100 réponses à ce sujet

[joriandrake]

The Woldan wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

ok, stop the trolling. now.

What I am trying to say is that just because its a fantasy game it doesn't mean that its a good idea to throw realism over board.
But you don't get it anyway, so...have fun with your glass weapons and dinosaurs.

What you don't get is that anything non-technological can be part of the fantasy genre, and in many settings it is already, including dinosaurs and glass/crystal armament

[Giant ambush beetle]

What you don't get is that anything non-technological can be part of the fantasy genre

Non-technological? Too bad, DA would be back in the stone age then. You obviously don't know how much technology is involved in making armor and refining steel let alone building castles etc.
And Qunari have cannons, does this sound technologically enough for you? Do you know how much technology you need for making powder and refining steel for firearms?

[joriandrake]

The Woldan wrote...

What you don't get is that anything non-technological can be part of the fantasy genre

Non-technological? Too bad, DA would be back in the stone age then. You obviously don't know how much technology is involved in making armor and refining steel let alone building castles etc.
And Qunari have cannons, does this sound technologically enough for you? Do you know how much technology you need for making powder and refining steel for firearms?

n

fine, everything that is not over steam-tech, and even that makes it more steampunk than otherwise

[Tsuga C]

The Woldan wrote...

Tsuga C wrote...
As an official Grognard, I've posted at length about this subject and it seems that the expletives foisting such preposterous crap on us have never held a real weapon and felt the balance and power they offer.  Konsole Kiddies and Generation Tardzilla--gotta luv dat demographic EaWare is trying to please.  

I couldn't agree more, Tsuga-C, unfortunately people liking this kind of weapons and over-the-top-ness seem to be the target audience so.... screw realism. 8/
Why not a compromise? BW could make over the top weapons for the younger audience and some more realistic weapons for people like us? That would please both worlds. 

It's an unfortunate situation we face, Woldan.


 
http://social.biowar...sion/8760/&p=21
 
Tsuga C: Grognards want less MOAR and more less. Doesn't seem to be the trend, though.
 
Mary Kirby: Grognards are never happy. If we gave them realistic weapons and armor, they'd complain that the fighting animations weren't accurate. Fix the fight animations, and they'd go back to arguing that the weapon damage is unrealistic.
 
Tsuga C: At last, you're catching on! Bless you! Bring it, baby, bring it!
 
Mary Kirby: I, for one, am hoping we have giant, glowing swords that shoot lightning bolts and baby hummingbirds upon impact.
 
Tsuga C: Horse puckey! Realistic weapons and armor would make the more insipid elements that tend to creep into fantasy stories and games that much more out of place. Zit popping 12 year-olds might not care about such silly and incongruous elements, but are they the target demographic? I would hope not.

Give me the realistic arms and panoplies and better animations (plus polearms!) and I'll be willing to generally keep quiet about the weapon damage issue. Regarding animations, the ol' Dance of Death may have caused some problems, but it did make combat in NWN1 better to look at for extended periods of time.
 
Snoteye: I don't want realistic armor. It's so boring. NWN 1.69 includes historically accurate armor and I die a little bit everytime I see somebody use it. However, I do not want horned viking helmets or GUNSWORDS either.
 
Mary Kirby: Now I totally want a helmet that has gunswords for horns.
 
Tsuga C: GAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! :x
 
Mary Kirby: Also, it should glow.
 
Tsuga C: *develops serious facial tick and alternately mutters/shouts like Tourette's Syndrome*

The DA series is supposed to be darker, more mature, and more serious than the ludicrous, cutsey-pie Japanese cRPG crap.  Asinine arms and panoplies don't help the cause, EaWare. 

[joriandrake]

don't insult the japanese games/style, most of those are better than many of the "western crap"

[Giant ambush beetle]

@ Tsuga:



That discussion made me laugh and cry at the same time, it clearly indicates what kind of weaponry we're going to get,...but having a discussion about it is useless, I'll stick to ''lets wait and see''.

However, I am already hoping for mods making weapons more realistic....

[Tsuga C]

The Woldan wrote...

However, I am already hoping for mods making weapons more realistic....

If you find one that looks professional and doesn't cause problems with any of the expansions/DLC, please do send me a PM about it.  

[Gegenlicht]

Getting back on the hammer bit since my original response apparently never made it through.



Blunt hammer's fine against an unarmoured target, useless against an opponent in tough but not stiff armour such as chain mail with the appropriate padding underneath as the impact is deflected all over and at best okay against advanced steel plate. Of course the development on plate mail was constant, but to really shake someone's vital organs or whatever you'd need to transmit the force through the armour into the body. Which is not only hampered by the protective garments in between (from padded cloth to leather with chain inserts for those parts where the plate is open, depending on when and where your plate mail's from) but also the sheer construction of plate mail.



In other words, it's bloody sturdy. Everything's rounded so for one you're unlikely to hit it at an ideal angle. The curved raven's beak style gets around that with its form. If the tip penetrates, the curve pulls the hammer into the opening, but a flat hammer surface is less likely to connect fully. Secondly, things like fluting, folds and ridges weren't ornamental, they stiffened and reinforced each piece. In other words, your hammer blow is unlikely to cause more than superficial dent if that. You're not hitting a tin can after all.



Of course, this stiffening of the armour did make it even more vulnerable to piercing. Which is why a medieval pope actually tried to get crossbows outlawed. With a crossbow, any peasant could endanger a knight with minimal training and effort, thereby endangering the entire feudal order. Then you get endlessly long pikes that pretty much put an end to charges leading the way, again pointy piercing weapons. There's a reason Wilhelm Tell didn't knock the apple off his son's head with a bleeding hammer (though it's a hilarious image to me).

[Gegenlicht]

Summary on topic:



I like realism. Because I know which way the rabbit runs and I find it hard to suppress that knowledge when I see the design of a Darkspawn sword with two or three natural breaking points. Fantasy is fine and dandy, but unless Thedas is governed by physics very different from those over here (and if so I'd like to get a Codex Entry on that), mundane things must still exist in the realm of the believable.



I don't need realism, but fantastic realism would be nice. Someone up there mentioned glass armour and all I can say is GTFO. It's obviously not normal glass unless glass in that world is different from glass in ours. And if it's magical, wouldn't the maker have gotten more bang for the buck enchanting armour that already offered a modicum of mundane protection rather than using glass? Conversely, DA's Dragonscale and Drakeskin armours are fantastically realistic in concept. Dragons have very tough hides, so they make for good yet comparatively light and flexible armour. It's a no-brainer. Well, so is glass armour, just in a different way. Hur hur hur.



Even in fantasy, there is the sensible and the ridiculously stupid.

[Kileyan]

I like fantasy more than realism.



One of my favorite character in fantasy was a ranger type guy. Instead of using a sword, his combat in the books was fantastically described. His chosen weapon was 6 foot long combat staff. He was an interesting whirling combat machine of parries and crushing. I really do not care if history ever said staff was a good weapon, I don't care if re-enactment societies have proven the staff wasn't a realistic weapon.



Yes, you can blame D&D if you want. I also don't mind huge double bladed axes. I really don't mind. They to me are the iconic weapons of the stout dwarves. If I really have to think too hard on it, I suppose they can use those weapons well because of their physiology. I like it, if the alternative is the tiny hatchet headed looking axe weapons of history.



Anyways thumbs down to realism. Just find a nice mix, no 8 foot tall 2 foot wide swords of Final Fantasy.

[grregg]

I'd rather have realism if for no other reason than it requires less explanations. Call me lazy, but somehow I see little value in re-learning physics (and what not) simply for the purpose of playing a game. If they stick to established canon of weapon technology, engineering, anatomy and so on, I'd appreciate it.



Having said that I do realize that game designers have a burning desire to improve on reality, so I have little hope that DA2 will be different.

[Kileyan]

grregg wrote...

I'd rather have realism if for no other reason than it requires less explanations. Call me lazy, but somehow I see little value in re-learning physics

You are an alien creature to me. Do you really see a spiky sword or a double headed heavy axe, and actually have to pause the game, look for codexes, or relearn physics to appreciate a big double bladed notched dwarven war ax?

C'mon its fantasy, everyones threshold is different I guess. I dislike final fantasy but can live with big dwarven axes. Blah, everyone has a line that can't be cross.

Modifié par Kileyan, 05 août 2010 - 02:00 .

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Creating a believable fantasy, sci-fi or any kind of fiction is quite akin to cooking for me. You have the base of the dish that you flavor with fictional elements. It up to personal opinion as to preference to the "spice" in the story but too much of certain elements can both ruin your story or any dish. The tricky part is nailing down how far it goes before any design or story elements begin to stand out too strongly.

For me, alarm bells go off in my head when I see a weapon that could not work in real life, because real life weapons have a long history of trial and error in combat. Does it mean weapons can't look "fantastic" in a fantasy setting? No, but it does mean it should be confined to at least a base, logical premise that can be built upon. Not all weapons are "tiny hatchet headed looking axe weapons of history."

There are some pretty impressive axes out there, and I'm not trying to pick on your opinions (which are totally valid) but a double headed axe is kind of a goofy weapon to me, it limits the user by minimizing the power a person can put into the swings and leaves them with just an awkward piece of junk that is long but lacks the range of a spear or even a longsword since it's balanced in the middle and has two tremendous heavy blades at each end which hurt the user from actually using the total length of the weapon for an advantage. The desire of a user of such a weapon to not hurt themselves by swinging it also limits angles of attack, making it a pretty predictable weapon to anticipate. Too much fantasy in my stew, it's just a bad idea and I can't take such a weapon seriously...but each to their own tastes, I just try never to use said weapons if they are in a game. It's only when I absolutely have to use these things to complete a game that it gets obnoxious.

The staff is a realistic weapon, I don't care what re-inactment society says otherwise. I've met a few martial arts instructors that were quite dangerous with a stick, whether a Japanese Jo or an Indonesian Kali stick. I have a few nice calcium deposits to prove it, lol. Sure you can't behead someone with a staff-type stick, run them through or disembowl them, but you can kill people, and very painfully. A six foot staff is a pretty realistic weapon. The only thing that would get me is if the character started doing backflips or was constantly spinning in circles during a fight and not flowing with the opponent's movements. Physics is an important spice in any dish and one that should never be tossed out. That would be like cooking Indian dishes without ginger/garlic paste or making Japanese food without soy.

 Too many crazy backflips, endless spinning attacks, jumping forty feet in the air without a trampoline or implausible acts of strength throw it off for me. That's one thing that annoys me about alot of JRPGs, they do everything over the top so when something "serious" happens I can't take it seriously. Oh really, a character died? Bring them back using some of that impossible magic which makes a dragon fly in from outer space and breathe fire on all your enemies! Oh...that's right, it would hurt the plot somehow, this is character motive for revenge so the hero has to be weak for this scene...somehow.

One scene in Dragon Age I thought was pretty goofy was when the warden, in a cutscene does a one-knee slide under a dragon and slices it's belly open with a greatsword. Seriously...I guess it could be a magically sharp blade but that thing would be splitting atoms if it was that sharp and you just swung it too hard. It starts to look comedicly bad when people ignore all laws of physics. Nothing is grounded then, my character might as well shoot flaming zombie kittens from his butt to vanquish his enemies at that point. His explanation to his comrades could just be "Oh it's a spell I picked up along the way."

This is getting long so...I'm not trashing anyone's opinions, all opinions are valid. But if people want a story to be taken seriously, even in the fantasy genre, they need to ground combat to "some degree" in reality.

Modifié par Ryllen Laerth Kriel, 05 août 2010 - 02:23 .

[grregg]

Kileyan wrote...

grregg wrote...

I'd rather have realism if for no other reason than it requires less explanations. Call me lazy, but somehow I see little value in re-learning physics

You are an alien creature to me. Do you really see a spiky sword or a double headed heavy axe, and actually have to pause the game, look for codexes, or relearn physics to appreciate a big double bladed notched dwarven war ax?

C'mon its fantasy, everyones threshold is different I guess. I dislike final fantasy but can live with big dwarven axes. Blah, everyone has a line that can't be cross.

First, of course I can live with double-bladed dwarven axes that weigh about half a ton. I played enough games to get thoroughly acquainted with those.

But, to answer your question, yes, I really like knowing how things work. So if I see a realistic weapon, I'll assume that it works like its real world counterpart and I'll move on. But seeing some weird contraption that my (however limited) knowledge of physics balks at does give me a pause.

To use a comparison in a domain somewhat closer to our every day experience, imagine that someone makes a game about cars. And the designer decides "You know what? The cars will look so much better with 7 wheels on them! And it'll be more fun if they can instantly accelerate to the top speed."

Is it a game breaker? No, it isn't. The game might actually be fun, and if that's the case, I'll happily drive 7 wheeled rocket cars. But very likely it is an unnecessary ornament.

So in short, I am not so much against unrealistic weaponry (and other stuff) as I just don't see much value in it. If BioWare so desires, let them implement swords that in real life would give an ogre a tennis elbow. If nothing else, they're good for a chuckle or two.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

I don't know, a car that can instantly accelerate to top speed would be a deal breaker for me if it was a racing game. 

[Blumbum]

joriandrake wrote...

don't insult the japanese games/style, most of those are better than many of the "western crap"

Please never reproduce. Thanks.

[Novadove]

the best answer to this post is this:



provide a sheath where no other game does

[joriandrake]

Blumbum wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

don't insult the japanese games/style, most of those are better than many of the "western crap"

Please never reproduce. Thanks.

you are a terrible, hateful person

[Jarigan]

Hmm, it seems so many of these people yearning for weapons that look more like medieval European weapons seem to forget that in this fantasy setting there's not only magic, that can infuse armor and weapons making them not as heavy, or sharper. Magic can also make your average guy extremely strong or a strong guy into Hulk. 
There are also several different materials that do not exist on earth. With armor that can be made thicker and more resilient you also need heavier weapons to put a dent in them.
Realism is all fine but unless you want to spend your game zoomed in to actually see that the hero is fighting with a sword and not just your average stick I definitely prefer a fantasy weapon that sticks out and looks cool even if you're zoomed out. Of course you can go too far and WoW-sized weapons wouldn't fit in DA. 
Your basic sword that you pick up initially doesn't look all that much over the top IMHO. That later ones don't look realistic (when you're using medieval Europe as the norm) fits just fine into the setting of DA with many of them being super swords infused with tons of magic.

[0rz0]

I don't mind them looking fantasy type, but I do mind some being just plain ugly. And it's not even necessarily bad design, I could see how concept art for them would look great. Just when you're in the game and holding a pointy metal slab for a sword or a rib on a hilt as a dagger...



I like my weapons sharp and deadly looking. I'm not really sure what could fix it, maybe less mapping on them. Or maybe take normal/medieval designs and work forward from those.

[Khavos]

Hey, at least the absurd combat animations make sense with absurd weapons, right?



And I'd expert more ridiculousness, not less, with DA2. They don't keep shouting, "Fight like a Spartan!" like they just saw 300 for nothing.

[joriandrake]

Khavos wrote...

Hey, at least the absurd combat animations make sense with absurd weapons, right?

And I'd expert more ridiculousness, not less, with DA2. They don't keep shouting, "Fight like a Spartan!" like they just saw 300 for nothing.

If we could have real working formations like phalanx it could even be called an improvement

[Horace the Well Meaning Hybrid]

I'd rather not have realistic weapons. If you have realistic weapons then swords would be useless against heavily armoured enemies.

[grregg]

Jarigan wrote...

(...)

Realism is all fine but unless you want to spend your game zoomed in to actually see that the hero is fighting with a sword and not just your average stick I definitely prefer a fantasy weapon that sticks out and looks cool even if you're zoomed out. Of course you can go too far and WoW-sized weapons wouldn't fit in DA.

(...)

I think where we differ is whether the over-sized weapons look cooler. To me they look rather hilarious, which by the way would be perfect in something like Team Fortress 2 or Serious Sam, that is in games that don't take themselves too seriously.

Dragon Age seems to be rather solemn affair and the sight of its supersized weaponry is quite hilarious. To give an example, imagine watching a medical show with a bunch of docs trying to save someone's life and seeing that all the medical implements they use are twice their usual size. Or, I don't know, a basketball game with the ball quite a bit larger than in real life.

I guess it is a matter of personal preference and, as I said before, not a deal breaker for me, but it is a bit of unintended (I think) and therefore jarring hilarity.

[joriandrake]

grregg wrote...

Jarigan wrote...

(...)

Realism is all fine but unless you want to spend your game zoomed in to actually see that the hero is fighting with a sword and not just your average stick I definitely prefer a fantasy weapon that sticks out and looks cool even if you're zoomed out. Of course you can go too far and WoW-sized weapons wouldn't fit in DA.

(...)

I think where we differ is whether the over-sized weapons look cooler. To me they look rather hilarious, which by the way would be perfect in something like Team Fortress 2 or Serious Sam, that is in games that don't take themselves too seriously.

Dragon Age seems to be rather solemn affair and the sight of its supersized weaponry is quite hilarious. To give an example, imagine watching a medical show with a bunch of docs trying to save someone's life and seeing that all the medical implements they use are twice their usual size. Or, I don't know, a basketball game with the ball quite a bit larger than in real life.

I guess it is a matter of personal preference and, as I said before, not a deal breaker for me, but it is a bit of unintended (I think) and therefore jarring hilarity.

this is a proper sword




this is also a proper sword




Why? Because DA is fantasy genre, with fantasy materials, we have no clue how heavy some metals are which are made into armor and weapons, how sharp blades forged out of them might be, or how their handling is. There might be metals which are so light that you can easily foge swords that look like two-handed but are made for one-handed use

even real claymore and bastard swords look sometimes unrealistic huge, and as pointed out before with a prussian dagger as example, there exist a lot of weapons what if you would see first you would think they are ahistorical and fake, and these only in european culture and history, lets not even start to add to it african/middle-east/indian, and far-east weaponry




In my opinion anime weapons can be compared much more easier to fantasy ones than real ones, exactly because the long history of fantasy in Japan the weapons there are more refined than any western fantasy weapon you can come up with in a few months, and let me say that it is not a real fantasy weapon if its just a longsword with small changes on it, a proper weapon that can be called a fantasy one is one that doesn't exist in RL

Modifié par joriandrake, 05 août 2010 - 06:04 .