73 réponses à ce sujet

[MANoob]

Thorsson64 wrote...

Even with base classes it's only a good general rule with Sorceror/Wizard/Warlock .

This is a good rule for any class with powerful scaling class features (so probably fighters are excluded ). Of course you may break this rule if it allows you to get a more powerful character in the end or avoid xp penalty. But otherwise it is rather sensible.


P. S. I still would like to know what made you put warlock on the 3rd place in power rating.

Modifié par MANoob, 06 août 2010 - 02:41 .

[The Fred]

I wouldn't say Warlock is the 3rd most powerful, but it is very setting-dependant. The fact that you get effectively unlimited spellcasting power the way a fighter gets unlimited swings of a sword makes you much less dependant on resting and things. However in situations more like the OC I'd say they aren't that great (I played a Warlock on my OC playthrough) , and certainly not good for soloing.

[Happycrow]

Even vaguely creative use of warlock can get potent fast. Level 8 warlock endlessly spamming undead warriors while running around more or less perma-invisible is one example.

[The Fred]

When I first played, I stuck mostly to blasts, usually getting a cool essense and/or shape at each invocation level and then getting the odd utility, like Flee the Scene (which is great), afterwards. However I did recently start to mess around with things like Chilling Tentacles, which does get kind of OPed pretty fast if you're able to lay down loards of them. The issue with Warlocks is more that they get so few invocations, they don't get many combat options and get boring fast. If their main tactic fails they have little to fall back on. They're also quite reliant on having a party around them, or at least a tank, so they can blast away to their heart's content (though skellies are good too). I've often thought that they have a lot of potential, but don't always get the opportunity to show it.

[Pumpernickel]

Hello, what would be a good build for a strictly caster (level 30)? Also, which one would be stronger in terms of damage output, wizard or sorcerer?

[avado]

MANoob wrote...

I would also like to add something myself. In my oppinion it is very important to understand that character building is all about trade-offs. This idea seems really simple, but practice shows that many builders do not understand it. By getting something you are allways not getting something else. By taking a feat you lose an opportunity to take another feat instead. By multiclassing you lose some benefits of your base class.

For example: You want to build a wizard. You start with wizard 30. Then you think about adding ASoC, let's say Wizard 20/ASoC 10. What do you get and what do you lose? You obviously lose 3 epic bonus feats, 1 reflex and 1 fortitude save as well as your familiar levels. You also lose 2 non epic feats to get junk like SF(Spellcraft) and SF(Concentration) - you need it for ASoC. In return you get free Maximize, Quicken as well as Improved Empover, Improved Maximize and Improve Quicken. It this a good tradeoff (yes, it usually is)? Well, you are the builder and it's up to you to decide.

Some benefits can be measured (ab, ac etc), others are not so obvious and only experience can determine the usefulness of some features. It may vary depending on the build and its goals. But it's very important to understand what you are getting with each class, feat or skill. Those who do not think about it often end up with melee builds that have lower ab, ac and dmg than joe average and a few gimmick features that do not really make up for it.

Nicely put!   I laughed alot at nwn Planar turning builds!  Ah... the turning builds 

[Happycrow]

Pumpernickel: the short but honest answer is "it depends."

nwn2db.com has LOTS of builds, with commentary. I'd recommend reading over Thorsson's main post again, then trolling a few, noting the commentaries people make about them.

[Thorsson64]

On holiday at the moment and only intermittent access to internet, but I agree that Warlocks can get boring, but they are definitely powerful. Permanent Invısbılıty even while attacking not good enough for you? (OK you have to recast, but not so big a deal). A ranged attack that attacks from further than you can be seen? Unlimited Attacks that pretty much always hıt, and can do a lot of damage. And attacks that you need to save agaınst or you´re dead (realıstically). Seems pretty powerful to me.

[MANoob]

Unlimited invis is definetely a good thing, but it won't save you from someone who can see through it. And I would argue on 'lots of damage' since all decent melee builds are generally dealing more damage than a warlock, good arcane archers too probably. Also, warlock isn't really about 'save or die' stuff since DCs tend to be really low. Warlock's defensive arsenal is quite poor.

Then there is that annoying caster level bug that limits you to vitrolic blast or 10d6+ blast with no shape vs high SR enemies (Hopefully Kaedrin will fix that soon). Eldrich blast is also subject to deflection(bug), but as far as I remember you ignore deflection if you cast it unarmed(bug?), but you lose weapon enchantment ab bonus on RTA (which you get due to a bug). Bugs ftw!

The point is, in PvP, a warlock will likely lose to bards, clerics and druids (which you ranked lower). In PvM it gets better in environments with limited rest, but generally it does not deal enough damage until you get eldrich master for my liking and doesn't have much utility either.

Modifié par MANoob, 08 août 2010 - 06:33 .

[Thorsson64]

Chıllıng Tentacles has already been mentioned. That´s pretty effectıve until close to Epic (and there are other blasts to target different saves). And once in Epic you can do a lot of damage wıth a 22d6 (or better) blast, especially on a crit. OK it`s only once a round, but it hits 95% of the time, and you usually hit first (second, third). And then you skedaddle with Flee the Scene and repeat against many opponents. Of course ıf haste items are freely available then this changes things, but I`m going from base. Warlocks also get good saves and UMD. Pure Warlock will beat pure Bard or pure Druid IMO. Clerics maybe not, if they chose the right domains/feats and were fully buffed.

[MANoob]

No way a warlock would beat a druid (Storm Avatar). Bards have extended haste, which lasts much longer than Flee the Scene + Requiem, Tentacles are pretty good for PvM, yes.

Modifié par MANoob, 12 août 2010 - 04:45 .

[Mp_Neuromancer]

That's a nice Guide. Thx Thorsson64. I bought the Game ystd and your Guide helps a lot.

[The Fred]

Thing with the Warlocks is that at low levels, their blasts will miss pretty often too (though they get an edge where good armour is readily available) and won't do much damage, making them into essentially bad archers. As they get more reliable and damaging blasts and cool abilities like invisibility and chilling tentacles, etc, they do get really powerful - but as mentioned, they have very little defense aside from the invisibility. So while you might be able to churn out a lot of damage, you're vulnerable to the awesome spells wizards and other casters have at your level. The DR/cold iron helps a little against melee (as does the fact you can get armour where other arcane casters can't) but as a lone warlock I'd still feel kinda vulnerable. In a party situation, though, it's not so bad as you can have a tough melee buddy to engage foes while you run around blasting the hell out of them.

[Thorsson64]

Bards don't have a good Fort Save so a Noxious Blast should be good enough against any non-SR Race. For SR Races I reckon the Warlock will be able to kill the Bard a good % of the time before the Bard gets to sing his Hymn, being as the Bard has to get to 20' while the Warlock hits from 130'. That's if the Bard even has True Seeing - there's a lot of spells he needs at level 3 and he can only take 5 to cover off all opponents.



Druids, I agree the Warlock is in trouble unless he has Kaedrin's (Eldritch Glaive), providing the Druid is setup to fight Warlocks. The thing is that Warlocks don't need to be setup to fight a particular class. The only decisions you need to make are on invocations, and there aren't too many hard choices there.



But this is all PvP. PvM Warlocks are clearly superior. Mind you, this is all moot, no-one would make a pure Druid or a pure Bard.

[Happycrow]

Are you one of the IN or OUT regarding cleric/druid splashes for ranger?

[Thorsson64]

Ranger is a difficult class. Any rule you make can have exceptions, but here's some generic rules for level 30 builds:

1. Go for Dexterity. Sure you can make a Strength-based Dual Wielder, but the AC will really start to suck in Epic levels. Note that this does give somewhat of a problem with damage, so generally you need a way to overcome this (not a problem if weapons come with high damage, otherwise you will need a boost).
2. There's only one real point to stop short of 21 levels and that's at level 13 (for the Camouflage Feat), and even that needs a very particular reason. Splash Rangers are generally not very good, unless you are using it to avoid XP Penalty on a Yuan Ti. And if you've gone to 21 remember that you get bonus Epic Feats at levels 23, 26 & 29 and a sixth Favored Enemy at 25.
3. Do get full HiPS unless you never intend to go Indoors (that means 1 level of SD or 8 of Assassin).
4. Whether you're an Archer or a TWF, you have a poor AC.
5. Fighter mixes are better at Archery & TWF - the edge Rangers get is in their Sneak & Anti-Sneak Skills, so you need to take care of them.

Note that from points 2 & 3 that means at least 22 of your levels are accounted for, and generally 24 (you want SD early and that means you need to take an extra Ranger level to get Bane of Enemies and then you only need 1 more level to get the free Epic Feat).

So what would a splash of Druid bring to such a Ranger? Not a lot really. Woodland Stride at level 2 and Trackless Step at level 3. Nothing stacks between the two classes and there's duplication.

What about Cleric? Well the only benefits would be 2 free Domain Feats and the spells. The spells will be too short and dispellable, so really we are talking about 1 level of Cleric for the free Domain Feats. Rangers are generally not that tight for (non-Epic) Feats and already get Evasion & Toughness for free.

Unless you have a very specific reason for a splash then, Druid & Cleric splashes are not so good for Rangers. What you want are ways that increase your AC & damage (why Ranger 21/Assassin 9 is a seminal build - not only do you get the 5d6 Death Attack, but also access to the Tumble Skill and Extended Improved Invisibility).

[Haventh]

I have a pure SR monk that turns most builds to shreds. The SR screws up everything for pure casters, a monks knockdown is evil, and stunning fist works like a charm vs low/mid will builds, there is the speed, 10 magical dr, mind immunity (immune to bigbys).

If a pure epic monk doesn't give you a lot of problems, it is the player behind the monk that has no idea what he or she is doing, my sr monk turned an epic edm build with scythe into shreds. Monk is easily one of the top 3 most powerful pure builds.

A lot of great info and tips. This will help many players get into serious building I am not much of a builder, never were in nwn 2.

Modifié par Haventh, 18 août 2010 - 09:24 .

[Thorsson64]

Not sure what you mean by "pure SR" Monk. Monk with an SR Race can get a very high SR (at the cost of ignoring other things, like AB, which is already low), but some spells ignore SR. Normal Monk SR is not much use at all against a high CL, and then there's Spell Penetration, Assay Resistance, etc. And only BFH has a mind element of the Bigby Spells.



Strength Melee builds are the bottom of the PvP heap, so you can't judge much from beating them.

[Haplose]

Well, that "pure SR" Monk would have to hit anything first in order to "turn most builds to shreds".

I suppose the example given says a lot. Serious PvP-ers will not use a scythe, maybe unless facing a pure caster or using some tricks like HiPS. For a melee duel in pvp this is suicide.



Unfortunately an SR focused Monk will not hit much in competetive settings, maybe except non-armored casters.

[Haventh]

Haplose wrote...

Well, that "pure SR" Monk would have to hit anything first in order to "turn most builds to shreds".
I suppose the example given says a lot. Serious PvP-ers will not use a scythe, maybe unless facing a pure caster or using some tricks like HiPS. For a melee duel in pvp this is suicide.

Unfortunately an SR focused Monk will not hit much in competetive settings, maybe except non-armored casters.

By pure SR monk i mean 30 lvls as monk + as many improved SR as possible. Also, i think you all underestimate a pure monks speed, add that to good stealth, using corners, doing improved knockdown.

I am telling you all , if a monk is easy to take on, the player behind the monk is fighting wrong.

I mostly use simple base + prestige, two base + prestige. But i say simple or pure classes are more than decent,they are good, but again , it matters how much the player behind knows. Underestimate non extreme power builds in the hands of a experienced/knowledgeable player, and you will be surprised.

I have fought more builds than i can remember with my monks both nwn 1 & 2.

Bottom line, I just wanted to say , that from my experience, monk is among the most powerful if you go pure base class.

Never underestimate.

Modifié par Haventh, 19 août 2010 - 08:51 .

[Haplose]

Well, if left pure then a Monk doesn't even have HiPS... that good stealth is of not much use then... and the Monk is even weaker.



With HiPS I agree, he can be pretty dangerous for certain builds.

[Arkalezth]

You mention a pure monk with EDM. That's not possible. And pure monks are a melee class after all, there isn't a lot a player can do to make a difference in playstyle.



About Circle Kick: I didn't have that problem in my experience. I played a monk recently and it worked well (one extra attack against another enemy, but then returning to the first one). I can't tell if it changed the target some time, but at least it worked that way when I tested it.

[The Fred]

At least in NWN1, monks were difficult to play at low levels but powerhouses at higher ones. Now that we have more PrC combo options, there's more scope to squeeze power out of builds, but monks still get a lot of advantages, it's just that they kind of need to stay pure to get them, which means they lose out on a lot of other options.

[Adam024]

Anyone think this would be a good final build for a character? Or is the sneak attack so valueless due to undead and constructs that it would be too weak?

10th level rogue

5th level invisible blade

7th level assassin

8th level weaponmaster

[Haventh]

Haplose: You missed the point, i was talking about power ranking of the base classes with 30 lvls, HiPS is out of the question then. And stealth with no HiPS works best on monks (improved knockdown or stunning fist from stealth), speed gives them an easy way to use corners. Besides, i had spare skill points. 

Arkalezth wrote...

You mention a pure monk with EDM. That's not possible. And pure monks are a melee class after all, there isn't a lot a player can do to make a difference in playstyle.

About Circle Kick: I didn't have that problem in my experience. I played a monk recently and it worked well (one extra attack against another enemy, but then returning to the first one). I can't tell if it changed the target some time, but at least it worked that way when I tested it.

No, i mentioned that i have fought and killed edm chars, at least. Thats what i tried to say.

I don't have a problem with circle kick, besides , that extra attack a round can be really handy if you are surrounded by many enemies.  So if you can spare the feat, why not. I honestly don't remember how it works, been a few months since i have played monk, and  i have had a lot on my mind. 

That is just the class output, were is the feats? A non fighter or dc will be  very feat starved.

Modifié par Haventh, 19 août 2010 - 06:50 .