73 réponses à ce sujet

[Thorsson64]

I've been meaning to put together something on this for a long time, so that I can refer to it at need.

First off let me set some ground rules. This is not about roleplaying, because everyone has their own ideas about what is OK, e.g. yesterday I saw a roleplaying build (according to the author) that mixed Shadow Thief of Amn and Harper's Agent classes. This is merely about making a character that is good mechanically.

Secondly, it's not going to give specific advice, not about the Campaigns (because it is impossible to do so without being a spoiler), but rather say how things work in general, nor for any module or PW. PWs are growing increasingly different to the base rules, and you will need to factor in these differences. However most of the advice I give here will be in a generic way that is applicable to most, if not all, of them.

Thirdly, I am not going to go into great detail where the information is available on the Wiki, which I suggest everyone bookmarks. And fourthly, I'm going to ignore Kaedrin's Pack as that adds too many classes to cover. So let's kick this off:

• Rule 1: plan ahead. Even if you might change something later, failure to plan is likely to see you miss key Feats or Skills necessary to make your concept work. A good example is Arcane Archer, which won't be available if you didn't choose Elf (or Half-Elf) at creation.
• Pure class builds are always inferior to a good build that mixes classes, even if it's only a 1 level 'splash'. There are several reasons for this:

• The Practiced Spellcaster bug, which means that a second class can get you a higher DC;
• That the last normal Epic Feat comes at level 29, and few classes get a free Feat at level 30; but
• Mostly, that other classes open up abilities and skills the original class does not offer.

• There are two types of classes: Base and Prestige. Base classes can be taken at any time, providing you meet the aligment restrictions. However just mixing them willy nilly is likely to end in an XP Penalty. There are ways to mitigate against this:

• Choose a Race that has one of the classes as a Favored class (and that includes Human, which takes its highest class as favored); and/or
• Keeping the base classes within one step of each other, e.g. Ranger 11/Fighter 12 would not be getting an XP Penalty, no matter what the Race.

• Prestige classes do not cause an XP Penalty, however they are restricted to 10 levels and each one has a number of pre-requisites. Always check out what these are, and how you can meet them.
• The rough order of power in base classes by level 30 is as follows:

• Sorceror & Wizard
• Warlock
• Cleric & Favored Soul
• Bard & Druid
• Spirit Shaman
• Rogue (but see below)
• Monk
• Fighter, Swashbuckler & Ranger
• Paladin & Barbarian

• Hide in Plain Sight (HiPS for short) is an absolutely vital skill for any sneaker (e.g. Rogues and Assassins), because it allows you to land your sneak attack damage. You should always look to get it into a sneak build as soon as possible. Without it you are weaker than even a Fighter.
• In very early levels Fighters are very powerful - they can wear all the armors, use all the weapons, they get +1 to hit and a free Feat on the first two levels, but as time goes on they get overtaken, by just about every other class, with the exception of the other melee classes (Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger, Swashbuckler).
• Barbarians are seen as very weak - most of their best abilities don't come until late, and they lose out on a lot to get them. Paladins are rarely taken beyond 5 levels - their best abilities come early on. Swashbuckler is usually taken to level 3, for the same reason.
• Ranger gets free Feats all the way to level 21, where it not only gets a Free Feat at the top of its combat chain, but also access to the Bane of Enemies Feat. It also gets good access to skills, unlike Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin.
• Monk also gets free Feats all the way up, but it gets a lot with just one level, so Monk is probably the most popular base class splash.
• Spirit Shaman is generally a weak version of Druid, simply because Druid uses only Wisdom for Spells (and that has a nice synergy with Monk), while Spirit Shaman needs both Charisma & Wisdom (you can ignore the latter on some builds, but that loses the Monk synergy).
• Druids are generally not as strong as Clerics/Favored Souls because their buffs are more defensive and less offensive, and other casters can protect themselves from the Druids Spells.
• Bards are an interesting and powerful class, but they fall short of the sheer power of the top two groups.
• Clerics & Favored Souls are usually highly buffed melee warriors (who will easily outfight any Fighter), but they can also be played as Zen Archers and in the case of Clerics as offensive casters.
• At the very top of the tree are Sorcerors and Wizards who have access to the most powerful spells in the game. They can also make quite capable melee warriors with the Eldritch Knight Prestige class, when they are known as Gishes.
• Races also have their own hierarchy, but here things are complicated by the ECL rating. What this means is that the race is given an XP "handicap" in exchange for the additional powers at its disposal. Providing you can advance to level 30, it is usually advisable to use one of the more powerful Races and accept the penalty. The wiki has details of the Races, their additional powers, and their ECL Penalty (if any).
• Here is a quick list of some considerations:

• Three Races have Spell Resistance (SR). This can be overcome by powerful spellcasters, but it's a useful extra line of defense, and mediocre casters would have to stick to spells that ignore SR.
• Where a Race has an increase in the prime stat of its Favored class, this makes it especially useful, e.g. Sun Elf & Wizard, Earth Genasi & Fighter.
• Some Prestige classes can only be unlocked by certain Races, e.g. Dwarven Defender.
• Some Races get free Feats, e.g. Yuan Ti get Blind Fight & Alertness, which can be very useful, depending on what you're trying to achieve.

• Now let's talk about Ability Scores, also known as Stats. Each Base class has certain ability scores that it needs to be successful. On top of that they cannot ignore Con(stitution), because of its effect on Hit Points (HP), and Int(elligence), because it determines how many skill points you get (particularly important on low Skillpoint classes). Dex(terity) may also be important due to its effect on Armor class (AC). In addition, certain Feats need you to reach a certain score in the Stat. Make sure that your plan achieves these.
• It should also be noted that because of how Point Buy works, if you need to achieve scores above 14 (before Racial modifications) in more than one Stat, you generally want to take all those Stats to 15/16 before you take any to 17/18.
• That said, here's a list of what Stats are important to which base classes:

• Barbarian: Strength & Constitution
• Paladin: Strength & Charisma
• Fighter: Strength OR Dexterity (if you are going to take Weapon Finesse Feat)
• Ranger: Strength OR Dexterity (you need Wisdom score to cast Spells, but this can come via items)
• Swashbuckler: Dexterity & Intelligence (although the latter doesn't have to be that high you are getting extra benefit from it)
• Monk: Strength OR Dexterity (and even if you are not taking Weapon Finesse you cannot ignore Dexterity as Monks do not wear Armor), Wisdom. Monks suffer from Multiple Ability Dependency (MAD) because they also need a decent Con.
• Rogue: Dexterity & to a lesser extent Intelligence.
• Spirit Shaman: Charisma & either Wisdom, Strength or Dexterity.
• Druid: Wisdom
• Bard: Charisma, Strength OR Dexterity (generally Strength is superior)
• Cleric: Strength and Wisdom (and Charisma if going the Divine Might route)
• Favored Soul: Strength and Charisma
• Warlock: Charisma and Dexterity
• Wizard: Intelligence
• Sorceror: Charisma

That's it for this post. Futher posts will discuss Prestige classes in detail, achieving synergies and how to cover weaknesses. If others could refrain from posting in this thread until they are posted I would be grateful. If a moderator could fix the formatting I'd be even more grateful - I have no idea why it shifts to the right every time I create a new bullet.

Modifié par Thorsson64, 06 mars 2015 - 07:36 .

[Thorsson64]

Let's first talk about what certain levels bring you from base classes:

• Barbarian - As already noted level 17 gets you Tireless Rage, if you're going more than 1 level you have to get at least there.
• Bard - Either minimum levels to open RDD or AA PrCs, or 8 for Inspire Courage +2; 14/15/16 all get useful additions, including strengthening the Curse Song Feat which is very worthwhile at this level; 21 allows Song/Hymn of Requiem Feats.
• Cleric - The first key here is getting Extended Divine Power, which requires 4th level spells. This requires 7 Casting Levels (CL). CL17 gets you level 9 spells.
• Druid - Similar to Cleric except that there's no big intermediate spell - CL17 is really a minimum target. Generally go for a high CL, to get a high DC. Wild Shape is not so good in NWN2, but it also needs plenty of Druid levels.
• Favored Soul - Spontaneous Casters are always a level behind their "memorising" counterparts, so CL8, CL18 are the targets there. However FS gets a nice Damage Reduction at level 20, which makes reaching that level highly desirable.
• Fighter - 1 level gets you all the Proficiencies you need; 8 levels allows you to get Epic Weapon Focus, 12 levels gets Epic Weapon Specialization. Never finish on an odd level unless you absolutely have to.
• Monk - 1 level gets you Improved Unarmed, the ability to add Wisdom to AC, and Flurry. 3 levels gets you a speed boost. 11 levels gets you Greater Flurry. 13 gets you Spell Resistance (not great of itself, but you can take Epic SR which stacks with Racial SR) and Blazing Aura Feat, 16 makes your Fists Adamantine. Levels 19 & 20 also get decent free Feats. Not much point going beyond that.
• Paladin - Usually taken to get Divine Might and/or Divine Shield (plus boost to Saves), which means level 4 for one, or level 5 for two.
• Ranger - Rangers get Combat Style Feats at levels 2, 6, 11 & 21. 21 also allows you to take Bane of Enemies. Other stopping points, level 13 Camouflage (fast movement outdoors). Level 17 HiPS (Outdoors) is not generally a good place to stop - cheaper to get SD, or take it to 21.
• Rogue - Levels 10, 13, 16, 19 get free Feats. 16 is seen as an optimal point because it loses only 4 BAB and gets all the Feats you need for Epic Precision and Epic Dodge.
• Sorceror - CL 18 to cast all the spells.
• Spirit Shaman - same spell list as Druid, but doesn't have the synergy with Monk or the opportunity for such high DCs, so seen as weaker. There is a bug/exploit with SS, but many PWs ban/prevent the exploit.
• Swashbuckler - As noted previously generally taken to level 3 for Insightful Strike (with free Weapon Finesses at level 1).
• Warlock - A class that wants lots of levels - both to get all the (limited number) Invocations, to allow you to bypass SR and to strengthen Eldritch Blast. Not much on the PrC fron either, so it mostly has to come from the base class.
• Wizard - Like other casters it's all about CL. Generally Wizards want lots of caster levels for spell DC, but they can come from PrCs.

Now let's discuss optimal levels for Prestige classes:

• Arcane Archer - 9 levels gets Enhance Arrow +5. Level 10 gets nothing worthwhile.
• Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep (ASoC) - Generally take all 10 levels as Improved Quicken is very useful for Sorceror/Wizard.
• Arcane Trickster - Another one where there's little reason to stop short of all 10 levels.
• Assassin - 8 levels gets you HiPS. 9 gets you Extended Improved Invisibility and an extra d6 of Sneak Attack but loses 1 BAB - generally a good trade=off.
• Blackguard - Usually taken to get Divine Might and/or Divine Shield (plus boost to Saves), which means level 3 for one, or level 4 for two.
• Divine Champion - every even level gets you +1 to Saves and a free Feat, so don't stop on an odd level.
• Doomguide - frankly not a lot of use. Easier just to smash undead as a Cleric.
• Duelist - generally taken to get the AC bonus, so you want a few levels - 5, 6 & 10 are the best places to stop.
• Dwarven Defender - Improved Defense is the main reason for taking DD, so generally you stop at 7 & 10.
• Eldritch Knight - The reason to take this class is to make a Gish, so you want 10 levels.
• Frenzied Beserker - Supreme Cleave at level 2 is nice against weak opponents, but the normal stopping point is level 5 for Enhanced Power Attack. Going to 10 for Supreme Power Attack is rarely worth it as Frenzy Strength does not stack with other sources.
• Harper Agent - rarely worth taking, it has a lot of requirements, is only 5 levels, and has Medium BAB progression.
• Hellfire Warlock - the only PrC that improves a Warlocks. It's only 3 levels, but a bug means that it can be very effective if you have immunity to the Con damage.
• Invisible Blade - generally taken to get the AC bonus, so you take as many levels (up to the 5) as the AC you can get.
• Neverwinter Nine - generally taken to 3 for Frantic Reactions.
• Pale Master - 1 level gets you 2 AC for nothing. Beyond that you get extra defense at levels 4, 7, 8 & 10, but you lose CL at every even level. It's an interesting trade off.
• Red Dragon Disciple (RDD) - seen by many as the most powerful class in the game, but as you need Bard or Sorceror to take it, and it doesn't advance spellcasting, I do not agree. What it does do is make strength based "warriors" a lot nicer. Usually people take 4 or 10 levels - 4 gets you +4 to Str and +2 AC while only losing 1 BAB. 10 gets you all the bonuses, but loses 3 BAB, and makes it harder to fit in other PrCs.
• Red Wizard of Thay (RWoT) - If you're going to take this you want all 10 levels.
• Sacred Fist - Usually all 10 levels are taken as you only lose 2 CL, it stacks with Monk in several ways, and it is high BAB, plus you get Sacred Flames at the levels you lose CL.
• Shadow Thief of Amn - Generally 4 levels are taken, as you ghet extra Feats at 2 & 4, plus you only lose 1 BAB.
• Shadowdancer - 1 level gets you HiPS and that's generally where people leave it. 5 levels gets you Defensive Roll, which can allow a Monk to get Epic Dodge.
• Stormlord - usually no reason to take anything other than 10 levels as you get full spellcasting progression and extra goodies.
• Warpriest - Generally not a good PrC, as you only get Spellcasting progression on even levels.
• Weapon Master - the "n00b's favourite". Pretty much no point in going beyond level 7 (Ki Critical), but without Fighter (or DC) to get all the pre-requisites (due to the extra Feats) they're a heavy burden and the payoff isn't generally that good.

Regarding Caster Level. We now know that Dispel checks work against Character Level, not Caster. Therefore you only need as much as is required for spell duration.

Modifié par Thorsson64, 11 octobre 2015 - 08:37 .

[The Fred]

This is all pretty handy info. One or two things I'd add, though:

Pure class builds are always inferior to a good build that mixes classes, even if it's only a 1 level 'splash'

This is true, but a pure build will usually at least be decent-ish; you're less likely to shoot yourself in the foot with a pure build than you are with a mixed up one. Though multi-classing opens up the best options, it also opens up a lot of really bad options.

Cleric - The first key here is getting Extended Divine Power, which requires 4th level spells. This requires 7 Casting Levels (CL). CL17 gets you level 9 spells. CL25 means you can't be (Greater) Dispelled. Note that you can use Practiced Spellcaster Feat to make up 4 of those levels.

A single level of Cleric is also good for domain feats (provided you take domains like Luck or Water) and Turn Undead which allows divine feats.

[Thorsson64]

I did ask everyone to refrain from posting until I'd finished, but you just couldn't resist, could you?

1. Find me a level 30 pure class build that I can't easily beat with a second class.

2. The problem with the Cleric 1 level splash is that it takes 1 of your 4 class options - and a couple of limited free feats is generally only worth having on poor builds. OK it works occasionally to a limited extent (on Epic Divine Might builds specifically), but I'm trying to avoid too much build-specific information, preferring to give an overview of the principles of making a solid build (and in the example given it isn't anything to do with the Domains).

Modifié par Thorsson64, 01 août 2010 - 06:44 .

[The Fred]

Oh sorry, I missed that bit.
My apologies.

[Thorsson64]

Here are some general principles of Synergy.

Synergy based around Ability Scores:

• Wisdom - Cleric & Druid (and Ranger, Paladin) require Wisdom to cast spells and get spell DCs. Monks use Wisdom for AC & Stunning Fist DC. Wisdom also boosts your AB if you take the Zen Archery Feat. Also good for Detection skills (Spot/Listen) and Will Saves. Gray Orcs, Aasimar & Deep Gnomes get boosts to Wisdom.
• Intelligence - Always gets you more skillpoints. Wizards use it for casting; Rogues use it to boost certain skills like Disable Device; Assassins get a boost to their Death Attack DC; Invisible Blades & Duellists get a boost to AC; Swashbucklers use it for Damage; and any class can use it for Combat Insight (Damage) and Combat Expertise (AC, at the cost of AB - good for casters). Sun Elves, Drow, Yuan Ti, Tieflings & Air Genasi get boosts to Intelligence.
• Dexterity - Can boost AB (for Ranged Attack and if you take the Weapon Finesse Feat) and AC (especially if you are wearing Light or no Armor). Need high Dexterity for Two Weapon Fighting (TWF) Feats unless a Ranger wearing Light Armor. Also good for Sneak Skills and Reflex Saves. Halflings, Tieflings, Deep Gnomes, Drow, Yuan Ti, Air Genasi, Moon Elf, Wood Elf, Wild Elf, get boosts to Dexterity.
• Charisma - Sorcerors, Bards, Warlocks, Paladins, Favored Souls & Spirit Shaman use it to cast spells and/or increase their DC; BG, Paladin, Warlocks use it to boost Saves; Paladin, BG & Cleric can use it to boost AC (Divine Shield) or Damage (Divine Might); it boosts the UMD Skill. Aasimar, Drow, Yuan Ti get boosts to Charisma.
• Strength - Strength determines AB & damage. It's one of the few forms of damage that criticals. It determines how much you can carry. It's needed to get Epic Divine Might (EDM). Gray Orcs, Half Orcs, Earth Genasi, Wood Elf, get boosts to Strength.
• Constitution - Determines HP; is needed for Epic Damage Resistance; is used for Fortitude Saves; determines length of Rages & Frenzies. Dwarves, Earth Genasi, Rock Gnome, get boosts to Con.

N.B. I don't mention Fire or Water Genasi because they are not worth the ECL Penalty.

Synergy based around classes (examples):

• Wizard and Sorceror with ASoC (particularly strong with Sorc due to all metamagic being available as needed), Pale Master, Eldritch Knight, RWoT (Human Wizard only).
• Cleric, Favored Soul & Druid with Sacred Fist, Stormlord (SL).
• Weapon Master with RDD (due to Strength damage and criticals).
• Rogue with SD or Assassin (due to HiPS guaranteeing Sneak Attack damage).
• Any Archery build with HiPS (due to HiPS leaving the opponent flatfooted meaning that Manyshot will still hit).
• Monk & Sacred Fist, as SF abilities stack with Monk and continue fist damage progression.
• Monk & Stormlord because both have abilities that improve Shuriken (Monk - Flurry, they are SL weapons).
• Blackguard/Cleric/Fighter/Paladin/Dwarven Defender & anything that needs Heavy Armor/Shield Proficency.

Synergy based around Races (other than ability scores):

• Throwing builds and Halflings
• Sneak builds and Small Races, Duergar, Tiefling.
• "Spotter" builds and Elves (Keen Senses + bonus to Listen/Spot), although Aasimar, small Races, and Yuan Ti (free Alertness) also have advantages.
• Gray Orc and Monk. Nevewinter Nine, Barbarian (etc.) for Speed boosts.
• Elf & Gray Orc as Archers - free Longbow Proficiency.

The attentive will have noticed that certain combinations have a natural affinity, e.g. Blackguard with Sorceror enables the use of Armor & Shields, improves Saves and allows Divine Shield to be taken.

One other synergy that is worth mentioning here relates to Skills. Taking even one level in a class enables that class's skills to be taken at full progression. Note however that these will cost you 2 points a go unless you take the Able Learner Feat, which is why this is a very popular pick.

Modifié par Thorsson64, 01 août 2010 - 07:27 .

[Thorsson64]

Finally, I shall give a few practical examples.

The most popular build on the nwndb is the Fighter 12/Bard 1/RDD 10/Weapon Master 7 build. It should be clear from the notes about the classes that the best benefits of Fighter, RDD & WM have all been realised in this build. This is rounded out by what the single level of Bard adds - Inspire Courage (so that no AB is lost), and access to several important skills, including Tumble (for more AC), Spellcraft (for better Saves), and Use Magic Device (UMD). UMD allows use of gear meant for other classes, such as Monk Boots. No other combination of these classes would achieve quite the same synergy. Any Race with Favored class Fighter or Bard will not get an XP Penalty. The usual pick is Earth Genasi for an extra boost to Strength.

Another popular class combination is Druid/Monk/Sacred Fist. The aim in such a build is to maximise Wisdom, which helps both Spell DC and Armor class (not to mention Spot/Listen to help against Sneakers). This is boosted by the Owl's Insight Spell (+12 to Wisdom). That being the case you only need 1 Monk level, all 10 SF and the rest Druid. However you can fit in a 4th class, such as Fighter or Shadowdancer, e.g. Druid 18/Monk 1/Fighter 1/Sacred Fist 10. Note that such a build with need to be done with Human to avoid an XP Penalty.

The most popular build on the nwndb is GT74's Jack of Clubs, a Bard 23/RDD 4/Cleric 1/Blackguard 2. Bard 23 gets all the Bard goodies and taking it to 23 adds on an Epic Feat. RDD 4 was mentioned earlier as being a good spot to stop, and in this case makes it wasy to get high Strength and Charisma for Epic Divine Might. The Cleric 1/Blackguard 2 is a clever trick - the 1 level of Cleric gets you Turn Undead (and the two free Domain Feats) for the Divine Feats, the two levels of Blackguard gets you the boost to Saves, but also allows you to take a second Divine Feat.

My Elder Blade build, Wizard 12/Swashbuckler 3/Eldritch Knight 10/Invisible Blade 5 gets to use Intelligence for Spellcasting, Damage, and Armor class. In addition it has CL 25 and still manages a reasonable AB. If you wanted more AB and weren't afraid of being Dispelled you could take 4 less Wizard and 4 more Swashbuckler to get 26 BAB and six attacks per hand.

A good Sneak build is Rogue 16/Fighter 8/SD 1/Invisible Blade 5 with high Dex and decent Int. Again all the class levels have been discussed earlier, as well as the importance of SD to a Rogue. The Fighter (8 for EWF) levels add to the (B)AB meaning more hits, and IB adds both (B)AB and AC, plus the Bleed Attack, which will work against everything if you take Epic Precision from Rogue.

Hopefully these builds will provide the inspiration to make a classic build of your own.

Modifié par Thorsson64, 02 août 2010 - 07:06 .

[Thorsson64]

Some building "Rules".

As everyone knows, there are always exceptions, but here's a view rules to guide you until you really know what you're doing:

• Give "Battle" Clerics 14-16 in Wisdom and pump Strength (and Charisma if you're going for an EDM character).
• Give all specialist casters the Spellcasting Prodigy Feat at level one and to make sure your CL and DC are high,  boost your primary stat and don't take many non-casting levels.
• Luck of Heroes is a good Feat for almost all other builds, unless you need that level 1 Feat slot to achieve your build.
• Don't take the Dodge & Mobility as Feats (max your Tumble skill instead) unless you need them to open a PrC.
• Don't take the Improved Critical Feat if you have the Keen Weapon/ Weapon of Impact Spells, or a Keen Weapon.
• The following Feats are sub-optimal where they don't make PrCs available: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Overwhelming Critical (they only work against weak opponents or are just not worth the investment).
• Some Feats are just a waste of time: Improved Initiative, Daylight Adaption, arguably Circle Kick (has an issue around switching target).
• (Improved) Combat Expertise is very useful on Casters who don't need AB, especially if they already have high AC, or additional defences such as Mirror Image or Displacement).
• HiPS is a useful addition to any melee/ranged build that doesn't have a (very) high AB, and any build that wants to lose its target status (that's just about everything). If you don't know what 4th class to add, consider 1 level of SD.
• Don't forget skills - Tumble, Spellcraft, UMD, Spot are useful on almost every build.
• Don't buy one ability at 18 and leave another at 14 if you need them both to be 18+ eventually - better to get 16 & 16 and use the 2 points spare on something else.
• If you're a combat class (i.e. you don't rely on magic for damage) make sure you have a decent AB (ideally that's mid 40s without HiPS and mid 30s with, but it can be lower on low magic worlds).
• As best you can, try to cover off both physical (through AC & HPs) and magical (through Immunities, SR, Saves & HPs) attacks.

That's enough for now. Feel free to comment.

[Adam024]

Would this build be pretty good?

Drow

Wizard (school of evocation) Level 10

Blackguard Level 3

Archane Scholar Level 7

Red Wizard Level 10

[The Fred]

Thorsson 64 said...

Blackguard - Usually taken to get Divine Might and/or Divine Shield (plus boost to Saves), which means level 3 for one, or level 4 for two.

If this is why you're taking 3 levels of Blackguard, wouldn't it be better (at least on a wizard) to take a level of Cleric instead and get two domain feats (such as Luck of Heroes, since you'll want Spellcasting Prodigy at L1, and maybe Evasion) to boot?

[Thorsson64]

The problem with Wizard & Blackguard is that Wizards use Intelligence, rather than the Charisma of Sorcerors. Wizards have to work a bit harder to get their AC. OTOH they have skillpoints to burn - it's much easier for a Wizard to get HiPS.



Generally it is better to go Wizard 7/ASoC 10 than vice versa. No Wizard free Feat is worth as much as Improved Quicken.

[Happycrow]

How to build an effective roleplaying character for nwn2
(Especially for PW use)

1.  Re-read everything Thorsson64 has written.
2.  Figure out the rules of the environment in which you're going to be playing.  Is this a server/game where people put +5 protective items in the "noob charity box?"  Or a world in which the characters positively drool over the idea of obtaining a +1 item?
3.  Re-read Thorsson's commentary on ability scores and synergies specifically keeping #2 in mind.  If you will be playing in a low-magic environment (as many if not most PWs are), you will not necessarily be able to rely on items.

Think about your basic character concept.  Not merely a background story (that can come later) -- think about it in the following terms:

A.  What is the character's primary interaction intended to be vis-a-vis the world and other players?  A combatant?  A diplomat or merchant?  A crafter?  Do you intend to kick butt, or to provide some service, skill, or social goodie that's so fantastic that people will be falling all over themselves for the chance to kick butt for you?

B.  Figure out the stats which make this character who he or she is.  Pay careful attention to your non-essential statistics -- is your character a combat god who gets into trouble everywhere he or she goes because folks just plain don't like him, and will possibly wind up in jail even though he's innocent, because he talks smack to the judge on general principles?  If so, that charisma dump-stat might make sense.  Is said warrior a guy with big dreams who wants to found something and attract followers?  Better not start off with a 6 or 8 charisma.

Similarly, are you an absent-minded professor whose a physical wreck, conjures up fantastic concepts, many of which pose a danger to the health and well-being of everyone near you?  (nota bene:  gnomes are infamous for this)  You might take poor physical stats.  You MIGHT even do that AND dump-stat your WIS, in which case bad-guys might just talk you into developing Thermonuclear Waffles which you never dreamed would be used on the good-guys.

In other words, make sure your character's most vital statistics reflect the personality you intend to play.
If your character is a skill-monkey or secondary combatant (at best), is said character particularly good at smithing, haggling, or spotting when the party's being followed?  Pay attention to the stats which support the skills in question:  if other characters who aren't made to fulfill your role do just as well as you do because their stats provide the skill ratings you've bought into (but not enough), AND they kick butt/heal the injured/ make huge amounts of cash haggling.... your character will be relatively ineffective.

C.  If your character has divine connections, pick domain carefully, in such a manner that it supports how the character is going to behave.  Example:  Sylvanus in FR grants plant, animal, and water (among others).  If you want to protect people by casting barkskin, heal people, preach in public about the woods, and then smash bad guys with Hammer of the Gods and Ice Storm.... then Sylvanus is a great choice.  But... if you want to be less combat-oriented and rather be the guy who can go anywhere, anytime, you might pick Mielikki, whose domains include both plant and travel (making you a quick mover on the overland map, particularly if you've paid attention to what Thorsson's said about synergies and multi-classed characters.

D.  Pick race and feats.  Here's where things start to differ from Thorsson64's assessments.  If you're playing in a world where heroic dwarves fight off the threats of the undead and underdark.... maybe picking a drow or Grey Orc is just asking to be shot or axed on sight -- that's would be an appropriate response for many of the other characters in said settling.

Specifically with feats, here's where lower levels or fewer magic items makes selection important.  You can make a character who's a fantastic swordsman on a world where level 10 is "OMG powerful," and have a 14 parry and Combat Expertise (note that these are incompatible modes which cannot be selected at the same time!) at level 1 or 2 without being a munchkin at all.  Your fighter who's got a reputation as a brawler might actually take Improved Unarmed Attack to support that, even though it won't be relevant 99% of your play time -- but it'll make a huge difference the time it IS relevant and you can justify an unusual action (like tossing an armed guy out a window with your bare hands) because you've paid the price of entry by taking the relevant feat.

Similarly, consider skill feats.  Either the Sylvanus worshipper, or the Mielikkian might choose "self-sufficient," as +2 to survival and heal might be a great choice in an environment where a character's ability to track makes or breaks an adventure.  (Again, especially at low levels).  Similarly, glib merchants benefit not just from Skill Focus: Appraise, but also Negotiator and other feats....

...which support your skills, which are in turn supported by your stats, which in turn supports the concept you want to play.  Note Thorsson64's synergies at play, and realize that very often, making a mechanically-effective character isn't simply power-gaming -- it's what lets you do what you want to do.

[nicethugbert]

Just like to add Character Building Links. I especially like Kreslacks humorous presentation.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 04 août 2010 - 02:25 .

[MANoob]

A decent guide Thorsson, but what's the hell with Warlock being #3 most powerful base class?

[WyrinDnjargo]

curious as to why you think Circle Kick is a wasted feat? Free extra attack at no cost? Only downside is implementation as it changes the target of your attacks in game sometimes, but that's controllable, no.?

[Haplose]

I'm not entirely sure how it works in NWN2. But in NWN1 this feat was terribly BAD. Suicidal even.
Sure you may re-select your previous target after Circle Kick switches it. This way you give up the remaining attacks for this round and wait till the beginning of the next round... when after first successfull attack Circle Kick switches the target again...

It's maybe not bad if you have 1 Attack per round. 2 and more and it starts to hurt. Considering that Monks start with Flurry, they can always have 2+ attacks per round...


PS Very nice guide, Thorsson. Maybe it could get stickied?

Too bad Feint didn't get even a slightest mention I relize HiPS is normally superior, but Feint can be very nice too... maybe less so for serious PvP, but still...

I also like Happycrows' "Appendix"

Modifié par Haplose, 04 août 2010 - 10:18 .

[MANoob]

I would also like to add something myself. In my oppinion it is very important to understand that character building is all about trade-offs. This idea seems really simple, but practice shows that many builders do not understand it. By getting something you are allways not getting something else. By taking a feat you lose an opportunity to take another feat instead. By multiclassing you lose some benefits of your base class.

For example: You want to build a wizard. You start with wizard 30. Then you think about adding ASoC, let's say Wizard 20/ASoC 10. What do you get and what do you lose? You obviously lose 3 epic bonus feats, 1 reflex and 1 fortitude save as well as your familiar levels. You also lose 2 non epic feats to get junk like SF(Spellcraft) and SF(Concentration) - you need it for ASoC. In return you get free Maximize, Quicken as well as Improved Empover, Improved Maximize and Improve Quicken. It this a good tradeoff (yes, it usually is)? Well, you are the builder and it's up to you to decide.

Some benefits can be measured (ab, ac etc), others are not so obvious and only experience can determine the usefulness of some features. It may vary depending on the build and its goals. But it's very important to understand what you are getting with each class, feat or skill. Those who do not think about it often end up with melee builds that have lower ab, ac and dmg than joe average and a few gimmick features that do not really make up for it.

Modifié par MANoob, 04 août 2010 - 05:07 .

[The Fred]

That's true.



The biggest thing for me though is not to cause actual harm to your build. A pure build of pretty much any class likely won't be amazing, but it'll beat the Fighter/Ranger/Cleric my sister once built and the 10-Intelligence (so no spells) Wizard IWD2 kept making me play for some reason (I think it was broken...).

[Thorsson64]

Character building is about trade offs, but the idea is to trade off things that aren't worth much for things that are. With ASoC it's pretty much a no-brainer for a Sorc, but as shown, for a Wizard there are considerations.

Anyway, I missed out one other synergy: Feat Synergy. For instance the PrCs Shadowdancer, Duelist & Weapon Master all require Dodge & Mobility. Once you have taken one of these classes the "price" for the others reduces substantially. Another possibility is where a class gets a free feat that you need for another, e.g. taking EK gets you the free Feat: Skill Focus (Concentration), which is need to get ASoC (now I don't see this as a particularly good combination, but it's a clear example).

[MANoob]

Thorsson64 wrote...
Character building is about trade offs, but the idea is to trade off things that aren't worth much for things that are.

You're saying this "but" like I've meant something else .

I would also like to add some general building rules I personally find useful.

• Only multiclass when you really need it (to get some feat or access to a certain skill) and do it at the point when you need it
• Select feats in order of their usefulness. If you're qualifying for weapon master you first take weapon focus, then probably dodge, then combat expertise and then the rest. If you happen to have more feats available before you are going to get weapon master add some useful feats like blnd fight or weapon spec before dodge and other junk. If you're selecting persistant spell make sure you can persist something above 0 spell level allready. Your feats should help your leveling. So don't pick smth you have no use for currently unless you absolutely have to.
• Same goes for classes. You pick them in the order you need them. Example: with a rogue you ususally absolutely need shadowdancer as early as possible.
• Maximize your main powers. Arcanes need level 9 spells as fast as possible, anything that slows their caster progression is a huge drawback. Rogues need HIPS and sneak attack. Fighters need ab and damage. You should try to maximize that as fast as possible.
• If you have spare feats your build is probably not good enough

Examples of bad building should include:

• Mixing an arcane caster with too many (>1)  non-caster levels early on (unless it's EK in wich case I suppose you can lose a couple of caster levels).
• Getting divine feats on fs early - you're delaying your spell progression and divine feats are just plain bad early on (Exception - you're taking cleric for armor proficiency that is useful early and you are not planing to take any more levels of classes that can pick divine feats).
• getting HIPS late on a character with no source of damage other than sneak (unless it's a feinter) - how are you supposed to play that?

I'm sure you can think of other examples that fould fit this list.

Modifié par MANoob, 04 août 2010 - 09:48 .

[Thorsson64]

I'm going to take exception to your first bullet. Frequently you should take a second class as early as possible. The reason for this is often about skills - the second class gives access to ones the first didn't - but it can also be for other reasons, and you gave a fine example with Rogue/Shadowdancer. Other examples would include RDD - getting those stat boosts early is often necessary; and Pale Master - the first level gets you 2 free AC and opens up several skills. Equally I can find no reason for a Cleric to delay taking Stormlord, or a Sorceror to delay taking ASoC.

There can be another reason for getting the second (third/fourth) classes early - taking more base class later. For example, if your base class is Fighter you sometimes want to delay levels so bonus Feats can be used to get Epic Prowess, EWF, EWS.

OK, there are occasions when it is best to delay taking a second class, but these are the exception, rather than the rule.

[MANoob]

Thorsson64 wrote...

I'm going to take exception to your first bullet. Frequently you should take a second class as early as possible. ule.

I probably should have stated that this case applies mostly to using other base calsses, not PrCs (they usually improve your base class in a certain way, so mostly no point in delaying them). But for example: you're making some kind of sorc/pal/EK. You should take your paladin level at level 7 when you need it to qualify for EK. If you take it earlier you just slow down your spellcasting progression and it won't make you a decent fighter anyway. This all means you usually should focus on your base class strength.

Modifié par MANoob, 05 août 2010 - 08:28 .

[Thorsson64]

Even with base classes it's only a good general rule with Sorceror/Wizard/Warlock, and only then if you don't want EK or HiPS. Take the good old Bard/Fighter/RDD builds - your best bet is to take your Bard splash as early as possible. Another example might be one of the Kaze builds where you often keep Fighter and Monk in step to avoid an XP Penalty, but you would probably mix the levels anyway for other reasons (skills, Flurry, Monk Speed). Even an FS/Paladin doesn't want to wait too long for the first Paladin level, because that gives access to Heavy Armor.

[Happycrow]

I think the question is academic unless it's in the context of both a specific feat and the environment played in.  Some choices which are horrible in a vacuum make a lot of sense in a given context.

Example: Divine Feats being weak at low levels.  Exception?  Sacred Vengeance, a relatively specialized (and therefore weak) feat which neverthless might be a good option for a Divine Champion or Ranger who took a cleric splash level for domains, and who can pick up Extra Turning in a campaign or PW that features lots of undead, or else just occasionally let you get some use out of a turning ability that's otherwise going to waste b/c it lacks sufficient power to stun a ghoul.

[The Fred]

Well, it's always been true that a lot is setting-/module-dependant. In a game where foes with Disarm, Dispel Magic or other unusual abilities are more common than the norm, builds which are weak to these things become weaker, and others stronger (for example if every enenmy has disarm, playing an unarmed monk is suddenly way better. If every enemy has a dispel, buff-based characters are going to be a lot weaker).

A more common thing is that a module might have a higher or lower magic level, or be undead-heavy or have some other enemy imbalance, both which can alter the power balance a bit. Occasionally you do get big CC additions or modifications and cunning enemy set-ups, too, which radically rebalance the game.