this'. It's also probably partly that a lot of people wouldn't be exactly happy about having to marry someone they've never even met, at least to begin with. Or you might be okay with it until you realise who the person is. It gives more of the option of a shifting reaction to it, I think.

[Sarah1281]

Zemariel started out by complaining about it and wasn't terribly nice to her (though he didn't see any reason to be mean to her, either, since it wasn't her fault) and felt quite relieved when he realised he wouldn't have to marry her after all. Of course, he also felt a bit bad about feeling that way because of the circumstances surrounding it and had done his best to try to rescue her, since 'I don't want to marry her' does not equal 'I want her to suffer'. 

Yeah, Nesiara's story doesn't end badly if you refuse the bribe. She stays in Denerim and thinks about opening up a store but then uses the money your father paid so she would come to Denerim instead of vice versa to go back home. Nelaros dies no matter what you do. OTOH, if you DO accept the bribe than Nesiara is killed by Vaughan after he presumably rapes her, possibly repeatedly. I've yet to run into anyone who actually does that, though.
Since Nelaros and Nesiara look so much alike and they're both apparently the best money could buy from the Highever Alienage, I do wonder if they're at all related. If not siblings then at least cousins.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 17 août 2010 - 06:32 .

[Liliandra Nadiar]

I tend to the idea that they're the 'same' only dependent on Tabris' gender. Brother/Sister at the very least if they both exist. There's also the modest chance the Highever Alienage is of a higher quality due to Bryce and Elanor being more willing to see to their elves quality of life then the Arl of Denerim. Though that's solely based on the kitchen elves interaction with Nan. Can't imagine the Denerim cook was kind enough to 'allow' backtalk from his elf assistant like Nan did, not if he was willing to club him at the first opportunity.

[Remmirath]

I think the only people who take the bribe would probably be those playing very amoral characters.

As to Nesiara and Nelaros - I also tend to think of them as being two sides to the same person, although it's entirely possible they're not. If they aren't, I'd probably say they're twins or something. They do look very similar, and there's also the naming similarity.

I'd guess that the Highever alienage is slightly nicer than the Denerim one, but I get the impression none of them are really what one would call nice.

[Sandtigress]

I'd say they're probably not...I'm more likely to go with cousins or siblings, based on the fact that Howe will tell you either that Thomas or Delilah has asked about you, depending on your gender, but both children exist. Wouldn't surprise me if both Nesiara and Nelaros exist then.



The Couslands, I think, are supposedly better to elves than most which makes me think the Highever alienage is a nicer place - the only comment I've seen in-game about it is that the people you need to bribe to get into the Highever alienage are nastier.

[Addai]

Have a Smailika Shianni.



From a Twitter discussion:  We were saying how dismayed we were by Velanna and how she seemed to embody all the dumb stereotypes of the Dalish wrapped up in one.  Maniac, homicidal human-hater, b*tchy etc.  The one offset is that she appears to be educated and concerned with elven literacy.  Anyway, thoughts on Velanna?  Not that I would want a cuddly Dalish, necessarily, but it's a shame there wasn't something more nuanced.

[Zjarcal]

Addai67 wrote...

From a Twitter discussion:  We were saying how dismayed we were by Velanna and how she seemed to embody all the dumb stereotypes of the Dalish wrapped up in one.  Maniac, homicidal human-hater, b*tchy etc.  The one offset is that she appears to be educated and concerned with elven literacy.  Anyway, thoughts on Velanna?  Not that I would want a cuddly Dalish, necessarily, but it's a shame there wasn't something more nuanced.

I think the part where I gave up on trying to like Velanna was on that banter she was with Nate where he asks her how did she feel after knowing she murdered all those people because she was too arrogant to check her facts. Her response of "warm and fuzzy" revolted me quite a bit.

The fact that she snaps at pretty much anything you tell her during her conversations doesn't help.

Like you said, a cuddly Dalish wouldn't have been any better but she didn't have to be such a jerk all the time. Take Mithra from the Dalish camp as an example. She's standoffish and threatens to pierce your heart or your eye with her arrows if you get all aggressive, but she manages to apologize for her behavior later on explaining that as a Dalish they can never let their guard down.

If only Velanna hadn't been such an arrogant and jerky loose cannon all the time, maybe I could've grown to like her. As it is, she either dies in her camp or sits around by herself at the Keep. The one bright point about recruiting her is getting this conversation:

Velanna: "Are you at all curious about my exile?
Warden: "If I said yes, would that earn me a tongue-lashing?"
Velanna: "You make me out to be some kind of shrill harpy!"
Warden: "That's because you are a shrill harpy."

Modifié par Zjarcal, 17 août 2010 - 07:45 .

[mousestalker]

She has a great dialogue with the Warden in Amaranthine when you meet the city elves. It's best if the Warden is an elf as well.

[adneate]

Velanna and Oghren are the two most pointless and terribly done characters in Awakening. Who they are when you meet them is exactly who they are when the game is done, they don't change or grow in any way. Velanna could have worked as a character but she just comes across as totally unlikeable and then randomly shifts into confiding in The Warden who apparently is her best friend then right back to screeching at things and being unpleasant. Why is she like this? Never explained. At the end of the game is she any different? Nope. She was just a stock BioWare character, a face to slowly drip feed a back story to the player and then stop talking.

[Sarah1281]

I really hated the Nathaniel flirting. It's one thing for him to do it but for her to melt during that conversation? The "Oh, I am a proud shem-hating Dalish and I want nothing to do with your kind...what? You want to call me 'my lady'? *giggle*" is just as much of a cliché as some of the other things. And it's not even just an elf/human things. It's a huge cliché in general for someone to hate another group...until hormones get involved.

[A71C3]

adneate wrote...
Velanna and Oghren are the two most pointless and terribly done characters in Awakening. Who they are when
you meet them is exactly who they are when the game is done, they don't change or grow in any way. Velanna could have worked as a character but she just comes across as totally unlikeable and then randomly shifts into confiding in The Warden who apparently is her best friend then right back to screeching at things and being unpleasant. Why is she like this? Never explained. At the end of the game is she any different? Nope. She was just a stock BioWare character, a face to slowly drip feed a back story to the player and then stop talking.

I don't know, I felt at the end of the game she did change (if you went through the trouble of upping her approval, which I felt was rather tough).  Yeah she's selfish and really self-centered but I felt she acted that way because she believed no one cared what she thought.  Some people retract when they feel unwanted while others become even louder to be heard.  I think her banter with Justice is what really turned around for me:

* Justice: Why do you believe that atonement is unnecessary?
* Velanna: By the Creators! This again?
* Justice: You murdered humans because you believed they had wronged you, yet they had not.
* Velanna: Humans have wronged my kind plenty.
* Justice: Yet they were innocent of this.
* Velanna: Don't speak of what you do not understand, spirit!

* Justice: You are correct that I do not understand, Velanna. Help me to understand.
* Velanna: (Sigh) There is... so much history between my kind and humans, Justice. Where would I begin?
* Justice: You can only be responsible for your actions, your judgement. Does the same not apply to them?
* Velanna: You may be right. I don't know.
* Justice: And the atonement?
* Velanna: I will atone when they do.

* Velanna: What sort of atonement would be appropriate?
* Justice: You have reconsidered, then?
* Velanna: I am simply curious to hear what you think would be suitable.
* Justice: Teach them. Show these humans what they are so carelessly destroying.
* Velanna: And if they do not listen?
* Justice: Then you have done what you could.
* Velanna: It's... worth thinking about.

Oh and her line if you left her at Vigil's Keep but came back to save it is:
You're here?  You... you didn't abandon me after all.

Modifié par A71C3, 17 août 2010 - 08:07 .

[Sandtigress]

That last bit is what my Kara is all about - trying to correct all the misunderstandings that humans have by her own example. Which is why Velanna gets packed off to the Hinterlands to join the clans. I'm sure that the Mahariel clan would let her in on Kara's word, and that way the lore that she has also won't be lost to the Joining.

[Zjarcal]

A71C3 wrote...

I don't know, I felt at the end of the game she did change (if you went through the trouble of upping her approval, which I felt was rather tough). 

Tough is an understatement. I think it's impossible to get her all the way to "friendly" unless you shower her with gifts. Actually that's kind of true for all the Awakening characters... I hate that.

The epilogue does mention that she'll change her views on humanity if the Warden befriended her, even stating that she defends a human village from darkspawn stragglers. This epilogue slide would be rather inappropriate if the Warden who befriended her was a human hating elf...

@MouseStalker:

I've never gotten that conversation but I've read about it. Something along the lines of asking her if you make her sick too when she comments how the city elves sicken her.

[Eudaemonium]

Zjarcal wrote...

I've never gotten that conversation but I've read about it. Something along the lines of asking her if you make her sick too when she comments how the city elves sicken her.

Yeah, sicne I tend to play City Elves I get that dialogue a fair bit. She responds with something along the lines of 'You have proven... different. You did not flee when I threatened you.'

Basically, Velanna wants the elves to stand up for themselves, that's why she also admires Andraste, even though she was human, because she fought for freedom against oppression. She's just... very poor at doing it. I think she takes a step in the right direction with several of her party banters and when she gives the city elves that Dalish amulet to remidn them of their heritage. In all fairness, they are kinda like 'oooh, look, a dalish.' like she's some exotic beast. The City Elves in general seem to have certain opinions of what the Dalish are like - savage and bestial, particularly.